Leasing a field to a farmer

beveragelady

As a follow-up to this thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057823832 and this one https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057825282.....

I'm not a farmer, and I don't have a herd number.

I have discovered that a farmer has been receiving payments based on calculations that include a field that I own. My worry is that he's moving towards adverse possession.

My proposed solution is to offer to lease the field to the farmer for a nominal sum, with strict conditions.* I'm hoping they pick up on the implied threat that if they don't cooperate I will go back to the dept of ag with the information that they have been cashing in when they had no right to.

I'm willing to be very reasonable and accommodating here but I absolutely can't allow the current situation to continue.

Does anybody see any obvious pitfalls with my plan?

Out of curiosity, what is the going rate per hectare of poor-quality land?

Thanks very much for any input.

*Proposed conditions:
The lease will be on a yearly basis.
I have a beehive in the field that will remain where it is and I will have continued access to the hive and the field.
No heavy machinery is to be brought into the field and no alterations made to drainage, hedges etc without consultation.

uck51js9zml2yt

Put him off the land and take ownership back. Give yourself a year and then talk to him about a proper lease next year.
If he has nothing on the field now just padlock the gates.

893bet

Adverse ownership is pretty hard to get.

Calling to him with a witness saying you own it would reset the clock.

Is he actually using the field or just claiming payments?

krissovo

I didn’t know it was “thing”, sorry to hijack but i have a verbal agreement with my neighbor who is a dairy farmer to cut my 6 acre field for silage. Would i be at risk? I think i will get something in writing anyway.

emaherx

krissovo wrote: »

I didn’t know it was “thing”, sorry to hijack but i have a verbal agreement with my neighbor who is a dairy farmer to cut my 6 acre field for silage. Would i be at risk? I think i will get something in writing anyway.

Adverse possession means possession of land inconsistent with the title of the true owner.

In order to bring a successful claim for adverse possession, the person making the claim needs to be in sole and exclusive occupation and possession of the land for 12 years or more.

The person making the claim must exclude others, including the registered owner, from the land for over 12 years.

No, nobody can claim your land because they are cutting the grass for you, as long as you use your land at least once in a 12 year period there is no way anyone can claim it. Standing in your field is you using it.

Likewise for the OP using your land for entitlements does not exclude you from your land so the farmer cannot simply claim your land no matter how long he was getting away with this unknown to you. The fact that you regularly tend your bees on your land should be more than enough proof you were never excluded from your land.

I'd suspect the farmer didn't have enough land for his entitlements and chose a plot he knew wasn't being farmed to activate his entitlements. There is no claim of ownership in doing this although you are right to be annoyed. Personally if it was my land I'd lease it's use with whatever terms suit you but to someone else entirely who is more honest.

beveragelady

The field isn't properly fenced and I can't afford to get it done at the moment. Any bits of fencing I do myself mysteriously get damaged. I am resigned to seeing his cattle in the field and I just don't let it bother me.

I am 100% satisfied that legally he has no claim to the field whatsoever. I need him to accept that this is the case and stop his intimidation tactics. Signing a lease under threat of a visit from the dept of agriculture would achieve this.

I need him to know that I have won this battle. An experienced bouncer once told me that you should always give a bully an honourable way out of a conflict. If I let him continue to graze the land for a laughably low price he can tell himself he has won and it will actually cost me nothing.

blackbox

beveragelady wrote: »

The field isn't properly fenced and I can't afford to get it done at the moment. Any bits of fencing I do myself mysteriously get damaged. I am resigned to seeing his cattle in the field and I just don't let it bother me.

I am 100% satisfied that legally he has no claim to the field whatsoever. I need him to accept that this is the case and stop his intimidation tactics. Signing a lease under threat of a visit from the dept of agriculture would achieve this.

I need him to know that I have won this battle. An experienced bouncer once told me that you should always give a bully an honourable way out of a conflict. If I let him continue to graze the land for a laughably low price he can tell himself he has won and it will actually cost me nothing.

It's your neighbour who is legally obliged to repair the fences to keep his animals in his own field.

beveragelady

blackbox wrote: »

It's your neighbour who is legally obliged to repair the fences to keep his animals in his own field.

I know, but it's all part of his insistence that it's his field. I am not dealing with a reasonable person here.

epfff

beveragelady wrote: »

blackbox wrote: »

It's your neighbour who is legally obliged to repair the fences to keep his animals in his own field.

I know, but it's all part of his insistence that it's his field. I am not dealing with a reasonable person here.

Why be reasonable back?
Its his duty to keep animals under control
Why do you think he will sign lease?

beveragelady

epfff wrote: »

Why be reasonable back?
Its his duty to keep animals under control
Why do you think he will sign lease?

I'm a reasonable person and there's nothing to be gained by letting this escalate into all-out war.

He'll sign because if he doesn't he'll have the dept of ag asking why he claimed farm payments he has no right to. The penalties for this are, I'm reliably informed, severe. This chap already has a conviction for fraud, he won't want that sort of scrutiny again.

Markcheese

Am I missing something here?
There's reasonable, and then there's being daft...
He's not going to see you as reasonable he's gonna see you as a sucker,!!,
You have title for this land yeah? Why does he think it is or should be his..?

beveragelady

Markcheese wrote: »

Am I missing something here?
There's reasonable, and then there's being daft...
He's not going to see you as reasonable he's gonna see you as a sucker,!!,
You have title for this land yeah? Why does he think it is or should be his..?

I don't care if he thinks I'm a sucker if I'm getting exactly what I want. It's to my advantage if he thinks he's winning, it means he might stop some of his less honourable tactics.

