Is the Department of Education run by cretins?

Portsalon

Or is this case an outlier?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/school-challenge-decision-to-reenroll-boy-8-expelled-for-assaulting-five-staff-members-striking-one-with-hurl-38467431.html

The gobsh1tes who are forcing the school to re-admit this pupil should each be taken out and battered with a hurley until reality breaks through their thick skulls.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Portsalon wrote: »

Or is this case an outlier?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/school-challenge-decision-to-reenroll-boy-8-expelled-for-assaulting-five-staff-members-striking-one-with-hurl-38467431.html

The gobsh1tes who are forcing the school to re-admit this pupil should each be taken out and battered with a hurley until reality breaks through their thick skulls.

Saw that today, absolute disgrace. Why on earth would you even want your child to back to a school where that's all they will ever be known for now.

Imagine the poor pupils in that school or worse in the child's class. If he can do that to several grown adults what could he do to one of his fellow pupils?

I wouldn't feel safe sending a child into that classroom. Shocking situation!

AlphabetCards

My girlfriend taught in some rough schools in London, and even there (where this behaviour wouldn't be out of place) this would be a permanent exclusion.

Sad times for Ireland ahead.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

AlphabetCards wrote: »

My girlfriend taught in some rough schools in London, and even there (where this behaviour wouldn't be out of place) this would be a permanent exclusion.

Sad times for Ireland ahead.

If I was expected to return to teaching a child that assaulted me (and it sounds like it was a vicious assault) I'd be looking for a new job while taking the board of education to the workplace relations commission for unfair dismissal.

I'd also be going after the parents for compensation for my injuries, parents who appear to have a brass neck even appealing the school boards decision in the first place.

TheValeyard

The only way it will stop is when teachers who are assaulted go out on sick leave and sue the dept of education.

And to answer the OPs question, the Dept. Of Education is run by a shower of incompetent buffoons who have no real interest or understanding of education.

Damien360

The child is to be enrolled in the ASD class. You don't get into that without reason. The child needs help both educationally and mentally. The ASD class is a start which that school seems to have. This mental help will be there until the child is 16 and then the rug gets pulled.

ASD kids frustration will present often as violence. They need help understanding why and how to control this. Be it with medication or occupational therapy. The hardest part is getting a diagnosis as the system is a pile of crap.

I have a child with ASD and have had to deal with ill informed idiots who identity as teachers. I have also dealt with clueless parents who tell their little Johnnie what they think of him.

I hope to God none of you people that posted so far are teachers. Please inform/educate yourself.

Damien360

Damien360 wrote: »

The child is to be enrolled in the ASD class. You don't get into that without reason. The child needs help both educationally and mentally. The ASD class is a start which that school seems to have. This mental help will be there until the child is 16 and then the rug gets pulled.

ASD kids frustration will present often as violence. They need help understanding why and how to control this. Be it with medication or occupational therapy. The hardest part is getting a diagnosis as the system is a pile of crap.

I have a child with ASD and have had to deal with ill informed idiots who identity as teachers. I have also dealt with clueless parents who tell their little Johnnie what they think of him.

I hope to God none of you people that posted so far are teachers. Please inform/educate yourself.

Agreed, but not ok to put other pupils at risk all the same. Home tuition until the behaviour is addressed with a gradual return to school would be best.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Damien360 wrote: »

The child is to be enrolled in the ASD class. You don't get into that without reason. The child needs help both educationally and mentally. The ASD class is a start which that school seems to have. This mental help will be there until the child is 16 and then the rug gets pulled.

ASD kids frustration will present often as violence. They need help understanding why and how to control this. Be it with medication or occupational therapy. The hardest part is getting a diagnosis as the system is a pile of crap.

I have a child with ASD and have had to deal with ill informed idiots who identity as teachers. I have also dealt with clueless parents who tell their little Johnnie what they think of him.

I hope to God none of you people that posted so far are teachers. Please inform/educate yourself.

But would you really want to send your child back the same school though if they hospitalised several staff at 8 years of age? Would you take a decision to expel him to the high court.


What if it was another 8 year old child that was at the end of his assaults? What happens then?

I'd imagine a lot of staff and parents at that school will be very unhappy with the outcome.

