What depth rims for touring bike?

Arequipa

Hi!

How are you all keeping?
I am planning to build up a tour bike over the winter months.
The plan is ti frame, disk brakes and carbon rim wheels.

One issue I am looking for advice on is how deep the carbon rims should be...
I plan on doing long distance bike tours, a bit of commuting and maybe the odd club spin...I weigh about 85kgs and am looking for nice wheels which wont be a liability in crosswinds..

What depth carbon rims would you recommend?

Any recommends on good value, quality rims...maybe Chinese made rims?

Thank you!

A

John Hutton

Arequipa wrote: »

Hi!

How are you all keeping?
I am planning to build up a tour bike over the winter months.
The plan is ti frame, disk brakes and carbon rim wheels.

One issue I am looking for advice on is how wide the carbon rims should be...
I plan on doing long distance bike tours, a bit of commuting and maybe the odd club spin...I weigh about 85kgs and am looking for nice wheels which wont be a liability in crosswinds..

What width carbon rims would you recommend?

Any recommends on good value, quality rims...maybe Chinese made rims?

Thank you!

A

Don't go for carbon.

Go for double wall with a large amount of spokes, preferably hand built.

Arequipa

Thank you for the reply..
I have a pair of wheels...open pro rims, dt swiss 240s hubs and sapim spokes which I got build and they are bulletproof...

But I follow ultra endurance riders who ride the Indipac, Trans Am ec and some of the, ride bikes with carbon rims... they look very cool...

Do u just think the alu wheels will be stronger and more durable?

A

gman2k

A touring bike needs strong wheels, not light ones. ( Not that cheap Chinese carbon rims will be necessarily light)
The width of the rim will depend on what the frame can take for tyres.
I'd recommend a 36hole Mavic disc specific rim, with a dynamo front hub as an option.
Either Rose bikes or one of the main German websites are your best bet for getting touring wheels.
I have a pair of 700c DT Swiss rimmed wheels on Shimano hubs (dynamo front) but only 32h and they were just over €100.
The weight of the bike even with just a couple of bags can be substantial.
For more dedicated touring I'll be building either 26" or 650b onto 36h XT disc hubs. The 26" (36h) rims are becoming very hard to find now, but their are some on the German sites.
Forget about carbon, any good wheel builder will say the same if you say they are for a tourer.

Arequipa

Thanks mate!
If you look at the late, great Mike Hall's setup for the Indipac race...this was what I was considering..

I am thinking of light /bike packing mostly and maybe the odd tour with panniers...but mostly lightweight...and fast!


https://road.cc/content/tech-news/219030-bike-check-mike-halls-kinesis-gf-ti-ready-5300km-india-pacific-wheel-race

Arequipa

By the way... I meant to ask...what depth rim for touring.... not width...!!?

tigerboon

gman2k wrote: »

A touring bike needs strong wheels, not light ones. ( Not that cheap Chinese carbon rims will be necessarily light)
The width of the rim will depend on what the frame can take for tyres.
I'd recommend a 36hole Mavic disc specific rim, with a dynamo front hub as an option.
Either Rose bikes or one of the main German websites are your best bet for getting touring wheels.
I have a pair of 700c DT Swiss rimmed wheels on Shimano hubs (dynamo front) but only 32h and they were just over €100.
The weight of the bike even with just a couple of bags can be substantial.
For more dedicated touring I'll be building either 26" or 650b onto 36h XT disc hubs. The 26" (36h) rims are becoming very hard to find now, but their are some on the German sites.
Forget about carbon, any good wheel builder will say the same if you say they are for a tourer.

Rose have a good selection of 26" both disc and rim. Hard to find otherwise. Prices from about €100. Got a set recently for an old mountain bike. Had them within the week

thelawman

have a look here, might suit,


https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels/products/hunt-34-aero-wide-disc-wheelset

Arequipa

Evening.. thank you for the feedback...
Yea, I am aware of Rose and have bought stuff from them... seem very professional & good quality...

I have a set of Hunt x4 Season wheels on one of my bikes.. they seem really good!

Diarmuid

Arequipa wrote: »

Thank you for the reply..
I have a pair of wheels...open pro rims, dt swiss 240s hubs and sapim spokes which I got build and they are bulletproof...

But I follow ultra endurance riders who ride the Indipac, Trans Am ec and some of the, ride bikes with carbon rims... they look very cool...

Do u just think the alu wheels will be stronger and more durable?

