Medical - alleged unnecessary referral to hospital

The Jammy dodger

Hi, I'm wondering if a doctor on call refuses to see a patient before admitting them to hospital instead asking them to go to hospital, has he failed in his duty of care and is there a legal case there?

Miaireland

No, there wouldn't be. The Doctor can say from the information they were given that it was in the best interest if the patient to go directly to Hospital.

The Jammy dodger

Miaireland wrote: »

No, there wouldn't be. The Doctor can say from the information they were given that it was in the best interest if the patient to go directly to Hospital.

Right, I was told a different story by the doctor of the hosptial that he is supposed to see the patient first before admitting them here, failure to do that is neglect to duty of care especially when your symptoms didn't warrant admission. He says some doctors are notorious for this behaviour. But you're saying doctors could just lie and basically say he thought it was the best decision available to him? I can see how that would be difficult case as it would be his word against the patients.

Miaireland

There still is no legal case. No harm came to the patient. Sounds like the Doctor in the hospital was just annoyed. Honestly I can see why there is such a shortage of GPs in Ireland if people consider taking such ridiculous cases.

The Jammy dodger

Miaireland wrote: »

There still is no legal case. No harm came to the patient. Sounds like the Doctor in the hospital was just annoyed. Honestly I can see why there is such a shortage of GPs in Ireland if people consider taking just ridiculous cases.

The patient hosptial is half hour away, he had no way of getting home and had to remain in hosptial the entire night, then have his wife come in the middle of the night with their children who also had fevers to come and get him. He basically ruined the patients night. I don't think medical harm is neccessary in a case of medical negligence. Medical negligence means you just failed to offer duty of care surely?

thomasdylan

Sounds like someone looking for a payday.

Is this a situation where a GP on call advised a patient to go to hospital directly instead of being assessed by the Gp on call? Makes complete sense if they felt hospital investigations (Xray, bloods,etc.) were required and is very often done. If this is the case the doctor on call appears to being careful.

Some kind of harm or injury is required for medical negligence. The harm here seems to be a bad night's sleep. This all seems complete laughable, money-grubbing and petty. Best of luck with it.

Miaireland

You cannot sue for inconvenience.

Samuel T. Cogley

Negligence, medical or otherwise requires damage IIRC.

antix80

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

He basically ruined the patients night.

Maybe patient will think twice about wasting precious resources.

Doc on call is for urgent cases but not emergency cases.

If it sounded like an emergency the doc was right to tell your friend to go to the A&E. By the time the doc arrived your friend could have succumbed to his.. headache?

average_runner

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

The patient hosptial is half hour away, he had no way of getting home and had to remain in hosptial the entire night, then have his wife come in the middle of the night with their children who also had fevers to come and get him. He basically ruined the patients night. I don't think medical harm is neccessary in a case of medical negligence. Medical negligence means you just failed to offer duty of care surely?

A doc on the phone told us to bring our daughter to a hospital without seeing her and was the right call.

An half hour distance is nothing and no taxi's around?

The Jammy dodger

thomasdylan wrote: »

Sounds like someone looking for a payday.

Is this a situation where a GP on call advised a patient to go to hospital directly instead of being assessed by the Gp on call? Makes complete sense if they felt hospital investigations (Xray, bloods,etc.) were required and is very often done. If this is the case the doctor on call appears to being careful.

Some kind of harm or injury is required for medical negligence. The harm here seems to be a bad night's sleep. This all seems complete laughable, money-grubbing and petty. Best of luck with it.

According to the doctor in the hospital, the patient didn't have the symptoms required for a hospital visit from the nature of the phonecall. They told him the doctors are always doing this because they can't be arsed to see them and so they throw them down to us, fill up our ward and they wonder why there's no beds.

I get there's no legal case, as there must be an adverse effect upon the person and being financially, mentally and physically exhausted as a result just isn't sufficient I get that. I think the person in question just wants to bring the doctor to justice doesn't care about the money. His own GP advised him this morning that he was right, the doctor couldn't be arsed to see him and that it's most likely he will receive a warning and be taken off their list of use for doctors on call.

This tells me the man is in the right if the GP having listened to the information is backing him up and pursuing the matter. The GP also says many doctors who cant be bothered are prone to doing this. Therefore, no legal case but still they're getting away with not tending to people and causing them and the hospital wards grave inconvenience.

There's enough people on those trollies don't you think?

punisher5112

Unfortunately things happen and taxis are available to be used in such circumstances.

The on call doctor must have deemed it necessary to go to hospital.

I've gone to see my own doctor i got checked over and he says... Nicely of course.
Eh I've a little bad news for you you need to get into hospital asap and he gave me a letter and I went and was taken care of right away.

antix80

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

There's enough people on those trollies don't you think?

"he had no way of getting home and had to remain in hosptial the entire night, then have his wife come in the middle of the night with their children who also had fevers to come and get him"

So he got to the hospital and had no way to get home so he had to sleep on a trolley the whole night except when his wife came in the middle of the night to get him ................. Please tell us more about this dysfunctional health system that distorts space and time to fit a narrative.

The Jammy dodger

antix80 wrote: »

"he had no way of getting home and had to remain in hosptial the entire night, then have his wife come in the middle of the night with their children who also had fevers to come and get him"

So he got to the hospital and had no way to get home so he had to sleep on a trolley the whole night except when his wife came in the middle of the night to get him ................. Please tell us more about this dysfunctional health system that distorts space and time to fit a narrative.