Who provides help and support to the other poor kids who I'm sure had to witness some of this carry on in the first place?

Damien360

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed, but not ok to put other pupils at risk all the same. Home tuition until the behaviour is addressed with a gradual return to school would be best.

I guarantee the home is as bad as school behavior. I have smashed plaster board walls in my home to testify to that.

Home tuition by who ? The department of education ?

The ASD unit is not in every school and the parents have likely identified this school as their mechanism for help. A proper ASD unit will have the child separate to other kids with the protection for the child, staff and other kids. If the school has the unit then this is the best place for the child.

TheValeyard

Damien360 wrote: »

The child is to be enrolled in the ASD class. You don't get into that without reason. The child needs help both educationally and mentally. The ASD class is a start which that school seems to have. This mental help will be there until the child is 16 and then the rug gets pulled.

ASD kids frustration will present often as violence. They need help understanding why and how to control this. Be it with medication or occupational therapy. The hardest part is getting a diagnosis as the system is a pile of crap.

I have a child with ASD and have had to deal with ill informed idiots who identity as teachers. I have also dealt with clueless parents who tell their little Johnnie what they think of him.

I hope to God none of you people that posted so far are teachers. Please inform/educate yourself.

A child with issues that result in violence CANNOT and should not be put into a mainstream class with other students nor given a teacher without specialised ASD training.

While I sympathise with your situation, it's also unfair for mainstream teachers to be put in a situation like that or unfair on other students were are also entitled to anyone education without the risk of violent outbursts from other fellow students.

Damien360

Bjorn Ambitious Violinist wrote: »

But would you really want to send your child back the same school though if they hospitalised several staff at 8 years of age? Would you take a decision to expel him to the high court.


What if it was another 8 year old child that was at the end of his assaults? What happens then?

I'd imagine a lot of staff and parents at that school will be very unhappy with the outcome.

Who provides help and support to the other poor kids who I'm sure had to witness some of this carry on in the first place?

This carry on as.you call it is mental issues that need help. If it was your child and you were at the end of your tether, you just might understand. If the ASD unit is done correctly, then other kids won't have issues.

Damien360

TheValeyard wrote: »

A child with issues that result in violence CANNOT and should not be put into a mainstream class with other students nor given a teacher without specialised ASD training.

While I sympathise with your situation, it's also unfair for mainstream teachers to be put in a situation like that or unfair on other students were are also entitled to anyone education without the risk of violent outbursts from other fellow students.

The very best of luck finding teachers willing to learn or understand ASD. The school in question appears to have a ASD class/unit. That is where the child needs to be. But they still need inclusion somewhere or you end up with a very disfuctional child.

TheValeyard

Damien360 wrote: »

The very best of luck finding teachers willing to learn or understand ASD. The school in question appears to have a ASD class/unit. That is where the child needs to be. But they still need inclusion somewhere or you end up with a very disfuctional child.

It's not the teachers fault they have not been given ASD training. The Dept should be creating specialised roles in this area. I'd also add that even if there is an ASD unit within a school, there has to be limits of tolerance and staff, student safety must be paramount. I wouldnt agree with isolation but if a situation occurs where a child known to have violent outbursts attacks and causes injury to another child, the BOM would not have a leg to stand on in a lawsuit. It would be over before it begun.

I suppose it just depends how far on the spectrum the child is. But if staff are getting assaulted than mainstream environment education may not be the best course of action for the safety of the staff or indeed the child his or herself who may need a dedicated specialist centre about what ASD can provide.

ted1

Damien360 wrote: »

The child is to be enrolled in the ASD class. You don't get into that without reason. The child needs help both educationally and mentally. The ASD class is a start which that school seems to have. This mental help will be there until the child is 16 and then the rug gets pulled.

ASD kids frustration will present often as violence. They need help understanding why and how to control this. Be it with medication or occupational therapy. The hardest part is getting a diagnosis as the system is a pile of crap.

I have a child with ASD and have had to deal with ill informed idiots who identity as teachers. I have also dealt with clueless parents who tell their little Johnnie what they think of him.

I hope to God none of you people that posted so far are teachers. Please inform/educate yourself.

The child clearly isn’t fit for main stream schooling and should be in a specialised school.

