Pitfalls of a money pit

smokingman

Hi all,

Fell in love with a very old house that needs a lot of work but I'm worried it could become a money pit and was wondering if anyone here has any tips on, first, convincing yourself it'll be worth it to have a home full of character, how you rationalise the money you'll need to put into it and lastly, what the red lines are in an engineers report that would scare you away completely?

TheShow

No red flags as such other then the cost to rectify, thats what it will come down to.

If you love the house and money is no object, why not breath new life into an old beauty.

Idbatterim

where is the house located and can you do any work yourself? when you say a home full of character, I take it that it is a period home with some or all features still in tact?

TheShow

Give Dermot Bannon a shout, he will help you spend any money you have!

smokingman

Idbatterim wrote: »

where is the house located and can you do any work yourself? when you say a home full of character, I take it that it is a period home with some or all features still in tact?

It's 100 years old but has a flat roof extension out back built in the 70s. Listed facade so I could theoretically pull down the back.

Idbatterim

smokingman wrote: »

It's 100 years old but has a flat roof extension out back built in the 70s. Listed facade so I could theoretically pull down the back.

I am telling you now, that the quotes people are getting at the moment, are eye watering for work. Some people are buying houses and having to just sell them on as the banks wont finance the insane renovation costs...

Have you any experience of this type of job?

Humour Me

I suggest you get a builder or engineer in to give you an indication of the cost involved.

Would you be able to move in and do it up room by room and spread the cost over time or is there work needed before you can move in?

enricoh

Depends if you can do some work yourself and if not it depends on what part of the country you are in.
If you cant do any work yourself n are in dublin n surrounds, forget it. Get an a rated new house n a few paintbrushes, zero hassle

Idbatterim

enricoh wrote: »

Depends if you can do some work yourself and if not it depends on what part of the country you are in.
If you cant do any work yourself n are in dublin n surrounds, forget it. Get an a rated new house n a few paintbrushes, zero hassle

thats exactly what I was asking, where is it and can you do anything yourself. In dublin its certainly doable, if you have bucket loads of money available! IF!

Op you say the facade needs to be retained and mention character. Are there period doors, coving, fire places etc?

smokingman

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats exactly what I was asking, where is it and can you do anything yourself. In dublin its certainly doable, if you have bucket loads of money available! IF!

Op you say the facade needs to be retained and mention character. Are there period doors, coving, fire places etc?

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

Idbatterim

smokingman wrote: »

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

Get prices from builder. I’ll tell you one thing thigh , it’s gone so over the top here , if it’s not nearly new fire it all out. Has to be a energy rating etc. it’s a wonder how others survive in older houses ( sarcasm alert ) my point being , have your eyes wide open going in , but this might be something you could do over time etc. depends on a lot of factors. New pvc windows can be supplied for a pittance , is it wood aluclad or pvc you are looking for ? Attic depending on current insulation could be spray foamed. Between that and ‘new windows , could get you through winter...

Idbatterim

smokingman wrote: »

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

Lovely used kitchens can be got in donedeal and adverts etc, particularly now with the amount of building going on. price up new from one or two suppliers too obviously...

send on the link to house in a pm if you like, I could better advise then...

buffin

We bought a place like this last year - a few challenges we didn't anticipate that we've had:

- The banks were reluctant to give a mortgage because of the issues with it. Eventually one did, but it dragged things out by an extra couple of months on contracts.
- Ours had subsidence so the insurance companies wouldn't take it - we've had to go with a specialised firm which costs more. Not sure even once fixed if we'll be able to switch to standard rates.
- Once you start doing something it becomes not worth it to not do 10 other things eg. pulling up the floors anyway - may as well put in underfloor heating
- The things we loved the most about the house have fallen down in priorities. We want to recreate the two ceiling roses that remained in all of the rooms, but budget wise it's probably 2/3 years before we'll be able to.
- Some of the period features become at risk if you need to do other work eg we're replastering walls so the original plasterwork is in the way. We're having to find workarounds to keep everything in place.
- We can't live there during the building work, and it's been a long couple of months with parents!!
- Finally, everything takes way longer and costs far more than expected - about 30% on each.

We don't regret it at all, but the building work is stressful and we've had to make a lot more compromises than we wanted to along the way. Good luck if you decide to go ahead with it!

