Issues with Creche (4 year old)

tart29016

Hi there,

Just a couple of issues that I wanted to get your thoughts on.

My little one will be 4 in November. She has been going to this crèche in rathfarnham for the past year and half. During this time she moved class 3 times. The creche changed approximaly 8 teachers in her class. The most recent class move was at the start of September 2019.

The way the creche deals with moving class is “apparently according to children’s’ age”. I have queried with them and got this answer, now there is no way to verify that statement. Some of her friends moved to a different class as they were born before Sep (which is the cut off time according to the creche’s policy) whereas my daughter was born in November. So there is the “regular” change of class and teaches that cause issues for her. Is this a common thing in Creche?

The other issue is in relation to her current teacher. She has a male teacher and one of the only 2 male teachers in the Creche. For the past week I have noticed (during drop off and pick up times) issues around:
• him not being attentive,
• lack of energy in the morning drop off time
• and just generally appear to be not too bothered with kids.
I have raised the issues with the supervisors and have seen little improvements.

Am I being too fussy about these things or should we be looking to change to a different creche?

markpb

In my childrens creche, they typically move through 6 rooms between 6 months and 4-5 years when they leave for school. The first room is up to 1yo and each room is about 6-9 months. Children are moved depending on their maturity and development. Some rooms have criteria before children can move into them (e.g. won't move into apple drops until they're potty trained). We've always been consulted before our children moved, some times we were happy for them to move earlier if the staff and us though they were ready. Other times we asked for the move to be postponed, typically because a holiday or something else was going on and it would be disruptive. The reason given for the room changes is to ensure that the children in each room are relatively close together in terms of development. It allows the staff to do the same activities with all children, without any of them being unable to do it or without some of the children feeling un-challenged or bored.

Unfortunately, a lot of creches depend on foreign staff (Spanish or Italian typically) who have no intention of living in Ireland for more than a few years or their staff are Irish who are using it to build up experience before they move into another career. It's not a well paid job so even the staff who would like to do it as a career are unable to stay once they have children of their own. This leads to a relatively high level of turn-over which is a pain

drunkmonkey

I think your overthinking it, kids have different friends the whole time and will for the next few years, if the creche move them about what about it, she'll probably be there for the next year or two so will lose some friends to big school next year.
Guys stay up later than girls so probably aren't as fresh in the morning so wouldn't be too hard on them as long as your child isn't upset or scared. I think it's a good thing there's some guys there a lot of creches are all women so it's good to have some balance.
Anyway if your daughter is happy that's the main thing, if she's kicking and screaming going in or scared then it's time to really look what's going on. You haven't mentioned it some I assume she's fine so relax. Let them get on with it.

salmocab

Saying a crèche in Rathfarnham with two male staff members is going to make it and probably you quite identifiable I would think.
The fact that you give out about the staff member and say it’s a male is odd if it was a female member of staff would you have mentioned it?
Also September would be a very normal time to move kids as it’s the start of a new school year for ecce and the kids leaving.

tart29016

I maybe overthingking it but her friends moved to a bigger class and their teacher(s) have the best repuation in the whole creche. I regularly bump into other parents in the Creche and have not heard a bad word but praises for this class. And I suppose I just kind feel bad because our bad luck with the new class and new teacher. And I know we can;t do anything about it as it is their policy to move children according to their age.

This is her second week in the new class and she has been mainly ok at drop off time. This morning however she made a little fuss about it with some screaming and crying but I guess it is the "Monday syndrome".

tart29016

salmocab wrote: »

Saying a crèche in Rathfarnham with two male staff members is going to make it and probably you quite identifiable I would think.
The fact that you give out about the staff member and say it’s a male is odd if it was a female member of staff would you have mentioned it?
Also September would be a very normal time to move kids as it’s the start of a new school year for ecce and the kids leaving.

Sorry if I appear to be giving out to a male staff member. But I just wanted to discuss the issues that I have experienced with other board members. I think we are paying a lot of money for creche service and we should be able to expect a certain level of care.

To answer your question, I absolutely would mentioned it if it was a female staff member but it wasn't.

salmocab

tart29016 wrote: »

Sorry if I appear to be giving out to a male staff member. But I just wanted to discuss the issues that I have experienced with other board members. I think we are paying a lot of money for creche service and we should be able to expect a certain level of care.

