how do you solve the charging network problem

irishgeo

I think any new planning for garages or changes to existing ones should include charging points as part of the planning permission. The same with hotels and shopping centers.

All government buildings where public parking is provided should provide charging points too.

Mike9832

Pretty simple

Sell petrol, need a faster charger

KCross

The budget has made mention of new regulations in that area for next year...

In addition, next year we will introduce new regulations to require new buildings with more than 10 parking spaces to provide for the installation of charging points and, from 2025, non-residential buildings with over 20 car parking spaces to install charging facilities.

The problem is you cant force anyone to do it retrospectively so it will only happen for new planning permissions but you have to start somewhere.

The reference to 2025 is disappointing though. Dont know why they cant make it an immediate requirement for any new permissions.

unkel

Slow chargers on the public road are not scalable and the myriad of charging cables will not only be ugly, but also a grave concern in this country with its suing culture. Also a complete waste of your time to plug in for half an hour here, an hour there. We don't currently have 100,000 selling points where you can pick up a pint or a naggin of petrol either, do we? :rolleyes:

Fast charging is all we need. Slow chargers is looking backwards, not forwards. Fast charge for a few minutes once or twice a week is what we should aim for, just how we get our petrol / diesel now. There is a place for slow charging. The majority of people in Ireland live in a house with private parking where they can have a home charger. And I'm sure more and more employers have work charging where a car can be fully charged during a working day

Gumbo

Most new developments have them installed or at least the infrastructure ready. For example, large apartment development in Raheny, ESB guide was to run 2 power cables in for future use as chargers. These would be communial and residents would register and use them. They would be provided by a private firm. Not sure if 2 fast chargers or a
Couple of slow chargers.

Housing development in drumcondra and Finglas, cables and terminals ran from the houses out to the on street parking spots which have been marked for future
Addition of charging posts if the owner requires them.

It’s happening out there, just not very well publicised as they are for private developments.

krissovo

What we need is a proper independent public report and follow up strategy for the growth EV’s in Ireland as all the information today is opinionated and not fact based. Do we know the numbers who can realistically instal home chargers? Do we continue to support Chademo for expansion? Can we predict charging requirements that will limit wait times to 15 mins?

If I was in charge I would based my strategy largely on experience in the Netherlands and would look something like this:

High speed fast chargers strategically placed on all road arteries every ~100km’s and mandated at current motorway service stations (Cashel perfect example) with dedicated slow charging bays for PHEV’s/AC

Prioritize destination chargers (11kw) in cities & towns (shopping centers, hotels, car parks, on street solutions, work). You should juice up before you come into the city (ours are small) but when you come to shop or enjoy a meal plug in and juice for a couple of hours

The money generated from the budget should be focused on the West of the country in current black spots (Kerry, West Cork, Mayo, Sligo etc) and the Government should supplement these (Norway model)

ED E

unkel wrote: »

The majority of people in Ireland live in a house with private parking where they can have a home charger. And I'm sure more and more employers have work charging where a car can be fully charged during a working day

Id love to run the numbers on that in a GIS package but Im not sure the data exists.

Lots of suburbia has ONE driveway space. Most have at least two cars. In an all EV future (which I support) we need to stop allowing motorists store their private metal boxes on public roads. The Japanese model, no space - no car purchase.

Thats a big political hot potato.

Creamy Goodness

Follow the Norwegians.

Mike9832

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Follow the Norwegians.

Selling oil to plebs?

To pay for it

krissovo

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Follow the Norwegians.

They still queue for juice in Norway, in fact the Norway model only works for major population centers and only just adapting.

Alkers

I feel the government shouldn't do anything with slow chargers, they should be for the private sector in shopping centres, hotels etc to provide.
If you need to rely on a slow charger regularly you have the wrong car.
Fast chargers along the national primary network initially then look at the regional network but not located at focal points to avoid locals hogging charge points.
Even in apartment blocks, rapids are likely needed unless you have as many chargers as there are EVs which won't happen

ELM327

krissovo wrote: »

They still queue for juice in Norway, in fact the Norway model only works for major population centers and only just adapting.

Only if you have an out of date standard like Chademo.
If you want CCS you will not queue at most places. If you have a CCS equipped Tesla you won't queue at all.


The norwegian model is expanding massively. Lots of non Tesla sites with 6-8+ CCS chargers, Ionity, Circle K, and the indigenous Fortum and Gronn Kontakt. The latter three provide 50kW Chademo at most points except HPC which are CCS only (due to chademo limitation to 125a/500v 62.5kW)

krissovo

Norway is expanding but in Norway they neglected the rural areas just like we have in the West. We can not follow how they rolled out the Network in Norway. In Ireland we have so many people from The West living and working in our major population areas who regularly visit home. Our family networks are
Much stronger and unique than in Northern Europe.

kirving

ED E wrote: »

In an all EV future (which I support) we need to stop allowing motorists store their private metal boxes on public roads. The Japanese model, no space - no car purchase.

Thats a big political hot potato.

