VRT to drop on some new diesels....

terrydel

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/budget-2020-tax-proposals-could-make-for-cheaper-diesel-cars-1.4034356

Am I reading this right, that essentially some new diesels with recalculated c02 emissions under WLTP (where emissions increase from previous NEDC2 rating) will see VRT reduced, albeit only slightly?
Not getting into the whole climate change/electric car debate, but how does that make sense? Its surely making higher polluting cars more attractive to buy (slightly)? Makes a mockery of the government's stated aim to tackle climate change seriously, or am I missing something?
Then again, nothing surprises me with fine gael, only ever interested in looking after their friends in the private sector and well to do sections of society.

turbbo

terrydel wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/budget-2020-tax-proposals-could-make-for-cheaper-diesel-cars-1.4034356

Am I reading this right, that essentially some new diesels with recalculated c02 emissions under WLTP (where emissions increase from previous NEDC2 rating) will see VRT reduced, albeit only slightly?
Not getting into the whole climate change/electric car debate, but how does that make sense? Its surely making higher polluting cars more attractive to buy (slightly)? Makes a mockery of the government's stated aim to tackle climate change seriously, or am I missing something?
Then again, nothing surprises me with fine gael, only ever interested in looking after their friends in the private sector and well to do sections of society.

Isn't it because of the reduced carbon emissions of the newer models? Don't let facts get in the way of a good old rant.
Also if you read between the lines of that article it looks like a tax hike coming for older diesels.

terrydel

turbbo wrote: »

Isn't it because of the reduced carbon emissions of the newer models? Don't let facts get in the way of a good old rant.
Also if you read between the lines of that article it looks like a tax hike coming for older diesels.

Im not ranting, I wont be buying any of them so its not going to impact me.
And I asked am I getting it right in my interpretation, so dont let what someone actually says get in the way eh....

turbbo

terrydel wrote: »

Im not ranting, I wont be buying any of them so its not going to impact me.
And I asked am I getting it right in my interpretation, so dont let what someone actually says get in the way eh....

Ok - I agree. The headline in the article is a bit click-baity, I forget that the IT is at the same game as all the rags these days.

terrydel

turbbo wrote: »

Ok - I agree. The headline in the article is a bit click-baity, I forget that the IT is at the same game as all the rags these days.

It is, but my question still stands.
My interpretation of that article is that a car with higher emissions under the new rating system will see vrt reduced. Thats exactly what the article is saying re. the Octavia.
That seems to run counter to any notion of pushing people towards more environmentally friendly vehicles, so I'm totally confused by it.

R.O.R

The higher emissions are because of the new testing - there's no difference between the emissions now and after WLTP - same engine, same emissions if tested the same way.

WLTP should not have an effect to the consumer on costs, so because VRT is based on emissions, some movement had to happen in the bands so the consumer doesn't lose out.

There will be winners, there will be losers, but overall it should end up fairly level compared to current pricing.

Idbatterim

trying to get people to move over to EV and they still charge ridiculously low motor tax rates on many petrol and particularly diesel cars. They need to start changing this from this budget, absolute morons!

ednwireland

Idbatterim wrote: »

trying to get people to move over to EV and they still charge ridiculously low motor tax rates on many petrol and particularly diesel cars. They need to start changing this from this budget, absolute morons!

absolutely not going to happen, how many votes would they lose if they started that ?

turbbo

R.O.R wrote: »

The higher emissions are because of the new testing - there's no difference between the emissions now and after WLTP - same engine, same emissions if tested the same way.

WLTP should not have an effect to the consumer on costs, so because VRT is based on emissions, some movement had to happen in the bands so the consumer doesn't lose out.

There will be winners, there will be losers, but overall it should end up fairly level compared to current pricing.

Yeah and they talk about a new tax for NOX pushing price up by €780 on a new diesel. I agree with the OP that the article is not very clear.
But the decreases in VRT seem to suggest that they want to at least encourage people to still buy new (ICE)cars as they will more than likely be replacing a high carbon emissions old car. At the moment there is very little incentive to buy a new ICE car. And the hybrids and electrics are super expensive.
This is a sensible approach and probably the same approach all governments would go with based on current advice.

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

trying to get people to move over to EV and they still charge ridiculously low motor tax rates on many petrol and particularly diesel cars. They need to start changing this from this budget, absolute morons!

They would be morons if they do what you suggest.

turbbo

Sawyer Rough Self-defense wrote: »

They would be morons if they do what you suggest.

Hahahaha good username!

bazz26

Idbatterim wrote: »

trying to get people to move over to EV and they still charge ridiculously low motor tax rates on many petrol and particularly diesel cars. They need to start changing this from this budget, absolute morons!