Antix it's people like yourself who are unwilling to chase the monkey of the ego off their back, admit there's a fault in the system where doctors on call are being lazy that makes everything wrong with this country. Far too many people here are always cynical towards the small guy coming in to post his problem and far too protective of the ''poor gps who have to put up with people they inconvenience, such as the hospitals they fill up with cases that don't warrant admission.''

Samuel T. Cogley

Suing is not always the answer. If you feel that strongly about it why not make a complaint to the professional body that I assume doctors belong to.

The Jammy dodger

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Suing is not always the answer. If you feel that strongly about it why not make a complaint to the professional body that I assume doctors belong to.

Yes you're right, that's what he's done, made a complaint to the medical council along with his credible witnesses to the conversation and information.

Graces7

Thank you for this. Has happened to me a few times when I was living deep rural 2 hours from the hospital. Call emergency dr who advises to call an ambulance. Makes perfect sense and is wise rather than GP taking hours to get there. etc etc

thomasdylan wrote: »

Sounds like someone looking for a payday.

Is this a situation where a GP on call advised a patient to go to hospital directly instead of being assessed by the Gp on call? Makes complete sense if they felt hospital investigations (Xray, bloods,etc.) were required and is very often done. If this is the case the doctor on call appears to being careful.

Some kind of harm or injury is required for medical negligence. The harm here seems to be a bad night's sleep. This all seems complete laughable, money-grubbing and petty. Best of luck with it.

coylemj

The people you call out of hours, they get paid cash don't they? So wasn't that doctor passing up his professional fees by telling the people to take the patient straight to hospital?

Or can someone with a medical card call out a doctor (local GP or out of hours service) at any hour of the day or night and get the service for free?

I don't get how a doctor fulfilling an out of hours service can be described as 'lazy' - they know what's involved so why would they sign up to do this work if, when they get a call to see a patient, they direct them straight to hospital because they 'can't be arsed to see them' (OP's words)?

splinter65

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

Right, I was told a different story by the doctor of the hosptial that he is supposed to see the patient first before admitting them here, failure to do that is neglect to duty of care especially when your symptoms didn't warrant admission. He says some doctors are notorious for this behaviour. But you're saying doctors could just lie and basically say he thought it was the best decision available to him? I can see how that would be difficult case as it would be his word against the patients.

It’s just your opinion that the GP was “lying”. The GP will say that it was his professional opinion.
When you call a GP that’s what you are doing . Seeking his professional opinion.
No legal causation here.

splinter65

coylemj wrote: »

The people you call out of hours, they get paid cash don't they? So wasn't that doctor passing up his professional fees by telling the people to take the patient straight to hospital?

Or can someone with a medical card call out a doctor (local GP or out of hours service) at any hour of the day or night and get the service for free?

I don't get how a doctor fulfilling an out of hours service can be described as 'lazy' - they know what's involved so why would they sign up to do this work if, when they get a call to see a patient, they direct them straight to hospital because they 'can't be arsed to see them' (OP's words)?

If you have a medical card then you can avail of the out of hours service for free.
The Out of hours service doctor doesn’t get paid per patient. He gets a set fee per year for signing up for the out of hours service

splinter65

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

The patient hosptial is half hour away, he had no way of getting home and had to remain in hosptial the entire night, then have his wife come in the middle of the night with their children who also had fevers to come and get him. He basically ruined the patients night. I don't think medical harm is neccessary in a case of medical negligence. Medical negligence means you just failed to offer duty of care surely?

He had a sleepless night so he wants to sue the doctor? Hope his solicitor sends him a nice big fat roundy bill that gives him a few more sleepless nights.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Having spoken to several doctors who do on call work a significant minority of people exaggerate their symptoms to the doctors on call in the hope that its a triage based list and they are more likely to be seen.

The on call service is often like A&E under resourced. I seriously doubt a doctor couldn't be arsed to see a patient.

It's much more likely that they were stretched in resources and it appeared that A&E was more suitable.

Now it turned out that the doctor in the A&E didn't think your visit was worth the trip to A&E. Now we have a difference of professional opinion between two doctors.

Most likely if there's a complaint the doctor will pull out his note pad of the conversation and say the patient reported these 5 symptoms as a severe problem. The A&E doctor will say they didn't have symptom 1 and symptoms 2-5 were not severe.

The reviewers will review both sets of testimony and decide that the patient doesn't know the meaning of the word severe.

In an ideal world doctors on call would see patients prior to referring them onwards but they don't always have the resources to do so. While they could be just lazy doctors on call who don't see average numbers of patients would be criticised for that.

nuac

Mod
Title amended
Closed for mods' review

coylemj

The Jammy dodger wrote: »

According to the doctor in the hospital, the patient didn't have the symptoms required for a hospital visit from the nature of the phonecall.

When you refer to a 'phonecall', is that the original call to the out of hours service, or did the on call doctor phone ahead to A&E to decribe the symptoms - as reported to him?

coylemj

splinter65 wrote: »

If you have a medical card then you can avail of the out of hours service for free.

No wonder they're overloaded and bounce patients to A&E. Deliver us from hypochondriacs and hypochondriac (by proxy) parents.

If they had to pay even €5 per call, it would probably halve the number of callouts. Money better spent on beer and pizza.