Well, we do pay for the privilege in the form of motor tax.

I would agree with the no space - no car purchase in principle, if not in practice just yet. My family home is the last house a cul de sac and if I'm home there are 4 cars, soon to be 5. We can get 2 on the driveway.

That problem however is a function of a centralised jobs market, rent so high that children with good jobs can't afford to move out, and inadequate public transport (my family home has one of the best bus services in the country, and it's still inadequate), poor cycling infrastructure, among other things.

The Japanese model is built of the back of incredible public transport infrastructure.

I'm fully in support of an all EV future too, but am more in favour of a "build it and they will come" approach rather than introducing more bans or disincentives, etc.

As misguided as the 2008 CO2 motor tax was in favouring diesels, the policy was extremely successful in incentivising people over to diesel for a relatively small saving in overall motoring costs.

ELM327

krissovo wrote: »

Norway is expanding but in Norway they neglected the rural areas just like we have in the West. We can not follow how they rolled out the Network in Norway. In Ireland we have so many people from The West living and working in our major population areas who regularly visit home. Our family networks are
Much stronger and unique than in Northern Europe.

If you watch Bjorn's road trips this year vs 2014 in Norway you can see the massive leap they made since then.
You have to remember, you don't need a fast charger in your locale. You need a fast charger on routes that people regularly travel long distances on.


Even when I had my 24kWh leaf a couple of years ago, there wasnt a single part of the country that I couldnt reach. And that tech (90-110km range, no CCS) is seriously outdated now.


I'd be quite happy if we were put on par with Norway.
In fact, a few more Ionity sites and we're not far away.All that is needed if for maybe 4 more.
M9, N3-N5 (ie somewhere northwest bound) and maybe one near Maghera in the North of Ireland to facilitate travel across the wee province. One near belfast on the M/N1 too.


We're only a small island.
Most new EVs can traverse East to West without a charge, and north to south on 1 charge (maybe 2 in winter). The only problem at the moment is if you're heading north west.

kanuseeme

unkel wrote: »

Slow chargers on the public road are not scalable and the myriad of charging cables will not only be ugly, but also a grave concern in this country with its suing culture. Also a complete waste of your time to plug in for half an hour here, an hour there. We don't currently have 100,000 selling points where you can pick up a pint or a naggin of petrol either, do we? :rolleyes:

Fast charging is all we need. Slow chargers is looking backwards, not forwards. Fast charge for a few minutes once or twice a week is what we should aim for, just how we get our petrol / diesel now. There is a place for slow charging. The majority of people in Ireland live in a house with private parking where they can have a home charger. And I'm sure more and more employers have work charging where a car can be fully charged during a working day

I could see the benefit of 100000 charging points, if it was to do with grid storage, but its ugly and a compensation wave waiting to happen.

Fast chargers are a multiple more expensive and associated problems with everyone wanting to get home at the same time.

Its a fine ideal to charge once a week, but that requires a huge battery or a small weekly commute.

I don't mind to plug in for 30 minutes or even 10 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes turns into an hour.

ELM327

If you charge at home and you have 400-500km range then you will rarely need public charging .
Same if you have reliable work charging.

Fast charging should be for the 1% of journeys outside of the norm.

marcos_94

Iv aklways wondered on the possibility of using street lights as a source of power for chargers, as in have maybe two charging cables/spots on both sides of every street light (that already has parking in front of it). I know there is testing going on in the UK and only just found now theyre testing it in Dun Laoghaire (https://www.thejournal.ie/street-lamps-electric-vehicle-4054739-Jun2018/). Would reduce the work required to install chargers as the electrical infrastructure is already present should have good capacity for demand on the street light lines

ednwireland

public transport ???

ELM327

ednwireland wrote: »

public transport ???

.

Thatcher wrote:

A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure.

Silent Running

ednwireland wrote: »

public transport ???

There isn't any where I live.

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

There isn't any where I live.

Unless you live in the outskirts of Dublin and you want to go to An Lár, chances are this is true for everyone.


Furthermore I don't want public transport anyway

159conor

For people living in citys I would put in a few 100 kw dc fast chargers in lidl and aldi charging once a week would probably be just fine for a lot of people only doing city journeys especially in a new car with a 50 kWh battery and the ability to make use of > 50 kW. I dont see the point of installing 7kw charging posts in a place you might only be 30 min

159conor

For city charging something like installing 100 kW charging in supermarkets would be a good plan as you would only be staying 30 to 40 min there. I dont understand why Lidl is installing 7kw charging in places you might only be 30 min. In a modern car 50 kWhs once a week might be all you you need.

Lumen

159conor wrote: »

I dont understand why Lidl is installing 7kw charging

Cost. A 7kW charger costs a few hundred. A 100kW DC fast charger is tens of thousands.

Alkers

Lumen wrote: »

Cost. A 7kW charger costs a few hundred. A 100kW DC fast charger is tens of thousands.

