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Elderly unfit driver

  • 13-10-2019 8:22pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭


    What can you do about an elderly driver who is no longer fit to drive (and is hostile to any attempt to discuss it)?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    What can you do about an elderly driver who is no longer fit to drive (and is hostile to any attempt to discuss it)?

    The same as you might do for a young unfit driver - report whatever it is you see unfit to the guards. Chances are approaching them about it won’t be received too well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 384 ✭✭Dermo123


    This should be addressed through their GP if known. The GP can arrange for an on road assessment to be done to determine their ability to continue driving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,199 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Going the route of the Gardai should probably be a last resort I feel but I wouldn’t rule it out...IF you detect that there is a genuine and potential danger to themselves or other road users, call in to your local station and relate as you have to us here..

    To understand them you have to see that the end of them driving is a particular checkpoint in life and signifies a pretty big loss of their independence for a person and signals probably the beginning of dependence to an extent on other people. That’s got to be difficult to admit for anyone. If the conversation and the idea of the assessment through the GP doesn’t work there isn’t much in truth that you can do aside from seek the advice of the Guards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,822 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Dermo123 wrote: »
    This should be addressed through their GP if known. The GP can arrange for an on road assessment to be done to determine their ability to continue driving.

    Yes, but GP's are loathe to be the person to remove that independance too.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 80 ✭✭Simmer down


    It's a tough one. I don't think its a Garda matter though.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,275 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Dermo123 wrote: »
    This should be addressed through their GP if known. The GP can arrange for an on road assessment to be done to determine their ability to continue driving.

    That assumes that you have a familial or carers relationship with the person.
    It may well be a neighbour or acquaintance who is unfit and dangerous.
    In such an instance you may not know their GP, you may have no reporting option available other than query NDLS or report the driver to the Gardaí.

    Driving is a privilege, not a right and one needs to be fit and competent to exercise that privilege without putting others at risk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    Had a similar situation with a neighbor who became a bit of a menace on the local roads. If you saw a burgundy Micra coming everyone would get out of the way as it was dangerous.

    What's important to understand is the route cause of the poor driving and address the issue tactfully. Some cases are easily treatable like poor eye sight.

    In our case the lady in question had an issue with her eyes where she could not see further than 20 meters and had tunnel vision but it was treatable. Lucky for us we are rural community and used a combination of community policing, the local priest and the GP to approach her kind of like a intervention.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,634 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Yes, but GP's are loathe to be the person to remove that independance too.
    True but when the alternative is an incompetent person in control of a 1.5-2 tonne weapon and ensuing injury or death, they should make the correct decision


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    How elderly ?
    After around 67-70 they only issue 3 year licences.

    https://www.ndls.ie/how-to-apply.html#licence-term

    Is their eyesight bad, or just bad driver/judgement?
    The eyesight test "should" catch this sort of thing.

    Looks like there are guidelines for doctors to report patients to the NDLS if they do not accept the doctors recommendations not to drive.
    So potentially a close family member could approach the elderly persons doctor...

    https://www.ndls.ie/medical-reports.html#when-a-patient-has-not-accepted-the-doctor-medical-practioner%E2%80%99s-instructions-regarding-medical-fitness-to-drive


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,620 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    It's a tough one. I don't think its a Garda matter though.

    Actually the Gardai can get involved but it's very seldom happens because the family normally take the initiative and persuade the person to stop driving. But if they point blank refuse and they're a danger on the road, the local Gardai Supt. can apply to have them disqualified.

    There are separate provisions, covered in the two subsections copied & pasted below.

    The first one covers 'disease or physical or mental disability' in which case the person can be disqualified until they produce a certificate of fitness. The second one covers basic incompetence in which case they can be disqualified until they can produce a certificate of competencey. Whch means they have to sit a new driving test.

    BTW 'Officer of the GS' means a Supt. or higher.

    Road Traffic Act 1961


    28.—(1) Where an officer of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person who is the holder of a driving licence is by reason of disease or physical or mental disability unfit to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles covered by such licence, such officer may apply to a Justice of the District Court having jurisdiction in the place in which such person ordinarily resides for an order under this subsection, and if the Justice is satisfied that such person is by reason of disease or physical or mental disability unfit to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any such class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles as are within the terms of the application, he may make the appropriate order declaring such person to be disqualified for holding a driving licence until he produces to the appropriate licensing authority a certificate of fitness.


