Teacher ''shortage''

frillyleaf

Hi,

Can someone clarify if there is in fact a teacher shortage or is there a teacher shortage for some subjects only ?

I am hearing that schools are crying out for teachers however I also hear that many people at post primary level are emigrating or getting low hours each week.

Can someone please clarify if there is a teacher shortage or not? Any post primary school teachers I have spoken to said there is no jobs out there.

Do they mean no permanent jobs or stability ?

Please advise

Elemonator

I'm barely out of college but I'd imagine it is in some subjects only, like physics. Practically half the people I'd meet in college would be doing teaching/arts degrees and the PME, including many friends. A major barrier for all though is the cost of the PME. It's two years and I think about 12,000 euros.

BDI

There is always a teacher shortage, it helps the payrise each year, nurses always most likely to be assaulted, bus drivers most likely to work terrible hours, once you are in you win.

Also complain if they change anything curriculumwise.

spurious

Shortage of teachers willing to take small hours contracts.

People retire and their job is split in three, surprisingly people like to have a job that allows them to eat and pay for somewhere to live, so don't apply.

Look on educationposts and see what is available.

Let's ignore the troll...annual pay rise indeed.

There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects and in some parts of the country. The union propaganda machine hooks on to this fact in the push for more increases for all new teachers.


They don't mention the cases where there is an oversupply of teachers though, despite the salaries being the same. In fact, I think it was in Business they had to put in a limit due to the graduates coming out.

TheDriver

Some days you can't get enough subs, some days you don't need any. There is definitely a lot less subs available than previous years and less people applying for contracts.

frillyleaf

spurious wrote: »

Shortage of teachers willing to take small hours contracts.

People retire and their job is split in three, surprisingly people like to have a job that allows them to eat and pay for somewhere to live, so don't apply.

Look on educationposts and see what is available.

Let's ignore the troll...annual pay rise indeed.

What do you mean when you say job is split in three?

frillyleaf

salonfire wrote: »

There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects and in some parts of the country. The union propaganda machine hooks on to this fact in the push for more increases for all new teachers.


They don't mention the cases where there is an oversupply of teachers though, despite the salaries being the same. In fact, I think it was in Business they had to put in a limit due to the graduates coming out.

Do you know what subjects there is a shortage in? Is there any chance art is one of them or is this unlikely to be a shortage?

TheDriver

Art wouldnt be in shortage per se but there's a lot less art teachers looking for subbing compared to previous years

frillyleaf

frillyleaf wrote: »

Do you know what subjects there is a shortage in? Is there any chance art is one of them or is this unlikely to be a shortage?

I'm not in the profession, but from what I gather it is in areas like the sciences and Irish in the east of the country.

spurious

frillyleaf wrote:

What do you mean when you say job is split in three?

What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.

frillyleaf

TheDriver wrote: »

Art wouldnt be in shortage per se but there's a lot less art teachers looking for subbing compared to previous years

Thanks Spurious. I wonder if this is because they are moving into different areas or if it because there are more students doing art as a subject. ]

I've been keeping an eye on education posts and there seems to be very few art vacancies advertised compared to other subjects

frillyleaf

spurious wrote: »

What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.

Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this

Random sample

frillyleaf wrote: »

spurious wrote: »

What had been a full hours (proper) job when I was working in it, got split when I retired into three small hours jobs. Some might dress that up as three teachers working where one was before, but that practice is part of the problem. I don't blame anyone in a small hours position for looking elsewhere as much as they can.

Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this

Because they now have 3 teachers on site who are very willing to take on last minute substitution classes to make extra money, and have more free time to take on extra curricular. They are fighting for a job, so will work harder, and are only costing 1/3 of a teacher. There are a lot of pluses for the school.

solerina

I heard of a school near me who have just employed a French teacher that they had to source from France...couldn’t get one in Ireland !! So it’s possibly still an issue in certain subjects or certain areas !!

The area of the county the person is looking is a big factor as well no even seem to mention that.

dory

frillyleaf wrote: »

Why is it beneficial for schools to do this? Is it so the DES doesn't have to pay higher wages? I don' understand why they would do this

As has been said it's mostly about extracurricular, people fighting for jobs etc. In my school we've a school tour every year. 8/9 teachers gone for the week. Those part time teachers fill the gaps. Our new principal got rid of the part time issue, but suddenly created a new issue when there was no one to sub for the tour.

Schools love sending part timers away to a hurling match, less classes to get covered.

emilymemily

Only in some subjects, particularly Irish, the cost of the PME plus the added expense of having to spend time in the gaeltacht is whats putting allot of people off.
There are also shortages in maths and some science subjects.

Ive also encountered schools who dont advertise for subbing positions but leave classes without an appropriate teacher, class is often just supervised by teachers not qualified in the subject. Often its the case when a teacher is out for a couple days or weeks, schools find it hard to get subs for these types of cover.

Snapgal

emilymemily wrote: »

Only in some subjects, particularly Irish, the cost of the PME plus the added expense of having to spend time in the gaeltacht is whats putting allot of people off.
There are also shortages in maths and some science subjects.