And they want you to stay as long as possible

charlieIRL

I think a continuation of what they are doing - decent charging points on main corridors through Ireland. I.e. M4/M6 has 2 decent ones now for east to west driving. Need the same travelling diagonally (M7/8/9) and a few heading north - west to south - east.
Rest of charging can be done at home.

Mike9832

charlieIRL wrote: »

I think a continuation of what they are doing - decent charging points on main corridors through Ireland. I.e. M4/M6 has 2 decent ones now for east to west driving. Need the same travelling diagonally (M7/8/9) and a few heading north - west to south - east.
Rest of charging can be done at home.

Not with 1 million EV 2030 target

charlieIRL

Mike9832 wrote: »

Not with 1 million EV 2030 target

I’ll be too old to drive by the time there’s a million EV’s on our roads!!!

unkel

charlieIRL wrote: »

I’ll be too old to drive by the time there’s a million EV’s on our roads!!!

You'll summon the car to where you're sitting in your wheel chair. The car will lift you up into the front passenger seat, store the wheel chair in the boot and drive you to the destination of your choice :pac:

innrain

Lumen wrote: »

Cost. A 7kW charger costs a few hundred. A 100kW DC fast charger is tens of thousands.

It will be interesting to see if they don't change to rapids when ESB charges will kick in.
I was at the Lidl in Rathfarnham and the huge junction box behind the little charger made me wonder. I think they are 2x22kW so maybe they planned for spare power.

Stealthirl

Why not just start with a 2nd DC charger at busy locations and work from there.

Dont be at yourself

Banks of fast chargers should be every 50km along the motorway network. Combined with home charging, this will meet the needs of 90% of the population.

For those without home charging, we should mandate that any multi-story car park, shopping centre, hotel, retail park, large employer etc hAve a certain amount of slow chargers. This can accommodate those who don't have access to a home charger.

Of course, the biggest shift has to be in people's willingness to pay for charging. Too many people baulking at paying even a few quid to charge, but we need to create conditions that will appeal to private operators.

Lumen

A quick Google suggests...

"The primary and secondary road network in Ireland is some 5,306km long and is made up of motorways, dual carriageways and single lane roads"

So how much would it cost to put a fast charging station every 100km? Not just the motorways, all national roads too.

You'd only need 53 of them, minus the 9 current/scheduled Ionity. Maybe they cost half a million each. So that's 22m euros.

How much does the government plan to spend on EV incentives as sales increase?

Why not scrap the grants and rebates and spend the money on fast charging procurement/grants?

It would save EV buyers a fortune, more than offsetting the loss, as they wouldn't need to buy the most expensive long range cars.

And it would be more environmentally friendly as it would require less battery production.

I'm sure this is not an original thought.

ELM327

Stealthirl wrote: »

Why not just start with a 2nd DC charger at busy locations and work from there.

This is the best and simplest idea.

zg3409

ELM327 wrote: »

This is the best and simplest idea.

You need multiple next to each other at busy spots and to allow for one charger single point of failure. So 2 minimum probably more than one per 100km in Dublin!

If you put them at intersections of national routes, then you could minimise the number of individual sites. If we assumed all cars could make 160km, the sums might make interesting reading. I heard one fast charger is around 60,000 all in including construction works. Put them next to power lines for access to power and the chipper vans would appear to serve the needy. If we dropped grant for car and rely on UK imports and UK grant then the money could be put into chargers.

ELM327

One would suggest the grant could be dropped with no impact on price to the end user.

Lumen

zg3409 wrote: »

You need multiple next to each other at busy spots and to allow for one charger single point of failure. So 2 minimum probably more than one per 100km in Dublin!

I meant one site per 100km, not one charger.

But I see that one site per 50km would probably work better in cases where you're doing a round trip.

Doing 90km in one direction and 90km back again plus a bit of driving around would stretch a fair few "cheap" EVs.

Talking of the UK, it is really amazing how crap their fast charger provision is. This is everything of 100kW and over according to ZapMap, excluding Tesla.

charlieIRL

Just heard today County Councils are starting to impose conditions on commercial planning applications that a “minimum 10% of parking spaces provided shall be provided with electrical connection points to allow for functional electric vehicle charging” and “the remaining spaces shall be fitted with ducting for electrical connection points to allow for future fit out of charging points”

Wonder how this will work, will they be charging for use of them to deter all day hoggers or have 30mins free then charge?

Only thing though, it just says to provide connection points and not actual chargers.

KCross

charlieIRL wrote: »

Just heard today County Councils are starting to impose conditions on commercial planning applications that a “minimum 10% of parking spaces provided shall be provided with electrical connection points to allow for functional electric vehicle charging”...


Only thing though, it just says to provide connection points and not actual chargers.

I think that is clear enough. It says functional EV charging so it includes a live connection. They might just allow 3 pin socket but it has to allow you to charge an EV.

charlieIRL wrote: »

Wonder how this will work, will they be charging for use of them to deter all day hoggers or have 30mins free then charge?

Its just a planning stipulation. The council wont have control over the management and use of the charge points. That will be up to the individual premise owners to decide.