    (2) Where an officer of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person who is the holder of a driving licence is incompetent to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles covered by such licence, such officer may apply to a Justice of the District Court having jurisdiction in the place in which such person ordinarily resides for an order under this subsection in respect of such person, and if the Justice is satisfied that such person is incompetent to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any such class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles as are within the terms of the application, he may make the appropriate order declaring such person to be disqualified for holding a driving licence until he produces to the appropriate licensing authority a certificate of competency.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/28/enacted/en/html#sec28


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Mango Joe


    I came across this a couple of times, both quite recently.

    Firstly where a family of what I would have previously considered to be sane and intelligent people were willing to let their elderly parent continue to drive despite them being clearly unfit and a real danger to other road users. This elderly person was on a tonne of medication and was struggling with memory & cognitive issues to a severe degree.

    Eventually this elderly person almost ran someone of the road by lurching randomly over the white line so this person then followed them home, got their address and went to the Gardai - The family involved was disgusted at this horrible & unreasonable behaviour - Like how dare anyone intervene here and report their poor Father like that ????? They also went to other lengths to keep this person on the road which I'm not going to go into....

    .....I'm not sure what they were waiting for before taking the car keys away, maybe for multiple fatalities, that might have been conclusive enough.

    Absolutely crazy how people can't separate out their emotional response from logic, decency and plain common sense.

    The second example was where a fella at work got t-boned at a junction by a very elderly driver. Yer man got out of his car, surveyed the damage to his own car only, then got back into his car without saying a word....Drove the next 200 metres into the Church car park and happily went to mass....

    Again the family involved were not willing to consider any circumstance where they'd intervene to take they car keys off their parent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 728 ✭✭✭D13exile


    My ex's father was in 6 crashes during the 13 years I knew him, all of which he caused. He would drive straight out into traffic from side roads/car parks (3 crashes), he would "coast" down hills with the engine off to save petrol and therefore had no engine breaking/brake servo assistance when he ran into the rear end of another car (2 crashes) and the last one was he drove a car off the road and into a ditch as he wandered across the median to the wrong side of the road while he was looking at cattle in a field that he used to own. My ex's family thought all of this was hilarious as "no one was hurt". I took a different viewpoint as he also had a nasty habit of barrelling up his laneway to his farmhouse while my kids and other grandkids were all playing around the house. A few times he came close to running over the kids.

    He was a nice old guy but clearly a hazard on the road. How he kept on getting insurance year in year out while causing so many crashes was a mystery to me. He was driving up to a week before he died and by that point, he couldn't see more than ten feet in front of him.

    I know it'll happen to us all one day, but is someone's "independence" worth someone else's life? The NDLS should carry out fitness to drive exams for elderly drivers and thus take the decision away from the local GP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,620 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    D13exile wrote: »
    The NDLS should carry out fitness to drive exams for elderly drivers and thus take the decision away from the local GP.

    That just won't happen. Most elderly drivers would probaly fail the current driving test, everyone knows that but putting hundreds of thousands of elderly people off the road would be political suicide and every TD knows that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Lots of older drivers never sat a test. At one point they were having trouble working through the backlog of people waiting for a test. Their solution was to just give everyone who was on the road a while a licence with no assessment at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,620 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Lots of older drivers never sat a test. At one point they were having trouble working through the backlog of people waiting for a test. Their solution was to just give everyone who was on the road a while a licence with no assessment at all.

    A lot of those people are still in their 50s. They were on their second or subsequent provisional licence and were given a full licence with no test in 1979, a quick and dirty solution to the huge backlog of people waiting for the test!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 728 ✭✭✭D13exile


    coylemj wrote: »
    That just won't happen. Most elderly drivers would probaly fail the current driving test, everyone knows that but putting hundreds of thousands of elderly people off the road would be political suicide and every TD knows that.
    Lots of older drivers never sat a test. At one point they were having trouble working through the backlog of people waiting for a test. Their solution was to just give everyone who was on the road a while a licence with no assessment at all.