A

You might want to get some carbon wheels because the look nice, which is fair enough but for touring, they won't perform as well as the pair you currently have.
And by perform I mean, tough, load bearing and easily repairable. If you are doing traditional touring, you are going to be traveling a good few hours and at relative low average speed. The aero advantages of deep sections are pointless at those speeds.

Arequipa

Hi Diarmuid!
Thanks for the feedback..

So maybe open pro, disk compatible rims with dt swiss 240s hubs and sapim spokes will do the trick again?

I think a big part of the carbon rim wheels is the cosmetic factor... ie they look fast and cool!!

A

dave_o_brien

For the record, there is nothing inherently weak about a carbon rim, so I wouldn't be concerned about them from a loading perspective. It is unlikely you will see any benefit from going aero unless you are fast touring, so don't go for a deep rim as it will add weight.

The big reason for completely avoiding carbon is the ability to repair and maintain the wheel as you tour. They're stiffer, and so harder to true if they become untrue. They are nearly impossible to repair by an average joe if the carbon becomes damaged, frayed or cracked. On a low spoke wheel, if a spoke breaks, the wheel should be repaired before riding it again because of the uneven distribution of the load through the remaining spokes; with a high spoke count wheel, this will be more evenly distributed.

If you have a support team with spare wheels and excellent mechanics and carbon repair specialists wherever you go, fire ahead. Otherwise, stick to the traditional.

Seaswimmer

I was in a similar situation to you a couple of years ago. I was also building a touring bike and coincidentally weigh the same as you. I had always used Open Pro rims with 36 spokes and found them fantastic.. However someone on here (Brownian maybe) advised me to get a stronger wheel. The Open Pros are rated to 100kg which when you weigh 85kg dosent give much leeway when you add in the bike and anything else you may carry. I eventually went for 36 hole A719 rims built on a nice simple Shimano Deore hub and front dynamo hub. There is not a day that I regret getting them. I have done 1000s of kms on them and they are so durable and comfortable. I always cycled 23 or 25c tyres but I have 28c on these. I was getting a frame built from scratch so I got the rear spacing to be 135mm to accommodate these wheels. This may not be a option for you but certainly for the type of light touring I do (7 litre bar bag and 24 litre saddlebag) they are ideal..


https://www.rosebikes.com/rose-hybrid-wheelset-28700c-mavic-a-719-shimano-dh3n72-fht610-640708

Weepsie

I've similar to above but went with 32 hole A319 rims on 105 and DH-3N80 hub. One broken spoke from a pothol in 1000s of km and the wheel was grand until I could get it looked at.

Looking to get some built up again but with Deore and the disc equivalent of that dynamo and going 36 hole and a719 if possible. I'm going for rims that can be used wth caliper brakes too if I can help it.

Actually with that. I've some disc dynamo touring handbuilts form the UK too. DT swiss rims. SP Hub. Can't remember what the back one is. They look great with the right tyre on them

brownian

Another nice option could be Al33s - 33mm depth, but they are metal, so an alloy rim and brake track. I've a pair from Wheeltec.nl that I really like.

cdaly_

Seaswimmer wrote: »

The Open Pros are rated to 100kg which when you weigh 85kg dosent give much leeway when you add in the bike and anything else you may carry.

Don't forget that's per wheel. So you have a total load capacity of 200kg and I'd say you'd be hard pressed to reach that unless you're glamping...

Arequipa

Evening!
And thank you for the fab feedback...
I see where you are coming from re repair of carbon wheels...
I also appreciate that the aero gains are mostly going to be irrelevant or of negligible difference...

That is very interesting re the Open Pro..200kgs combined weight...
I have found them really strong and reliable...
Cliff in Harry's built me x2 sets of wheels with this spec.. he's such a nice guy and top wheelbuilder...

I will check out the other rims you recommend....

A

David6330

cdaly_ wrote: »

Don't forget that's per wheel. So you have a total load capacity of 200kg and I'd say you'd be hard pressed to reach that unless you're glamping...

That doesn't sound right. 100kg weight limit for the wheelset I'd thought.

rider+bike+load < 100kg ?

magicbastarder

it'd be a poor wheelset that could only take a 100KG load. campagnolo advertise a max limit of 110kg for their wheels, and that's not for wheels designed for touring, which have a higher spoke count.

doozerie

TLDR: talk to a *good* wheelbuilder.