Ive also encountered schools who dont advertise for subbing positions but leave classes without an appropriate teacher, class is often just supervised by teachers not qualified in the subject. Often its the case when a teacher is out for a couple days or weeks, schools find it hard to get subs for these types of cover.

No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.

PowerToWait

solerina wrote: »

I heard of a school near me who have just employed a French teacher that they had to source from France...couldn’t get one in Ireland !! So it’s possibly still an issue in certain subjects or certain areas !!

I believe this is now common practice. Employing native speakers with no recognised qualification and often no experience. But, shur they’re fluent.

Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.

SligoBrewer

salonfire wrote: »

Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.

You're assuming she's teaching every day of the week.

I've been certified sick all week, no subs to cover my classes. A week of learning lost.

RealJohn

Snapgal wrote: »

No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.

Don't take this the wrong way but "correcting papers" is "acting as an examiner", and I really don't mean this as an insult but rather, constructive criticism, but if you have that much experience and aren't being offered jobs, you're sending some wrong message. I don't know what that message might be, and it might not be your fault, but you need to look at your process (or get a friendly but critical outside party to look at it) and figure out what you're doing wrong.

SligoBrewer

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You're assuming she's teaching every day of the week.

The conversation was in the context of a shortage of primary teachers, so if there is a shortage, it stands to reason she is full time.

Letting on the take home pay is much less than it actually is taking us for fools and probably putting potential teachers and their parents off teaching as a career.

Random sample

salonfire wrote: »

Out and out lies from unions we hear in the press surely won't help attract potential teachers into the profession

INTO General Sec on Pat Kenny yesterday bemoans his niece taking home €400 as a new teacher and living in Dublin.

With the starting salary of €36950, the take home is closer to €550 per week.

Are you taking pensions and pension levy into account there?

Random sample

Random sample wrote: »

Are you taking pensions and pension levy into account there?

Yes.

The pension levy threshold is actually quite high, close to €30000. Only after that amount is the levy percentage applied.

Noveight

Snapgal wrote: »

No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.

I know that Irish teachers can’t be got in Dublin/Wicklow - I’d imagine you could add other parts of the East in to that too.

Not Mickey Mouse contracts they’re looking to fill either, proper 20+ hours a week jobs.

amacca

salonfire wrote: »

The conversation was in the context of a shortage of primary teachers, so if there is a shortage, it stands to reason she is full time.

Does it though?...does it really?.......would it be possible she doesn't have a full position

I wonder if they are riding them around the mulberry bush at primary level the same way they are in post-primary

perhaps he was telling the truth and theres something you are not aware of????

amacca

amacca wrote: »

Does it though?...does it really?.......would it be possible she doesn't have a full position

I wonder if they are riding them around the mulberry bush at primary level the same way they are in post-primary

perhaps he was telling the truth and theres something you are not aware of????

More likely he was trotting out the union propaganda to soften up the public for the next strike.

Whether or not his niece is full time, the fact is full time new primary teachers are on much more than €400 per week.

dazzeremo

surely one solution would be to enable existing teachers to add teacher specific qualifications ao that they can teach these in demand subjects. subsidis the cost of full degree or reduce the content to LC level. as long as the Teaching Council are around, there will be an issue.

spending 9k on a degree so you might get a few hours in it is ridiculous.

I know the vast majority of teachers on mickey mouse contracts (anything less than 22 hours per week) would gladly take up such an opportunity.

we have enough teachers. let them teach.

amacca

salonfire wrote: »

Whether or not his niece is full time, the fact is full time new primary teachers are on much more than €400 per week.

I wonder how many of them there are................

killbillvol2

salonfire wrote: »

More likely he was trotting out the union propaganda to soften up the public for the next strike.

Whether or not his niece is full time, the fact is full time new primary teachers are on much more than €400 per week.

You really don't have a clue do you?

You should inform yourself a little given your obsession with teachers.

The idea of John Boyle pushing for a strike is beyond laughable. Do you know when the INTO were last on strike?

There are very few full time teachers in the early years out of college. It's casual work mostly and it doesn't pay enough to live in Dublin.

Well done on your long division though. You must have very little to be doing all day.

rainbowtrout

Snapgal wrote: »

No proper jobs in Irish. I have over 17 years experience in teaching Irish, corrected papers and acted as an examiner - I still was not good enough for one or two RPT low hour contracts I interviewed for.I’d advise anybody not to go into teaching unless you are well in with county GAA or have links with a school BOM.

RealJohn wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way but "correcting papers" is "acting as an examiner", and I really don't mean this as an insult but rather, constructive criticism, but if you have that much experience and aren't being offered jobs, you're sending some wrong message. I don't know what that message might be, and it might not be your fault, but you need to look at your process (or get a friendly but critical outside party to look at it) and figure out what you're doing wrong.

I would have assumed that 'acted as an examiner' referred to doing the oral exams as Snapgal is an Irish teacher.