Doniekp

smokingman wrote: »

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

We are finishing the restoration of an nearly 260yr, 1.5 story house.
It was previously half completed by some one else.

We insulated with 100mm pir fitted into stud partition inside the external walls and 62mm insulated slab board inside that. Re wired and plumbed for un-floor downstairs n rads upstairs.
Using Grant hybrid sys of air to water n oil boiler combi. Insert stoves to close up fireplace openings.
We are replacing the single glaze panes to heritage double glaze units.
A company in Belfast supplied these. PM me if you want details on those.
Company in Dublin can provide new windows seals n lead weighs to re balance the windows.
its a slow job and we have changed direction on what we had originally planned for a more energy efficient house.

Ray Palmer

If it is listed in any shape or form run away. Those windows you want to replace for example are now twice the price easily and you may not be able to upgrade above single glaze.
At 100 years old at least most things are still made but certain things are just way expensive. I am guessing it is Art Deco if only 100 which could mean all fixes on original feature can be very expensive.

Building an extension or renovating a property is way more work than most think. If you have no experience taking on a listed building it a huge leap of faith

Idbatterim

Hey op. My inbox was full. Deleted a few messages. If you tried to message me , please do so again. Thanks

antiskeptic

smokingman wrote: »

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

I've had a few old houses and have a bit of an interest in them. Some old houses are well built and largely sound. Others are badly built and crumbling. If its the former then no need for it to be a money pit (unless you want to turn it into a modern spec house wrapped in period paper).

If your not looking for perfection (it costs) and its pretty sound then why not?

Red line for me would be no damp course / extensive rot / crumbling, badly cracked, subsided structure / a roof in tatters.

A well built 100+ year old gaf can be sound enough - indeed some can be very well built.

I've renovated a few old houses now and know others who've done it. The regret cases are those where the basic house was a crumbler rather than sound. And all the effort and money went into getting the underlying structure right.

Old houses will always give you unexpected bad news but if it's fundamentally sound you'll cope.

Pm me the link on myhome if you like: I'm in the refurb game so can tell a bit from photos. And send on whatever redlines have cropped up

smokingman

I'm in the middle of organising an engineer but want to make sure he's thorough and has some experience of old houses so the report will give me the full picture.
...exciting times

Marcusm

smokingman wrote: »

It's 100 years old but has a flat roof extension out back built in the 70s. Listed facade so I could theoretically pull down the back.

Have you had advice as to what you can do? In my experience, Irish local authorities, by default, enter the entire building in their records of protected structures meaning that it is not so easy as saying it’s only the façade. You note that the windows are only single glazed; are they original sash windows? If yes then you will not get permission to replace them unless every timber within each window is completely rotten. If they are mid 20th century single glazed then you will only get permission to replace with historic style windows which will be more expensive than off the shelf aluclad type windows.

Bricriu

A surveyor can only tell you so much about a house.
He/she can't tell you what is going on under the floors, especially under a wooden ground floor that doesn't have damp course.
A friend was given the all-clear by a surveyor on an old house; some months later it became obvious that there were big dry-rot problems under the wooden floor of the ground floor. Whole floor had to be pulled up, damp course had to be laid, beams replaced, etc. Cost a packet.

BarryD2

Bricriu wrote: »

A surveyor can only tell you so much about a house.
He/she can't tell you what is going on under the floors, especially under a wooden ground floor that doesn't have damp course.
A friend was given the all-clear by a surveyor on an old house; some months later it became obvious that there were big dry-rot problems under the wooden floor of the ground floor. Whole floor had to be pulled up, damp course had to be laid, beams replaced, etc. Cost a packet.

That's true but a decent surveyor/ engineer/ architect if asked can outline possible areas of concern - for issues that they can't validate.

BarryD2

Re damp proof courses, I could be wrong but I think these were rarely installed in older houses. At best, a layer of impervious slate might have been incorporated. What is important is the relative ground level outside to floor level inside. If the site is anyway sloped and the soil is banked up against one side, that will cause problems. But if the floor levels are higher than those outside all round, should be fine. There's money to be made out of injecting chemical damp courses, we renovated and live in an old house and this was strongly recommended in the building survey. I got this done which involved a fair bit of work and not entirely convinced that it made much of a difference. What was more of an issue was the lack of insulation in the old solid walls and single glazed windows, so you can get more condensation & mould problems.

fago

Looks like our bid on a fixer upper, at ~15% below asking, will be accepted so interested a bit more on where the price inflation has come from (and when it might start going the other direction if at all).