He's thick and mean and dishonest. That's all you need to know to understand him. I'm a blow-in and I happened to buy a house that was occupied for years by someone he hates. He can't let go of old grudges so he transferred them onto me. He knows he doesn't own that field but he wants it and he thinks that if he's awkward enough I'll just give up.

epfff

beveragelady wrote: »

epfff wrote: »

Why be reasonable back?
Its his duty to keep animals under control
Why do you think he will sign lease?

I'm a reasonable person and there's nothing to be gained by letting this escalate into all-out war.

He'll sign because if he doesn't he'll have the dept of ag asking why he claimed farm payments he has no right to. The penalties for this are, I'm reliably informed, severe. This chap already has a conviction for fraud, he won't want that sort of scrutiny again.

I disagree with the penalties
I believe if it was good agriculture condition on 31 of may each year and no one else claimed the department will say no foul regardless of ownership.
If he also shows he was actually grazing with livestock he definatly qualifies from my reading of the terms and conditions.

No one likes inspection and you reporting may trigger one but id imagine it would be a desk inspection of the piece of ground. When no one else claimed each year previously i cant see it causing any major problems.

I am not an expert but i do know of simularish case that didnt come to anything after the hobby farmer took legal steps to claim some money off local farmer who had claimed on land.

If i was to do this i would make a sfp return on the piece of ground next year creating a double claim with department which will automaticly hold all payments with both parties untill matter is solved.

If one party getting no payment it wont matter to them where if you getting large/substantial payment if will matter.

beveragelady

epfff wrote: »

I disagree with the penalties
I believe if it was good agriculture condition on 31 of may each year and no one else claimed the department will say no foul regardless of ownership.
If he also shows he was actually grazing with livestock he definatly qualifies from my reading of the terms and conditions.

No one likes inspection and you reporting may trigger one but id imagine it would be a desk inspection of the piece of ground. When no one else claimed each year previously i cant see it causing any major problems.

I am not an expert but i do know of simularish case that didnt come to anything after the hobby farmer took legal steps to claim some money off local farmer who had claimed on land.

If i was to do this i would make a sfp return on the piece of ground next year creating a double claim with department which will automaticly hold all payments with both parties untill matter is solved.

If one party getting no payment it wont matter to them where if you getting large/substantial payment if will matter.

As I said in the op, I'm not a farmer, no herd number, so I can't claim SFP.

The dept of ag person I spoke to had a different interpretation of the rules to yours.

iano.p

beveragelady wrote:

He'll sign because if he doesn't he'll have the dept of ag asking why he claimed farm payments he has no right to. The penalties for this are, I'm reliably informed, severe. This chap already has a conviction for fraud, he won't want that sort of scrutiny again.

Sure he is getting the land for nothing now. I would say he will laugh at a lease. Just report him and keep him off the land

um7y1h83ge06nx

I'm not a farmer but you are much too chilled out about this OP.

Maybe it's because I'm originally from north Kerry but I would not stand for all you say he has done across multiple threads, defend yourself and your land. Only thing people like that understand is a dirty war, don't budge one inch.

Good luck.

epfff

beveragelady wrote: »

epfff wrote: »

I disagree with the penalties
I believe if it was good agriculture condition on 31 of may each year and no one else claimed the department will say no foul regardless of ownership.
If he also shows he was actually grazing with livestock he definatly qualifies from my reading of the terms and conditions.

No one likes inspection and you reporting may trigger one but id imagine it would be a desk inspection of the piece of ground. When no one else claimed each year previously i cant see it causing any major problems.

I am not an expert but i do know of simularish case that didnt come to anything after the hobby farmer took legal steps to claim some money off local farmer who had claimed on land.

If i was to do this i would make a sfp return on the piece of ground next year creating a double claim with department which will automaticly hold all payments with both parties untill matter is solved.

If one party getting no payment it wont matter to them where if you getting large/substantial payment if will matter.

As I said in the op, I'm not a farmer, no herd number, so I can't claim SFP.

The dept of ag person I spoke to had a different interpretation of the rules to yours.

Dont need anything to be a farmer
Register with department and become a tillage farmer and claim on your plot.

If your crop doesn’t grow it just means you are a bad farmer but still a farmer.

You are not claiming any money fro eu just claiming to farm your property.

Effects

beveragelady wrote: »

I have discovered that a farmer has been receiving payments based on calculations that include a field that I own. My worry is that he's moving towards adverse possession.

Rat him out to the department. Solves 3/4 of your problems.

K.G.

Just one thing is are you the fully registered oowner of this land with the associated paperwork.A simple way to bring things to a head is put an application to claim this land for sfp purposes ,then he ll have to prove his right to claim this ground.so will you but he ll the be drawing a nice few issues to sort on himself.

sonnybill

12 years using it without payment and he can go for adverse possession or otherwise known as squatters rights on your field

sonnybill

And to strengthen his claim he will produce DAFM maps of it , receipts for stakes/wire for upkeep , fertiliser that he supposedly applied etc etc, don’t be a fool and get him shifted ASAP

Effects

sonnybill wrote: »

12 years using it without payment and he can go for adverse possession or otherwise known as squatters rights on your field

It's not as simple as that.

rule supreme

Remove any gate you have on the field ,might keep his stock out till you get it sorted out .

sonnybill

Effects wrote: »

It's not as simple as that.

He can go to his solicitor and commence the process after 12 years I’ve seen it done, even if he doesn’t succeed it could make life very difficult down the road for OP as it could prevent e.g a future sale of the field , a planning application etc, if he bad minded or a bully and there is history there he sounds like he’d be well fit for it

Reggie.

What part of the country are you in OP

blue5000

Mod note; You seem to be getting better advice over on the legal forum, so we'll close this one.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057823832