As mentioned already, carbon rims would be plenty strong so that wouldn't be my concern if I was looking for touring wheels. Long gone are the days when pros watched their carbon rims disintegrate as they raced in the likes of Paris-Roubaix, that's about as likely these days as a carbon frameset rattling itself to bits. Carbon fibre is strong stuff, and when (if!) a carbon component is manufactured well it should be very robust. For example, I'd imagine that most of us are riding around on carbon forks these days without giving it a moment's thought.

There is an image commonly associated with carbon of it failing catastrophically in an impact. It can, of course, but I think we all too often overestimate the likelihood of that happening. Quite often carbon (rims/frame/forks/stems/handlebars/cranks/levers/whatever) will survive an impact with no damage, sometimes it will visibly crack, I reckon that "invisible" delamination or an outright break is relatively rare. And if it cracks, then repairing at the roadside can be an option depending on the location and nature of the crack - I've certainly read of long-distance riders carrying carbon fibre weave strips and epoxy and successfully "patching" a cracked frame in an emergency.

Of course, if you are likely to find yourself constantly worrying that the patched area will fail suddenly then that wouldn't make for a pleasant remainder of the ride, and over a long ride that could utterly wreck your head. So I reckon that repairing carbon on the go is something to consider only if you have familiarity of, and faith in, the lay-up and gluing process and are comfortable with being able to assess carbon damage yourself by eye. So it clearly won't be an option that everyone would be happy with.

It's also worth remembering though that alloy rims can be damaged beyond repair too, bad luck won't care what material your rims (or frame, etc.) are made of, it it's going to get you it will find a way. As an example, many years ago I hit a water-filled pothole in the dark and badly dented both alloy rims to the extent that I couldn't ride on them. And as I was reminded again recently, alloy rims can and do fail around the spoke holes too, and that's also hard to contend with mid-ride.

But carbon rims have other potential disadvantages that would sway me away from them for long-distance rides. For one thing you'd want to be confident that your tyre levers won't damage the rim if you have to remove the tyre to fix a puncture, particularly as punctures seem to bide their time until you are tired, there is no daylight left, and your patience is at an all time low!

And "good" carbon rims are not cheap. In theory anyone can make a carbon rim, and many people/companies do, but personally I wouldn't place the same amount of faith in the quality and reliability of all of them. You don't always get what you pay for either, so price tag is not a reliable indicator of quality, but if you read up on the subject enough you'll probably find yourself keeping one mental list of brands to look to, and another of brands to avoid. My latter list is very short, and mostly leans to the expensive end of the scale.

So personally I'd go with alloy rims, with plenty of spokes to reduce the scale of any buckle should a spoke break. In my case, weighing in at 61kg when wet, plenty of spokes means 32. And I'd carry spare spokes of appropriate length with me if touring. Which for me means also carrying a decent spoke key (easy), a cassette removal tool (still easy, for one without a handle), a chainwhip (ah here!), and most annoying of all a handle for the cassette removal tool (or a cassette remover with an integrated handle). And all because, if you are going to prepare yourself for a spoke breaking, then you need to prepare for a drive-side rear spoke breaking and usually that means removing the cassette to get a new spoke in (I've bodged this before when I had to, it's quite amazing how you can bend a stainless spoke practically into a circle to install it in a tight space only to tension it seemingly perfectly straight again once installed ...I wouldn't recommend it though, and in any case it's not even an option with some hubs anyway).

But there again is another level of subjectivity, I'm picturing a scenario where I'm walking a long long way unless I get a wheel usable, and I'll need that wheel to be usable for a long time yet. If all you expect to need is a temporary bodge job to get you to somewhere where someone can pick you up, say, or to get you to public transport home, or even to a local-ish bike shop, then you wouldn't need to go to those same lengths of preparation/caution.

It's easy to forget too that your choice of hubs is vital. As is your choice of spokes but I think they are easier to settle on. There is a bewildering array of hubs out there and not all of them will build up into the kind of wheel you'd want (nor will they all be equally reliable in terms of bearings, etc., but that's another topic in itself). You should consider the fundamentals of the hub, like flange width and height, as those are key to the strength of the resulting wheel. My advice is to talk to a good wheelbuilder as they are best placed to offer advice here, and for the spokes and rim too of course, knowledge and extensive experience of building wheels trumps everything here and you typically won't find this kind of info in marketing material, reviews, or anecdotal recommendations by me or others.