Is it labour, materials, new building regs or the perfect storm of all 3?

Talking to an engineer in our area a few months back, his impression was that labour rates had peaked and it was becoming a bit easier to get builders and trades and prices would start to ease. This is outside Dublin.

Footprint of our house is large enough that its just renovation within the current structure, no extensions etc. We plan to knock down approx 300 sqft extension, and still have 2000sqft of space.

Sleepy

We're 3 years into an 100 year old house. Most of the original features had been removed over the years and although we've replastered a few rooms, replaced the kitchen and bathroom, repainted and re-floored most of the place, we're still a few years away from it being where we plan on taking it to (still have some awful early 90's aluminium double-glazing for instance as being in an Architectural Conservation Area, we have to replace them with heritage sash windows that match our neighbours to the millimetre so will be a custom job and expensive).

If the house is habitable as it is, and you can make it homely with a lick of paint etc. don't discount the property due to the current high prices of renovations. The construction industry, more than most, is susceptible to the cyclical nature of capitalist economies and there'll be a downturn in it again eventually. If you can live in the house comfortably while waiting for this to happen, you could save tens of thousands on your plans for the "finished" house.

Personally, the DIY involved in maintaining and updating the house has become my biggest hobby and it's amazed me just how much you can learn to do yourself via forums like this, youtube, old apprentices's textbooks from charity shops etc. If you've any interest, don't discount how much you can do without needing to hire people. Some jobs (major electrical work, gas) you're legally prohibited from carrying out yourself but others really aren't that challenging.

Gloomtastic!

New building regs coming in place in November means that if you plan to add 25% extra space via an extension then the whole house needs to be upgraded to B2 energy standard. A nightmare if buying an old house.

Be careful!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-energy-rules-for-home-renovations-and-extensions-1.4031816

GreeBo

OP it all depends on how much you have to spend to purchase the house and how much of a budget you have.

If you can get it for 100K then I'd be all in if you think its going to be a 1M house and the costs will be under 900K

Another cost is you need somewhere to live while you renovate, if you can make it livable ASAP and then renovate while you live there its a huge cost.

But really you need to strip houses like this back to bare bones to see what you have...you probably need a new roof, heating, plumbing, wiring, insulation and potentially flooring downstairs.

Having recently taken quotes for wiring and plumbing an older house, prices are 25% higher than they "should" be, due to the abundance of easy commercial work.

fago

The complete quote is
"Where more that 25 per cent of the surface of the building is undergoing renovation or an extension there will be a requirement that the whole building should achieve an energy efficiency of B2 or cost optimal level."


The last few words seem like a get out clause to avoid work where its just not cost effective.

BarryD2

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

New building regs coming in place in November means that if you plan to add 25% extra space via an extension then the whole house needs to be upgraded to B2 energy standard. A nightmare if buying an old house.

Be careful!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-energy-rules-for-home-renovations-and-extensions-1.4031816

Sometimes it's as if one hand of government knows not what the other is doing. Widely acknowledged that we have an accommodation shortage, which can't simply be dealt with by new builds. Older housing stock must play a significant part, so why make it harder for the public to renovate older properties? Reminds me of the Green/FF govern and their policy of banning bedsits - great except for those who got turfed out, rents raised astronomically etc. You don't hear the Greens being asked much about that now.

Idbatterim

we're still a few years away from it being where we plan on taking it to (still have some awful early 90's aluminium double-glazing for instance as being in an Architectural Conservation Area, we have to replace them with heritage sash windows that match our neighbours to the millimetre so will be a custom job and expensive).

could you source these from the uk now with the very weak sterling? or eastern europe? can imagine the prices are are comedy gold!

Ray Palmer

Sleepy wrote: »

We're 3 years into an 100 year old house. Most of the original features had been removed over the years and although we've replastered a few rooms, replaced the kitchen and bathroom, repainted and re-floored most of the place, we're still a few years away from it being where we plan on taking it to (still have some awful early 90's aluminium double-glazing for instance as being in an Architectural Conservation Area, we have to replace them with heritage sash windows that match our neighbours to the millimetre so will be a custom job and expensive).
.