Also, she might not be sending out any wrong message. Plenty of schools in my region that are actively hiring inexperienced teachers over experienced teachers as they are easier to exploit mould and don't know their rights/ aren't as familiar with the run of things coming straight out of college.

Seámus-Púbach

Shortage of full hours jobs is more like it. I've been looking for a maths teaching gig west of the Shannon for the past 2/3 years and not a sniff.

Living in Dublin doesn't have all the appeal that some would have you believe

Snapgal

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would have assumed that 'acted as an examiner' referred to doing the oral exams as Snapgal is an Irish teacher.

Also, she might not be sending out any wrong message. Plenty of schools in my region that are actively hiring inexperienced teachers over experienced teachers as they are easier to exploit mould and don't know their rights/ aren't as familiar with the run of things coming straight out of college.

Thank you Rainbowtrout for above post as that is exactly what has happened to me. Was in the east of the country for over 14 years and unable to redeploy west had to resign from my CID position. People told me with my experience and with my other subjects bring MFL I would walk into a position - 4 years on and still not CID or even own hours. I was so hurt in a local country school where took a job share with a high possibilty of CID as teacher retiring that I turned down a
few other positions as commute was a little longer - did lots
of extra curricular and got on
fantastic with inspection. Got on with staff and students. went through whole interview process as my subjects were spit into two positions. Jobs given to NQTs related to management with strong GAA ties. Students were devasted sending me emails that sept saying how much they would miss
me not only as a teacher but as a kind fair person. I have always been such a positive person - raising money for charities, volunteer abroad etc but feel teaching especially in last few years changing me as a person. I’ll either have to leave this profession or move with family back up East again.
My advice if you want to take up teaching outside Dublin in a country school is to take it up if you well in with a principal/BOM and local GAA politics.

kala85

Snapgal wrote: »

Thank you Rainbowtrout for above post as that is exactly what has happened to me. Was in the east of the country for over 14 years and unable to redeploy west had to resign from my CID position. People told me with my experience and with my other subjects bring MFL I would walk into a position - 4 years on and still not CID or even own hours. I was so hurt in a local country school where took a job share with a high possibilty of CID as teacher retiring that I turned down a
few other positions as commute was a little longer - did lots
of extra curricular and got on
fantastic with inspection. Got on with staff and students. went through whole interview process as my subjects were spit into two positions. Jobs given to NQTs related to management with strong GAA ties. Students were devasted sending me emails that sept saying how much they would miss
me not only as a teacher but as a kind fair person. I have always been such a positive person - raising money for charities, volunteer abroad etc but feel teaching especially in last few years changing me as a person. I’ll either have to leave this profession or move with family back up East again.
My advice if you want to take up teaching outside Dublin in a country school is to take it up if you well in with a principal/BOM and local GAA politics.

Agree with this one hundred per cent. Hard work and dedication may get you through college but unfortunately that's were honesty and getting something on hard work and on merit ends as Ireland is full of nepotism and who you know to enable you to get a job.

Not in all cases but in a good few from what I have seen.

dazzeremo

dazzeremo wrote: »

surely one solution would be to enable existing teachers to add teacher specific qualifications ao that they can teach these in demand subjects. subsidis the cost of full degree or reduce the content to LC level. as long as the Teaching Council are around, there will be an issue.

spending 9k on a degree so you might get a few hours in it is ridiculous.

I know the vast majority of teachers on mickey mouse contracts (anything less than 22 hours per week) would gladly take up such an opportunity.

we have enough teachers. let them teach.

Wasn't there a free course for Maths offered which stopped after a year due to no demand?

r93kaey5p2izun

Deleted User wrote: »

Wasn't there a free course for Maths offered which stopped after a year due to no demand?

Where did you hear that? It ran for at least 5 years. A friend attended UCD for it one of the years and said there was around 60 in the group. It ran in several universities around the country. I'd be very surprised if what you say is true.

RealJohn

Yahya Scruffy Rim wrote: »

Where did you hear that? It ran for at least 5 years. A friend attended UCD for it one of the years and said there was around 60 in the group. It ran in several universities around the country. I'd be very surprised if what you say is true.

It isn't true. It ran for several years in several universities, like you said. Two of my colleagues did it in different years, several years apart.

It has stopped now though, I believe, so it might be the case that the demand has now dropped to the point where they felt there was no need to continue running it. It's still the case that only half of the maths teachers in our place are actually qualified to teach maths though, so maybe it's time schools and teachers were actually incentivised to upskill, rather than being offered a free course but no financial incentive nor a reduction in teaching hours.

dazzeremo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wasn't there a free course for Maths offered which stopped after a year due to no demand?

as far as I know, this was only available to teachers who were timetabled to teach maths anyway.

SligoBrewer

dazzeremo wrote: »

as far as I know, this was only available to teachers who were timetabled to teach maths anyway.

it definitely didn't stop because of the lack of demand

Corkgirl18

The maths course in the university I did it in anyways stopped due to lack of funding. Every year there was more online lectures and less face to face contact so we knew it was heading that way.