    My own father never sat a test but that didn't stop him criticising my driving, and I passed my test on my first attempt:rolleyes:.

    Older drivers come from an era where there were fewer cars, empty roads, slower less powerful cars and not much traffic enforcement (what's changed there I hear you say!). However that shouldn't excuse them from having to undergo a medical fitness to drive exam. A moving tonne+ of metal can and will end someone's life in the hands of an incapable driver. Why should "political considerations" be a factor in not enforcing a law to prove someone's fitness to drive? Perhaps some politician's child being run over by an unfit driver would change that mindset? AND I SINCERELY HOPE THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN BTW!!!!

    We have laws against drunk/drug driving where your fitness to drive is impaired. Surely conditions such as failing eyesight/hearing/reaction times should also count towards the withdrawal of a licence? As someone said, a licence to drive is a privilege, not a right. Society no longer accepts drunken driving. It should follow on that saying "poor old Joe or Mary would be lost without the car" is no excuse, if they have been proven unfit to drive.

    Finally, this isn't a pop at elderly people. My own mother is 75 and is a great driver. Far better than a lot of "L" and "N" platers I see whizzing around, who's own fitness to drive I would seriously call into question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Medical_Issues/Sl%C3%A1inte_agus_Tiom%C3%A1int_Medical_Fitness_to_Drive_Guidelines.pdf

    Witnesses to dangerous driving can contact Traffic Watch lo-call number
    1890 205 805

    When what appears to be dangerous driving, possibly related to medical fitness to drive issues, is reported to a healthcare professional by a third party, it is a misguided kindness to pursue an exclusively medical approach. Dangerous driving is a hazard to the driver and other road users and is a statutory offence so people who witness dangerous driving should report it immediately to the Gardaí. Unless witnessed by the healthcare professional directly, the onus for reporting lies with the person witnessing the alleged dangerous driving. The medical issues can be pursued at a later stage.
    Underlying the professional obligation to manage risk and fitness to drive, there is also a professional and moral obligation to recognise and support mobility through appropriate diagnosis, treatment and support, as the consequences of driving cessation can lead to serious health, mobility and quality of life concerns as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,620 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    D13exile wrote: »
    Older drivers come from an era where there were fewer cars, empty roads, slower less powerful cars and not much traffic enforcement (what's changed there I hear you say!). However that shouldn't excuse them from having to undergo a medical fitness to drive exam.

    You are aware that you need a medical report signed by your doctor to renew your licence when you reach the age of 70?

    https://www.ndls.ie/images/Documents/Forms/Medical_Report_D_501.pdf
    D13exile wrote: »
    Why should "political considerations" be a factor in not enforcing a law to prove someone's fitness to drive?

    Q. Why doesn't the US implement legislation to control who can buy guns and what type of guns they can buy?

    A. Political considerations.

    The vast majority of older Irish people go out to vote at election time. Try running for election on a platform which includes a mandatory driving test when you reach a certain age. Get back to us when you're in Leinster House and tell us when you're going to introduce such a scheme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    The doctor did sign off on their licence but the doctor hasn't seen their driving. They switched doctors to find one more sympathetic to them before that. Don't think it was specifically about licence renewal. Don't know who the doc is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,052 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Lots of older drivers never sat a test. At one point they were having trouble working through the backlog of people waiting for a test. Their solution was to just give everyone who was on the road a while a licence with no assessment at all.

    Not this again. The majority of people who benefited from this are still in their 50's, which is not elderly. If those people were still a danger on the roads, they would have been caught out by now by statistically higher claims or convictions.

    Its different now, the roads are far busier and this practice, along with drink driving, speeding etc are no longer acceptable


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Not this again. The majority of people who benefited from this are still in their 50's, which is not elderly. If those people were still a danger on the roads, they would have been caught out by now by statistically higher claims or convictions.

    Its different now, the roads are far busier and this practice, along with drink driving, speeding etc are no longer acceptable
    1979 was 40 years ago. Most people who were on their second provisional (or later) then would be in their 60s. But this is not really relevant to the thread anyway. I just mentioned it as interesting trivia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    It's a tough one. I don't think its a Garda matter though.