I believe you have been mislead. While yes you would have to replace the windows with sash windows if replacing the original windows that is not the case if the originals are gone. The rule in that case is you can do what you like. The key part is conserve and you don't have anything to conserve if it already gone.

Are people sure they are talking about 100 year old houses? I have a georgian property and it doesn't have preservation order. Houses from 1910s very rarely have such such orders.

Ms2011

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Sleepy wrote: »

We're 3 years into an 100 year old house. Most of the original features had been removed over the years and although we've replastered a few rooms, replaced the kitchen and bathroom, repainted and re-floored most of the place, we're still a few years away from it being where we plan on taking it to (still have some awful early 90's aluminium double-glazing for instance as being in an Architectural Conservation Area, we have to replace them with heritage sash windows that match our neighbours to the millimetre so will be a custom job and expensive).
.

I believe you have been mislead. While yes you would have to replace the windows with sash windows if replacing the original windows that is not the case if the originals are gone. The rule in that case is you can do what you like. The key part is conserve and you don't have anything to conserve if it already gone.

Are people sure they are talking about 100 year old houses? I have a georgian property and it doesn't have preservation order. Houses from 1910s very rarely have such such orders.

My house is 200+ years old & listed, we were able to put modern windows in them with no issue.

Sleepy

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I believe you have been mislead. While yes you would have to replace the windows with sash windows if replacing the original windows that is not the case if the originals are gone. The rule in that case is you can do what you like. The key part is conserve and you don't have anything to conserve if it already gone.

Are people sure they are talking about 100 year old houses? I have a georgian property and it doesn't have preservation order. Houses from 1910s very rarely have such such orders.

I've read the Statement of Character for the ACA and it's quite specific.

Our house was built in the 1910's/1920's as part of, what was at the time, the largest civic construction project undertaken in Ireland (St Ita's Asylum in Portrane) and the terrace we're in is, IIRC, the last example of it's type in the country which has it listed as an Architectural Conservation Area. So, while the house itself isn't a "listed" or "protected" structure, it's outwards appearance has to conform to that of our neighbours.

I'm sure I could challenge the council on it legally (and win) if I wanted to but there are other aspects of the ACA that work in our favour (large fields behind our house that can't be developed) so I'm not inclined to challenge them on it and quite frankly, architecturally speaking, they're right: the original windows look best in the properties.

I'll be using the leeway between an ACA and a listed building to justify installing double-glazed versions of the original sash though.

awec

Humour Me wrote: »

I suggest you get a builder or engineer in to give you an indication of the cost involved.

Would you be able to move in and do it up room by room and spread the cost over time or is there work needed before you can move in?

I am skeptical that this is possible, unless the work is very superficial.

If you're doing anything substantial, doing it room by room over time is going to cost a lot more in the long run (or not even make sense), as well as being incredibly irritating for years.

Idbatterim

awec wrote: »

I am skeptical that this is possible, unless the work is very superficial.

If you're doing anything substantial, doing it room by room over time is going to cost a lot more in the long run (or not even make sense), as well as being incredibly irritating for years.

if its a money issue, which it usually is. its typically the kitchen and bathroom if they need renovating, that really suck up a huge amount. the other rooms arent usually too expensive.

Ms2011

awec wrote: »

Humour Me wrote: »

I suggest you get a builder or engineer in to give you an indication of the cost involved.

Would you be able to move in and do it up room by room and spread the cost over time or is there work needed before you can move in?

I am skeptical that this is possible, unless the work is very superficial.

If you're doing anything substantial, doing it room by room over time is going to cost a lot more in the long run (or not even make sense), as well as being incredibly irritating for years.

This is how we are doing ours, kitchen & bathroom in, rewiring & heating done since we moved in 2 years ago. Outside the house has been painted & guttering done as well as getting the neglected garden under control.
Still loads to do but it'll get done when it gets done, the house is warm & dry & we don't have to worry about a mortgage or rent so that's a major plus.

GreeBo

awec wrote: »

I am skeptical that this is possible, unless the work is very superficial.