And obviously you should think about the width of tyre you'll want, as may narrow down your choice of rim. The trend for wide rims means that, for example, a 23mm tyre might not be a suitable choice even if you wanted it. Personally I'd go for for 28mm tyres as a minimum, potentially anything up to 35mm. And you'll want to consider whether you want a tubeless setup, as that obviously determines rim options too.

Having mentioned anecdotal recommendations above, I'm now going to throw in a controversial opinion. Mavic Open Pro was my default choice of rim for many years after I started to build some of my own wheels. I stopped using them several years ago as I started to have recurring problems with them, the quality of them just seemed to fall away at some point. I've since used Ambrosio rims, which I've been impressed by for a very similar price. For balance though, after I switched to Ambrosio, I built a set of wheels for my wife with Open Pro's as that was her preference, and they have something like 25,000kms on them at this point with no issues, but I still wouldn't go back to them for my own wheels. But if you talk to any decent wheelbuilder you'll probably find that they each have a number of rims that they'll favour and can vouch for, obviously take their recommendation over anything I might suggest.

As regards rim depth, there is no right or wrong answer but current thinking leans towards 50mm being the point at which crosswinds can be a real problem but the pro being that 50mm gives real aero benefits. Some 50mm rims fare better than others though in terms of susceptibility to crosswinds so it's a grey area. And 35mm is generally seen as a good compromise of some aero benefit while keeping crosswind impact relatively low. But again, I've read accounts of some 35mm rims behaving poorly in crosswinds - I have a set of 35mm-ish rims (Rolf Vector Vigor) that are mostly fine but on one particularly windy day I was shoved to the middle of the road when I passed a gateway and was hit by the full force of the wind (that was extreme and the rims were only one factor of many, but the front wheel certainly got shoved).

Oh, and if you opt to get the wheels built for you, then depending on the rim you may get the choice of internal or external spoke nipples. For your purposes I'd recommend external, as that will allow you to adjust spokes in an emergency if you need to, without having to muck about with taking off the wheel, tyre, tube, and rim tape.

Weepsie

After my travails tonight, I'd also recommend low profile rims. I had tubes with too short a stem to the able to inflate properly.

CramCycle

David6330 wrote: »

That doesn't sound right. 100kg weight limit for the wheelset I'd thought.

rider+bike+load < 100kg ?

It is definitely per wheel, if it were the wheelset, alas many of us here would simply not be able to use said wheels on our bikes.

magicbastarder

i was doing some googling, and found no mention of a wheelset with a weight limit *per wheel*, especially at 100kg per wheel.
campag advise a *rider* weight limit of 109kg.
hunt advise a max off 115kg rider weight for their four seasons set, and even with that say the wheels should be regularly checked if the rider weighs more than 105kg.

obviously in either case, they're being extremely conservative.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

i was doing some googling, and found no mention of a wheelset with a weight limit *per wheel*, especially at 100kg per wheel.
campag advise a *rider* weight limit of 109kg.
hunt advise a max off 115kg rider weight for their four seasons set, and even with that say the wheels should be regularly checked if the rider weighs more than 105kg.

obviously in either case, they're being extremely conservative.

Sorry, I haven't looked at such things since I done Audaxing and at that time I'd regularly be hauling more than that weight around. Anytime it was mentioned riders said per wheel, so I presumed that was the standard, my bad. I do know that the HUNT hill climbing wheels though have a very low limit on them. I wouldn't be able to use them, that is for sure.

magicbastarder

i suspect it's just for warranty purposes; they probably test a worst case scenario of the max a single wheel can take - the max a wheel can take is also the max the wheelset can take. e.g when braking heavily, nearly all your weight is on the front wheel anyway, so it has to be able to take whatever is stated for the wheelset.
by the same token, they can't say 'this wheelset can take 200kg; warranty is void in the case of a wheelie causing damage'.

Large bottle small glass

OP is looking for a touring wheelset, open pros are not a touring rim. They weight circa 450g

Touring rims like Mavic A719, dt swiss 545, ryde rims start at about 550g and go up the way.

Even as a road rim I'd be looking at a lot of other manufacturers also, people seems to have a fasicantion with Open pros for some reason; have a look at Kinlin, Hplus son, HED, Dt swiss etc etc.

A touring wheelset will be rated at around the 140kg weight ballpark. Just ignore the 200kg nonsense.

Yacf.co.uk or cyclinguk.org etc might be a better place to ask

Deep section, internal nipples and touring wheelset makes my head hurt