To answer your question, I absolutely would mentioned it if it was a female staff member but it wasn't.

I have a 4 year old in crèche nearby so I have experience, I think the sex of the staff member shouldn’t even be mentioned unless it’s somehow relevant. As already said there is high turnover of staff in crèches as the wages aren’t great although some are paying a bit better than others in Dublin to try to retain staff with some getting between 12 and 15 an hour which whilst not great money isn’t awful either. I wouldn’t have any worries if I were you so long as the child is happy. The success of the ecce scheme means that crèches now have more children of that age and therefore extra classes so kids will get split away from their pals occasionally

Princess Calla

I really don't see the need to reference the gender, I also don't think you would have referenced it if they were female as the general assumption is that this is a female industry.

Generally in crèches it is judged on age, different ages have different staff ratios. If it's a big enough crèche they may have more than one room for the age group and may be further divided by the childs development.

The first crèche we had ours in, the same minders were there for the two yrs we attended that crèche very little staff movement. We moved house and leaving that crèche was the hardest part of the move. That said there was one member of staff that had the lazy gene, thankfully they were not assigned to our room only as a cover.....but there's always one in every place of work.

I think high staff turnovers in any place of work are a red flag.

If you are not happy have you the option to move them to another crèche? Otherwise I don't see many options, you have raised concerns with management, they can't remove staff on the basis of one persons observations. They are also not going to tell you if there's been other complaints and they are monitoring the situation. The person maybe excellent with the children but doesn't really engage with parents.

tart29016

Ok, first of all thank you for your comments.

Everyone is entiled to their opinion and I appreciate yours.

My own thoughts are:

1) I don't have any issues with male teachers as long as they are doing a good jod. In an ideal world bad teachers will be replaced by good teachers regardless of whether they are male or female. But we all know this won't happen in reality.
2) If I saw issues I will raise them, you can call it giving out or whatever but I am not that kind of person who would keep quite to themselves and hope everything will be huncky Dory.
3) I don't know if this is just my own observation or if others have seen something similar. But I believe if enough of us raise similar issues the management of the creche will have to act on it.

Our options are not great so I don't know what I can do. I will need to think about it or maybe give it another 2-4 weeks to see if anything changes.

salmocab

If we take it that your over the moving up class bit which you suggest you are then really your only gripe is with the guy not seeming to be too bothered in the morning and not interacting enough with the kids, he may be a great teacher though and you could be trying to move, which by the way would be a right pain in that area to find a place for a 4 year old, just to get away from a particular staff member. He may be s great staff member and the management may be very happy with him which is what matters to them. They can replace your child a lot easier and quicker than they can replace him I would think.

tart29016

To be honest, the moving class bit has left a sour taste in my mouth. But I am trying to get over it as long as the little girl settles in to the new room and seems generally happy about going to creche.
Another poster mentioned that their creche would discuss changing class with them before it happens and there had not been any discussion whatsoever for our child. And it is sort like oh by the way your little one is going to be in this class. But sure as you and others pointed out there is not much I can do. If we got assigned to someone with a lazy gene, well then it is just bad luck.

I see your point that he could be a great teacher but I haven't seen any indications (yet) that this is the case. I am willing to stay for a while and reassess the situation. And yeah, replacing a child vs replacing a staff, this ain’t rocket science.

Princess Calla

Exactly if you see an issue by all means raise it, it would be wrong not to. Also, yes if there's an issue and enough parents complain then you would hope management will act on the complaint.

My little one started back in the ecce scheme last week and by the sounds of it they are not with the same kids they were with last year. However when I picked them up today they told me they had moved into a different class.... Only back a week and in two different classes. When normality resumes then I'll properly ask who's in their class.

However I have to say it does seem like you have an issue with the minder being male....as another poster stated the crèche is probably easily recognisable from your post.

In many ways you did the equivalent of starting a thread on the motor forum, saying I've been bringing my car to X garage for years but now the female mechanic doesn't listen when I'm dropping in the car........we don't need to know the gender of the mechanic to offer advice.... By stating the gender especially when it's the opposite to industry norm, it's indicating a bias, whether intentional or not.