If you're doing anything substantial, doing it room by room over time is going to cost a lot more in the long run (or not even make sense), as well as being incredibly irritating for years.

You do the large scale, messy stuff first, but then you can "decorate" room by room over years if necessary.

I got wiring and plumbing and all rooms skimmed, new windows but then painted, floored etc over a couple of years.

Doing 1 bathroom rather than 2 or 3 is a significant saving.

awec

GreeBo wrote: »

You do the large scale, messy stuff first, but then you can "decorate" room by room over years if necessary.

I got wiring and plumbing and all rooms skimmed, new windows but then painted, floored etc over a couple of years.

Doing 1 bathroom rather than 2 or 3 is a significant saving.

Yes, but painting and flooring is purely superficial stuff, which is kind of my point.

You're not going to re-wire, re-plumb, re-plaster or whatever a house one room at a time. You're not going to upgrade the heating one room at a time, or change the windows one room at a time etc. That would be absolutely daft.

GreeBo

awec wrote: »

Yes, but painting and flooring is purely superficial stuff, which is kind of my point.

You're not going to re-wire, re-plumb, re-plaster or whatever a house one room at a time. You're not going to upgrade the heating one room at a time, or change the windows one room at a time etc. That would be absolutely daft.

Yep...but I dont think anyone advised doing that....

Marcusm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

New building regs coming in place in November means that if you plan to add 25% extra space via an extension then the whole house needs to be upgraded to B2 energy standard. A nightmare if buying an old house.

Be careful!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-energy-rules-for-home-renovations-and-extensions-1.4031816

It’s a protected structure so those have more limited application!

Marcusm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I believe you have been mislead. While yes you would have to replace the windows with sash windows if replacing the original windows that is not the case if the originals are gone. The rule in that case is you can do what you like. The key part is conserve and you don't have anything to conserve if it already gone.

Are people sure they are talking about 100 year old houses? I have a georgian property and it doesn't have preservation order. Houses from 1910s very rarely have such such orders.

Absolutely incorrect as far as DCC are concerned( mine has original late Victorian windows but a number of neighbours have 70s/80s pvc/aluminium. If they want to remove those, the only option is to commission bespoke wooden sash windows consistent with what the originals would have been. Undoubtedly some break this rule but that’s the exception.

Mine is 1880s and the whole street is protected. Adjacent streets are more mixed and, in my opinion, those which are not entirely protected have a higher proportion of lawyers who’ve successfully lobbied against. Orwell Park (if you know it) is a classic example of a street with few protected strucutures despite many fine examples which should be protected. Rathgar Road, on the other hand, is a hodge lodge and almost 100% protected to the extent that DCC objected to the removal of mid 20th century pebble dash on a much older house.

smokingman

Anyone know who I'd talk to about what I could change for a protected structure? Local council authority?

ScallionAyter

Humour Me wrote: »

Would you be able to move in and do it up room by room and spread the cost over time

Not possible to do. Terrible advice to be giving someone.

ebayissues

Took me a while to find this thread.


I have looked at some houses within budget(<325/350k max) and some are terraced houses which I have looked at. They require good bit of work, some have bathrooms downstairs, floors might be to be redone, painting, new kitchen and there is also posible stuff that I'd prefer like open plan kitchen.


If one wants to go through the route of buying a terraced/1950's type place with the prospect of doing it up, where would one start from after the house viewing?


A suggestion has been get an engineer/architect- another question, whats the best way of contacting any of these and sying you're interested in property, can you advise what has to be done?





Apologies for typing errors but keyboard is acting up..

Yellow_Fern

smokingman wrote: »

House is good to move into already but windows are single pane and need replacing. There's a whole new kitchen needed and possible chimney work. 70s extension is rough but could do that while living there. It's in Kildare

Are you sure the windows need replacing? Its a myth that single glazing makes a house uncomfortable. Maybe they can be repaired. Sashs can normally be repaired.

Yellow_Fern

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

New building regs coming in place in November means that if you plan to add 25% extra space via an extension then the whole house needs to be upgraded to B2 energy standard. A nightmare if buying an old house.

Be careful!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/new-energy-rules-for-home-renovations-and-extensions-1.4031816

Youd hope such a house is exempt as period houses are BER exempt.