    Really!!?... what difference would it be to some lad driving around sozzled all the time?.. they are both a real danger to other road users.
    The reason some families don’t want hear about it when an elderly relative is clearly a danger is because they will get landed with taxiing them around.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Not this again. The majority of people who benefited from this are still in their 50's, which is not elderly. If those people were still a danger on the roads, they would have been caught out by now by statistically higher claims or convictions.

    Its different now, the roads are far busier and this practice, along with drink driving, speeding etc are no longer acceptable

    Before 1964 there was no driving test at all, so those over 72 or so could have just bought a licence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Re-testing has to be considered, even if it’s at 20 year intervals from first licence.

    My main issues with this would be
    1. Who pays
    2. There would have to be a statutory requirement for employers to excuse employees at no cost to the employee’s leave entitlement for at least the first, and possibly the second attempt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Re-testing has to be considered, even if it’s at 20 year intervals from first licence.

    My main issues with this would be
    1. Who pays
    2. There would have to be a statutory requirement for employers to excuse employees at no cost to the employee’s leave entitlement for at least the first, and possibly the second attempt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,378 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Recalling this:

    https://evoke.ie/2017/06/21/news/irish-news/school-principal-killed-going-to-work

    I drew my own conclusions when I read which directions both were traveling


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Re-testing has to be considered, even if it’s at 20 year intervals from first licence.

    My main issues with this would be
    1. Who pays
    2. There would have to be a statutory requirement for employers to excuse employees at no cost to the employee’s leave entitlement for at least the first, and possibly the second attempt.

    You’d pay for it yourself... like the NCT. It’s your privilege to drive.
    And you’d take holidays or whatever if you needed time off- again it’s a privilege.
    How could you think otherwise?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,937 ✭✭✭SmartinMartin


    coylemj wrote: »
    Actually the Gardai can get involved but it's very seldom happens because the family normally take the initiative and persuade the person to stop driving. But if they point blank refuse and they're a danger on the road, the local Gardai Supt. can apply to have them disqualified.

    There are separate provisions, covered in the two subsections copied & pasted below.

    The first one covers 'disease or physical or mental disability' in which case the person can be disqualified until they produce a certificate of fitness. The second one covers basic incompetence in which case they can be disqualified until they can produce a certificate of competencey. Whch means they have to sit a new driving test.

    BTW 'Officer of the GS' means a Supt. or higher.

    Road Traffic Act 1961


    28.—(1) Where an officer of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person who is the holder of a driving licence is by reason of disease or physical or mental disability unfit to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles covered by such licence, such officer may apply to a Justice of the District Court having jurisdiction in the place in which such person ordinarily resides for an order under this subsection, and if the Justice is satisfied that such person is by reason of disease or physical or mental disability unfit to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any such class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles as are within the terms of the application, he may make the appropriate order declaring such person to be disqualified for holding a driving licence until he produces to the appropriate licensing authority a certificate of fitness.


    (2) Where an officer of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person who is the holder of a driving licence is incompetent to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles covered by such licence, such officer may apply to a Justice of the District Court having jurisdiction in the place in which such person ordinarily resides for an order under this subsection in respect of such person, and if the Justice is satisfied that such person is incompetent to drive any mechanically propelled vehicle whatsoever or any such class or classes of mechanically propelled vehicles as are within the terms of the application, he may make the appropriate order declaring such person to be disqualified for holding a driving licence until he produces to the appropriate licensing authority a certificate of competency.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/28/enacted/en/html#sec28

    THIS is the most relevant post here. I've seen this done twice in the last 15 years, on each occasion the local Superintendent intervened at the request of the family when the driver refused to acknowledge the situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    You’d pay for it yourself... like the NCT. It’s your privilege to drive.
    And you’d take holidays or whatever if you needed time off- again it’s a privilege.
    How could you think otherwise?

    I can think otherwise, because otherwise is the only way this will get buy-in.

    Your response is straight out of the Arlene Foster playbook.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    ninty9er wrote: »
    I can think otherwise, because otherwise is the only way this will get buy-in.

    Your response is straight out of the Arlene Foster playbook.

