Budget discussion - grants

listermint

https://twitter.com/IrishTimes/status/1170229091414360065?s=20


Wonder what sort of changes they are going to make. Holding grants for new registrations

slave1

Well get rid of PHEV grant for a start

rolion

Just don't get it...I tough the owners of EVs are a bit smart and very respectful to others. BEVs or PHEVs driving in cities and urban makes same effort towards zero pollution. Unless some are jealous of the immense range extender of the hybrid compared with limited for the electric !?

Very peculiar faces at the public charger:
When I park my BEV, all drivers smiles and happy to chat / exchange thoughts and opinions.
When I park my PHEV, all behaves like I am going to steal their valuable "free of e_charge" payment electrons.

Just don't get it, i said I will start recording on the dashcam their miserable faces...
I do hope it will shift the mood when paid charging comes in effect.

slave1

I have nothing against PHEV but there are plenty of PHEVs driving around on our roads that never use the battery, same in the UK where they were bought to avoid congestion charges/low car tax/low BIK and the are used 100% as petrol cars, especially the Outlander.

phill106

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/motor-trade-told-no-grants-for-electric-cars-until-after-budget-1.4010306?mode=amp

Cant help but wonder what kind of changes are planned for tax vrt etc etc

stesaurus

Hopefully no more PHEV grants

Round Cable

stesaurus wrote: »

Hopefully no more PHEV grants

Or maybe even the €1500 hybrid grant.

kaahooters

slave1 wrote: »

I have nothing against PHEV but there are plenty of PHEVs driving around on our roads that never use the battery, same in the UK where they were bought to avoid congestion charges/low car tax/low BIK and the are used 100% as petrol cars, especially the Outlander.

they all still act as regular hybrids, and still better then a diesel for the emissions.

MorganIRL

Is there any mention of VRT changing??

Markcheese

Somethings gotta give...
How much is collected in tax, between vrt, vat, fuel taxes Ect from the motor industry...
So if there's going to be encouragement for electric vehicles there's gotta funds from somewhere...
(does anyone know has there been a major change in tax income from motoring, between 2008 and now? Ie. The taxation encouraged switch to diesel)

Incidentally i for one welcome our new electrical transport overlords...

daheff

stesaurus wrote: »

Hopefully no more PHEV grants

Why?

Surely get people into a car that they can start off at as an ev than stop some people altogether.

Some people still have range/charging anxiety. Having comfort knowing they can use petrol if they need to helps get them transitioned. Once they start they are unlikely to go back

Mike9832

Needed to happen

Agree on phev grant removal

Prices are a joke on BEV

Kona diesel €21,000, Kona EV €48,000

We can't keep paying autogiants R&D

Hopefully it's a sliding scale

100% grant for sub €30,000, 75% sub €35,000 etc

No €100,000 Tesla, Audi, Merc etc should be getting a grant

digiman

Mike9832 wrote: »

No €100,000 Tesla, Audi, Merc etc should be getting a grant

Why not?

Mike9832

digiman wrote: »

Why not?

We need to get masses into electric cars

phill106

stesaurus wrote: »

Hopefully no more PHEV grants

Surely moving to phev is at least some advantage over a full petrol or diesel?

Im thinking of going to a phev soon, as i like the ideas of electric cars, but for several reasons, the majority of full electric cars wouldnt suit my lifetyle..

digiman

Mike9832 wrote: »

digiman wrote: »

Why not?

We need to get masses into electric cars

We need to encourage everyone to get an electric car and not penalise someone for wanting to buy a nice car

tom1ie

digiman wrote: »

We need to encourage everyone to get an electric car and not penalise someone for wanting to buy a nice car

if your spending 100k on a car, you don't need a grant towards it.

ForestFire

tom1ie wrote: »

if your spending 100k on a car, you don't need a grant towards it.

Exactly, the grant should be for the bacis model in each segment to assist the lower end of the market, as it will be these people who will struggle more with the switch to electric.

It should not be for the relatively wealthy, and not for any types of impracital or inefficient cars, I. E sports cars, 2 seater, limos, luxury etc.

In fact I would remove the grant completely, and put more prussure on the auto makers to reduce prices in line with desiles more.

Any support money should be invested in charging points, network upgrades etc.

stesaurus

daheff wrote: »

Why?

Surely get people into a car that they can start off at as an ev than stop some people altogether.

Some people still have range/charging anxiety. Having comfort knowing they can use petrol if they need to helps get them transitioned. Once they start they are unlikely to go back

Because as a taxpayer I don't want to be incentivizing PHEVs or HEVs. They are just a tax dodge really and I say this as a PHEV owner.
I'm happy to encourage EV growth though and that's where these funds should be directed. EVs are ready for the masses at this point, it's mainly a supply issue now.

kanuseeme

Kona diesel €21,000, Kona EV €48,000

increase the cost of buying a diesel by creating a Future Universal Carbon Kilogram Initiative Tax, this new tax should be easy and would help people switch to an EV fairly quickly.

colm_mcm

kanuseeme wrote: »

Kona diesel €21,000, Kona EV €48,000

increase the cost of buying a diesel by creating a Future Universal Carbon Kilogram Initiative Tax, this new tax should be easy and would help people switch to an EV fairly quickly.