It's like a broken record at this stage.

When they have no real proper strategy or plan then just resort to the old reliable tax increases. Car manufacturers should be made reduce the prices of their EVs to make them more affordable and widen their model range, then people will see them as an alternative to petrol and diesel cars rather than just taking the lazy man's way out of slapping more taxes on the motorist.

I'll take myself as an example. I'm driving a 530d that cost me low 30k nearly 2 years ago. It has plenty of power, comfort and luxuries. If I were to upgrade to a new EV tomorrow I'd be looking at paying 38k after the Government grants (which are not sustainable and rightly so) for a far inferior small Hyundai Kona EV. It will be a very cold day in hell before I do that.

Idbatterim

bazz26 wrote: »

It's like a broken record at this stage.

When they have no real proper strategy or plan then just resort to the old reliable tax increases. Car manufacturers should be made reduce the prices of their EVs to make them more affordable and widen their model range, then people will see them as an alternative to petrol and diesel cars rather than just taking the lazy man's way out of slapping more taxes on the motorist.

I'll take myself as an example. I'm driving a 530d that cost me low 30k nearly 2 years ago. It has plenty of power, comfort and luxuries. If I were to upgrade to a new EV tomorrow I'd be looking at paying 38k after the Government grants (which are not sustainable and rightly so) for a far inferior small Hyundai Kona EV. It will be a very cold day in hell before I do that.

I agree with EV, car companies will do what is most profitable. I am not saying force you out of your car now, I am saying, that there should be a new tax regime like in 2008, vrt and motor tax on diesel and petrol should increase, so that when you do decide to change next time, that buying an EV is an option, the bigger polluters, should pay and they can subsidise people who choose an ev option. they have to be subsidised for mass adoption...

they are already brining in that MG in the uk, that wont come here, for a steal, with a good range. Like with Tesla, Ireland is a total after though, understandably...

Casati

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree with EV, car companies will do what is most profitable. I am not saying force you out of your car now, I am saying, that there should be a new tax regime like in 2008, vrt and motor tax on diesel and petrol should increase, so that when you do decide to change next time, that buying an EV is an option, the bigger polluters, should pay and they can subsidise people who choose an ev option. they have to be subsidised for mass adoption...

they are already brining in that MG in the uk, that wont come here, for a steal, with a good range. Like with Tesla, Ireland is a total after though, understandably...

I don’t get your point, most new EV’s attract 10k in grants, and VRT is at the lowest rate of any car. If EV’s are still too expensive to buy now surely manufacturers will increase prices further if petrols and diesels get more expensive?

turbbo

Casati wrote: »

I don’t get your point, most new EV’s attract 10k in grants, and VRT is at the lowest rate of any car. If EV’s are still too expensive to buy now surely manufacturers will increase prices further if petrols and diesels get more expensive?

As manufacturers move away from ICE(slowly) there will be more competition in the EV market - problem is there is very little competition atm.
ICE is filling the gap(for now).

Casati

We continually hear the next model is going to be super cheap- eg the ID was going to be same price as a Golf before grants, but it looks like it will be 40k+ after allowing for 10k in grants

EV’s were cheaper a few years ago as manufacturers were okay losing money on each one to build brand/ develop the tech etc and the demand wasn’t there so to shift them they took a loss.

However as demand grows and outstrips supply the simple law of economics comes into play and prices rise. If diesel cars increase in price the EV’s will increase too as more demand with be placed on the limited number of ev’s available. The one that gains are the car manufacturers, while less taxes make it into the coffers.

If you want evidence just see the new ev pricing - cars like the Leaf mk1 were sold for around 20k, now it’s 30k+ to get one. Hyundai sold a few ev’s for 26k in 2017, now you need 40k to get the Kona.

Ultimately with a few exceptions most new EV’s are too expensive to buy for the average Joe, especially anything with a bit of range. Whole life costs might be less but if you don’t have the money up front and can’t finance you can’t buy.

Taxing petrols and diesels will serve to see people keep cars longer and continue to import used diesels as long as they can

NIMAN

ednwireland wrote: »

absolutely not going to happen, how many votes would they lose if they started that ?

Yip, voters only pretend to care about climate change.

But if it comes and hurts them in the pocket, God help the politicians.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Yip, voters only pretend to care about climate change.

But if it comes and hurts them in the pocket, God help the politicians.

If you think anything we do in Ireland makes even the smallest most minute difference you are very much mistaken.

All this nonsense trying to stop ICE cars, taxing us more, carbon taxes are nothing but money making rackets putting needless hardship on people.