    Call it what you like, but your deluded if you think someone other than yourself will cover the expense of retesting, and even more deluded to think employers will pay you while your doing it!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,773 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Be interesting to get an accident statistics report from the insurance company's, showing accident's sorted by age?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,420 ✭✭✭✭josip


    coylemj wrote: »
    That just won't happen. Most elderly drivers would probaly fail the current driving test, everyone knows that but putting hundreds of thousands of elderly people off the road would be political suicide and every TD knows that.


    Bring it in now for age 90 and above.
    And reduce by 1 each year.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I will put forth that 90% of all drivers could fail the driving test if made sit it tomorrow. A lot of chance involved in it!

    Last time my grandfather ever drove I was in the car and genuinely afraid for my life. I would actually myself change the entire testing system but definitely at 85 be made do a basic test. Problem is people can deteriorate so quickly from 75 up, or like a granduncle of mine be as spritely as a teenager in his 89s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 728 ✭✭✭D13exile


    coylemj wrote: »
    You are aware that you need a medical report signed by your doctor to renew your licence when you reach the age of 70?

    https://www.ndls.ie/images/Documents/Forms/Medical_Report_D_501.pdf

    I am fully aware of this as my first job was as a temp in the Civil Service back in the 80's where I worked in the section that provided "Fitness to Drive Certificates" to over 70's. Even then I had severe doubts about GP's certifying their long standing Clientele as some of the people who came in to get the Certs couldn't read the form, were extremely hard of hearing and one in particular was not mentally aware of where he was and what he was doing. His wife had to guide him to the counter, explain everything to him and show him where to sign his name, which was an X btw. So yes, I've actually worked in the area (long since defunct I'd say) where I dealt with elderly motorists who wanted a cert to renew their driving licence. I am no medical professional but I could see those who couldn't read a large sign on a wall but yet were "cleared" by their GP to drive a tonne of moving metal??????

    Q. Why doesn't the US implement legislation to control who can buy guns and what type of guns they can buy?

    A. Political considerations.

    The vast majority of older Irish people go out to vote at election time. Try running for election on a platform which includes a mandatory driving test when you reach a certain age. Get back to us when you're in Leinster House and tell us when you're going to introduce such a scheme.

    I am not disagreeing with you and I'm not getting into why our Policitians place getting reelected above doing the right thing. However if drink driving is no longer acceptable (and it once was) by society, then allowing unfit people to operate a vehicle should also be unacceptable to us all. A mandantory medical every 2-3 years from age 70 onwards should be introduced and run by the State. That would take the onus off the local GP to keep their patients happy. The State has introduced the NDLS and the NCT. So why shouldn't it introduce a Driver Fitness test as well?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 728 ✭✭✭D13exile


    coylemj wrote: »
    You are aware that you need a medical report signed by your doctor to renew your licence when you reach the age of 70?

    https://www.ndls.ie/images/Documents/Forms/Medical_Report_D_501.pdf



    Q. Why doesn't the US implement legislation to control who can buy guns and what type of guns they can buy?

    A. Political considerations.

    The vast majority of older Irish people go out to vote at election time. Try running for election on a platform which includes a mandatory driving test when you reach a certain age. Get back to us when you're in Leinster House and tell us when you're going to introduce such a scheme.

    I am fully aware of this as my first job was as a temp in the Civil Service back in the 80's where I worked in the section that provided "Fitness to Drive Certificates" to over 70's. Even then I had severe doubts about GP's certifying their long standing Clientele as some of the people who came in to get the Certs couldn't read the form, were extremely hard of hearing and one in particular was not mentally aware of where he was and what he was doing. His wife had to guide him to the counter, explain everything to him and show him where to sign his name, which was an X btw. So yes, I've actually worked in the area (long since defunct I'd say) where I dealt with elderly motorists who wanted a cert to renew their driving licence. I am no medical professional but I could see those who couldn't read a large sign on a wall but yet were "cleared" by their GP to drive a tonne of moving metal??????

    I am not disagreeing with you and I'm not getting into why our Policitians place getting reelected above doing the right thing. However if drink driving is no longer acceptable (and it once was) by society, then allowing unfit people to operate a vehicle should also be unacceptable to us all. A mandantory medical every 2-3 years from age 70 onwards should be introduced and run by the State. That would take the onus off the local GP to keep their patients happy. The State has introduced the NDLS and the NCT. So why shouldn't it introduce a Driver Fitness test as well?


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