I hope your situation sorts itself out, the most important thing is your child is happy and your comfortable leaving them otherwise you may need to change crèche or hire a childminder.

tart29016

The opening post may have emphasised it that her teacher is a male but if you read it again my issue is not because she has a male teacher. My issue is that the teacher is not or appears to not be doing a good job. And by the way, he happens to be a male.

I have never said that I don't want male teachers for my daughter.

I really do not have a bias towards male teacher but since those are the facts in my case I don't see why I should not mention it in my post.

Princess Calla

To be honest I think you are looking for problems where there probably isn't one.

I do think it's the norm for crèches to move children based on age and development.

It sounds like your crèche has a clear rule "September " about places in a certain class, I don't see why you'd expect them to discuss an existing rule with all the parents each year.

Unfortunately your child missed out on getting into the popular class and your not happy.

You're now not happy with the new teacher based on 5 minutes of drop offs and collections so you've complained to management. I'm making an assumption that the new classes came into force last week with new term, so you've given this person 5 days, though not sure when you complained to management.

By all means complain about bad behaviours but you've hardly given them a chance.

Plus you really didn't need to reference the area as I'm sure people in the area know who your talking about which really isn't fair on the person.

tart29016

There are roughly 15 creches in Rathfarnham and I don't think I was out of order to say what I said. Why so defencesive?

If the Mod thinks thats the case I can edit my posts.

Like I said, duing our time with this place we have seen high staff turnover. (this appears to be the norm). Some less than a few weeks and others a few month. As a parent, I have seen first hand the lack of care, inexperience and general attitutde issues with some of the minders. So I think I know how to identify problems.

Do you think looking into people's old thread in a different forum and posting in here is offering any construtive advice? I don't think so.

drunkmonkey

tart29016 wrote: »

As a parent, I have seen first hand the lack of care.

If that's what you seeing get her out of there.

Princess Calla

I never looked into anyones old threads. I gave an example of a female mechanic to illustrate a point. Gender should never come into a discussion about work ethics or practices, no more so than race, sexuality etc etc.

I don't know the area at all so I've no clue how many crèches are there. I do however know crèches with male staff are rare so probably easier to identify. I know this from a friend trying to find a crèche with male teachers.

You've listed a whole load of negatives relating to the crèche which I presume you would have overlooked if your child got into the popular class.

If you are seeing such a lack of duty of care, then it's your duty to remove your child. There are 14 other crèches in the area by your previous post.

salmocab

Princess Calla wrote: »

I never looked into anyones old threads. I gave an example of a female mechanic to illustrate a point. Gender should never come into a discussion about work ethics or practices, no more so than race, sexuality etc etc.

I don't know the area at all so I've no clue how many crèches are there. I do however know crèches with male staff are rare so probably easier to identify. I know this from a friend trying to find a crèche with male teachers.

You've listed a whole load of negatives relating to the crèche which I presume you would have overlooked if your child got into the popular class.

If you are seeing such a lack of duty of care, then it's your duty to remove your child. There are 14 other crèches in the area by your previous post.

There is close to zero chance of those 14 crèches having a place for a 4 year old.

Princess Calla

Well then maybe they need to look at other options. A childminder, au pair, family members, using parental leave, taking time off work etc.

On the plus side the child is close to 4 so I presume will be going to school next year.

At this point I'm not sure what else can be said.

Yes, children change rooms in the crèche.

Yes it's an industry with high staff turnover.

Yes some staff are more enthusiastic than others.

Yes some staff are better than others.

If you are not happy with a situation, discuss with management, if still not happy come up with an alternative in this case remove the child.

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

I have a 4 year old in crèche nearby so I have experience, I think the sex of the staff member shouldn’t even be mentioned unless it’s somehow relevant. As already said there is high turnover of staff in crèches as the wages aren’t great although some are paying a bit better than others in Dublin to try to retain staff with some getting between 12 and 15 an hour which whilst not great money isn’t awful either. I wouldn’t have any worries if I were you so long as the child is happy. The success of the ecce scheme means that crèches now have more children of that age and therefore extra classes so kids will get split away from their pals occasionally

Would you work for 12 to 15 euro an houre while being expected to have a degree or even with out a degree?

mordeith

Maybe I'm missing something but but the OP keeps mentioning creche and teachers. Aren't creche only for minding children as opposed to educating them i.e preschool, Montessori?

salmocab

mariaalice wrote: »

Would you work for 12 to 15 euro an houre while being expected to have a degree or even with out a degree?