Catchy name too, easy to remember.

listermint

phill106 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/motor-trade-told-no-grants-for-electric-cars-until-after-budget-1.4010306?mode=amp

Cant help but wonder what kind of changes are planned for tax vrt etc etc

Yeah I opened that thread this morning......

kanuseeme

And the 2nd comment in both was to get rid of grants for phev's

phill106

listermint wrote: »

Yeah I opened that thread this morning......

apologies i didnt see it, and i did look first

rolion

stesaurus wrote: »

Because as a taxpayer I don't want to be incentivizing PHEVs or HEVs. They are just a tax dodge really and I say this as a PHEV owner.
I'm happy to encourage EV growth though and that's where these funds should be directed. EVs are ready for the masses at this point, it's mainly a supply issue now.

Sorry for picking on you but may I ask you to develop the tax dodge, please !?

There are no "tax dodge" on BIK, none in road tax, same price for petrol fuel, same price for charging at public charger, same charger as charging at home... where is the hidden secret advantage !??

Just don't get the fcuking hate towards PHEVs !
And own a BEV and a PHEV...

ted1

tom1ie wrote: »

if your spending 100k on a car, you don't need a grant towards it.

You might, the buyer could buy an ICE. The more EVs on the road the more awareness and hence you’ll get a trickle down effect.

liamog

rolion wrote: »

Sorry for picking on you but may I ask you to develop the tax dodge, please !?

There are no "tax dodge" on BIK, none in road tax, same price for petrol fuel, same price for charging at public charger, same charger as charging at home... where is the hidden secret advantage !??

Just don't get the fcuking hate towards PHEVs !
And own a BEV and a PHEV...

Studies from the UK showed that there are basically two kinds of PHEV owner, those who charge every day and make it work, and those who barely plug it in and should have just bought a hybrid. The only reason they were buying PHEVs was for the subsidy and reduced BIK.

When they removed the PHEV grants sales dropped to less than half whilst BEV sales continued to increase. There are enough long range EVs available new going into 2020 that it makes sense to remove the subsidies from them.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

tom1ie wrote: »

if your spending 100k on a car, you don't need a grant towards it.

While that seems logical and certainly a popular opinion. But when you can spend 100k you have a lot of options. Anything that would make you choose something greener is a good thing.

Changing the attitudes of people with options is what its all about. Those without options cant be changed.

ForestFire

Avery Fancy Eyelash wrote: »

While that seems logical and certainly a popular opinion. But when you can spend 100k you have a lot of options. Anything that would make you choose something greener is a good thing.

Changing the attitudes of people with options is what its all about. Those without options cant be changed.

5k grant on a 100k car is about 5% of the sales price, so therefore not a huge difference in your choice. (you could probable easily negotate this off anyway)

5k grant on a 30k car is about 17%, so would have a much better impact.

Also luxury cars of 100k will have more power, us energy quicker and not as effienct, will have e teas like heater seats, heated steering wheel, bigger dash screens all eating energy.

Grants should be focused on mainstream cars targeted at those where a grant has a major impact on a change of their choice to eV.

Again I will stress, I belive grants only support a higher list price for car companies and they are making the higher profits and keeping prices as high as possible, as they know the grant is there. We should remove them completely in favour of infrastructure.

Also do people really think these grants will still be available to the ordinary mass market buyers?

Phileas Frog

ForestFire wrote: »

Again I will stress, I belive grants only support a higher list price for car companies and they are making the higher profits and keeping prices as high as possible, as they know the grant is there. We should remove them completely in favour of infrastructure.

You're incorrect in your assertion, all you need to do is to compare the prices of the same cars in Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

ForestFire

Phileas Frog wrote: »

You're incorrect in your assertion, all you need to do is to compare the prices of the same cars in Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

I said "I believe" so I think you'll find I am correct

Is there EV grants in Germany and other countries?

But my point is, that if you offer grants, manufutures will always set and adjust their prices to maximise profits as much as possible.

If there are grants, and they can raise prices without impacting sales too much, they will do it.

If there are no grants, they will reduce prices as much as possible to generate sales.

They know they are competing with desiles and petrols and in a free market will manufacture and price to meet this.

stesaurus

rolion wrote: »

Sorry for picking on you but may I ask you to develop the tax dodge, please !?

There are no "tax dodge" on BIK, none in road tax, same price for petrol fuel, same price for charging at public charger, same charger as charging at home... where is the hidden secret advantage !??

Just don't get the fcuking hate towards PHEVs !
And own a BEV and a PHEV...

None in road tax? I pay 170 per year, just 50 more than a BEV which puts out 0 emissions at source. Mine even charged everyday could only dream of getting the claimed MPG and emissions that it's tax band is based on.
It's the same with the VRT rebate. Completely silly to be offering it but I'll damn sure take advantage while it's available.
PHEVs are a tax dodge. We really shouldn't be offering any incentives on them.

September1

I think new scheme might be more advantageous, it is not like we have too many EVs on road vs government plans so they will try to find something that brings more EVs to Irish roads. Other issues is they might be also running into some unfair competition regulation, as if you buy brand new from dealer outside of state it makes difficult to obtain grant - which sounds like something no EU friendly. Third thing is maybe SEAI grants do not scale that well, and new system would be easier to administer and pay.

Additionally under new EU emissions EV would be a bit more profitable to sell, as they would potentially offset fines on ICE cars - so there could be some balancing needed.

copeyhagen

free road tax, like in the UK would be a good starting point.

daheff

stesaurus wrote: »

I'm happy to encourage EV growth though and that's where these funds should be directed. EVs are ready for the masses at this point, it's mainly a supply issue now.

And cost. don't forget cost!

EV growth includes PHEV. I have a PHEV - mainly use the ev part of the engine. only use the petrol when doing occasional long journey.

Many more people are like me too. PHEV is a lower cost entry to EV world for a lot of people.