They aren’t expected to have a degree just level 5, I actually said they money isn’t great but it has gone up to that level which isn’t great but not awful. It’s well above minimum wage. It’s a course that can be got online in about 9 months.
Personally I think they are worth more but that’s the highest end of what the industry pays. Not sure why you seem to think I was belittling or knocking the work they do

Princess Calla

mordeith wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something but but the OP keeps mentioning creche and teachers. Aren't creche only for minding children as opposed to educating them i.e preschool, Montessori?

The child is 4 so probably has moved up to preschool which I think was part of the angst as didn't get the popular class.

I still say crèche even though mine is in pre school too, I use it as a catch all term to be honest.

They do learn stuff in crèche, they'll do their abc's, parts of body, nursery rhymes, seasonal things like Christmas, holloween, easter. Mine came home with a few yoga moves.

In preschool they build on all these things, plus develop hygiene standards, washing hands, teeth. They do different themes each week, numbers, letters, lego, space, beach, trees etc

But yeah I wouldn't be getting too worked up over the education end of things. For me the important things are they are happy, everyday isn't a struggle of course there will be bumps if things change. My little one does not take well to change. They are playing with and making friends. They are not coming home with cuts and bruises etc.

Princess Calla

tart29016 wrote: »

There are roughly 15 creches in Rathfarnham and I don't think I was out of order to say what I said. Why so defencesive?
o.

I'm not being defensive.

You have given the location of the crèche, you have told us there are two male staff members, you have told us they have a policy around moving children based on "September " birthday, you have told us your daughter is born in November you have also told us that you complained to management.

Ireland is small, Dublin smaller and Rathfarnham even smaller. Guaranteed someone who works in that crèche, or one of their relatives has seen your post, maybe that was the idea.

However if I was the owner/ manager I wouldn't be too impressed and it be easy enough to identify you, only need to look at the two male classes, female children born in November and what parent has complained.

You could have given details of your situation and still kept it vague.

For want of a better phrase becareful not to "bite the hand that feeds you"

You are still leaving your child in their care. It just really feels like you didn't get your way and now trying to shame them on the Internet.

I could be completely wrong but as an outsider looking in that's how it seems.

Personally I wouldn't post anything that could identify what crèche I use.

Neyite

It is the norm to move rooms based on age. It's also common to have a high staff turnover in the industry. Both of those happened in my son's excellent creche.



But if you have misgivings on the standard of care, or feel that the staff are inattentive or not doing their job to the detriment of the child then it might be worth considering if it's the right childcare arrangement for you. I suppose you'd need to talk to a lot of other parents to see if they are actually issues specific to your creche or if it's something that you'll move creches only to find that they operate in a similar way. You could talk to the creche manager if you know for sure there's an actual issue where the staff are failing.

neris

No. Through all ages in creches now from baby up to pre school theres planning and curriculum guidelines that they all follow relevant to age groups. The creche might not necessarily be teaching very small children how to read and write but they teach life skills such as interaction, socialisation, singing, washing, eating and others. The minister wants staff in creches to be qualified to a high level but doesnt care they are paid peanuts compared to primary teachers.

mordeith wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something but but the OP keeps mentioning creche and teachers. Aren't creche only for minding children as opposed to educating them i.e preschool, Montessori?

optogirl

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think your overthinking it, kids have different friends the whole time and will for the next few years, if the creche move them about what about it, she'll probably be there for the next year or two so will lose some friends to big school next year.
Guys stay up later than girls so probably aren't as fresh in the morning so wouldn't be too hard on them as long as your child isn't upset or scared. I think it's a good thing there's some guys there a lot of creches are all women so it's good to have some balance.
Anyway if your daughter is happy that's the main thing, if she's kicking and screaming going in or scared then it's time to really look what's going on. You haven't mentioned it some I assume she's fine so relax. Let them get on with it.