"presenting as violence" is violence

Damien360

Damien360 wrote: »

I guarantee the home is as bad as school behavior. I have smashed plaster board walls in my home to testify to that.

Home tuition by who ? The department of education ?

The ASD unit is not in every school and the parents have likely identified this school as their mechanism for help. A proper ASD unit will have the child separate to other kids with the protection for the child, staff and other kids. If the school has the unit then this is the best place for the child.

Exactly why a home tutor would be needed. Yes home tuition is paid by department of education I have worked in it many times under similar circumstances. If the child is to be kept separate to other kids what is the point of a school setting? There is none until the behaviour is addressed and then the child is gradually included in asd unit based on their readiness.

Damien360

Damien360 wrote: »

The very best of luck finding teachers willing to learn or understand ASD. The school in question appears to have a ASD class/unit. That is where the child needs to be. But they still need inclusion somewhere or you end up with a very disfuctional child.

I don’t think this is very representative of teachers I know. All teachers learn about ASD. Many pay to further their education in ASD, myself included. I read a few journals a week to ensure I am up to date on any advances in autism. I attend all courses I can.

Damien360

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don’t think this is very representative of teachers I know. All teachers learn about ASD. Many pay to further their education in ASD, myself included. I read a few journals a week to ensure I am up to date on any advances in autism. I attend all courses I can.

Fair play to you and I mean that. But you are very rare. We have had professionals call the school and they tell us how little the teachers what to learn. I have had many a meeting with teachers over the years and despite them getting written information (detailed I might add), they act as the situation is completely at odds with expectations. ASD is a strange word to be dismissed as new mumbo jumbo. I have had those words said to me by a teacher sitting opposite me with his arms folded refusing to engage.

ted1

Damien360 wrote: »

Fair play to you and I mean that. But you are very rare. We have had professionals call the school and they tell us how little the teachers what to learn. I have had many a meeting with teachers over the years and despite them getting written information (detailed I might add), they act as the situation is completely at odds with expectations. ASD is a strange word to be dismissed as new mumbo jumbo. I have had those words said to me by a teacher sitting opposite me with his arms folded refusing to engage.

Teachers are under pressure with 28 other kids in the class.
If school starts at 9 and finishes at 2:30 that’s only allows 10 minutes per child. How much time would an ASD student need ?

Damien360

ted1 wrote: »

Teachers are under pressure with 28 other kids in the class.
If school starts at 9 and finishes at 2:30 that’s only allows 10 minutes per child. How much time would an ASD student need ?

The amount of times I heard this ****e is unbelievable. Acknowledge the existence of the child takes 10 seconds. Don't exclude but include.

Damien360

Damien360 wrote: »

Fair play to you and I mean that. But you are very rare. We have had professionals call the school and they tell us how little the teachers what to learn. I have had many a meeting with teachers over the years and despite them getting written information (detailed I might add), they act as the situation is completely at odds with expectations. ASD is a strange word to be dismissed as new mumbo jumbo. I have had those words said to me by a teacher sitting opposite me with his arms folded refusing to engage.

I am so sorry this is the case with those you have come across. It really saddens me as I have learned as much if not more from the children I have worked with than they have from me. What has the world come to if teachers are genuinely not wanting to do their best for their pupils. I hope you come across more of us teachers or professionals that love our job in the future and are willing to try their very best to understand their pupils and also engage readily and proactively with you as a parent.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Damien360 wrote: »

The amount of times I heard this ****e is unbelievable. Acknowledge the existence of the child takes 10 seconds. Don't exclude but include.

Every other student in the class had to be removed from the classroom, then later they had to be locked into their classroom to protect them.

Little 8 year olds, watching their teachers getting battered.

cocaliquid

Bjorn Ambitious Violinist wrote: »

Every other student in the class had to be removed from the classroom, then later they had to be locked into their classroom to protect them.

Little 8 year olds, watching their teachers getting battered.

Battering teachers at 8 years old wow. Maybe the teachers are over exaggerating.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

cocaliquid wrote: »

Battering teachers at 8 years old wow. Maybe the teachers are over exaggerating.

Did you read the article?

He chased another pupil around with a hurley and then went on to assault five staff members, two were hospitalised.

He used a hurley as a weapon as well as hitting, punching and kicking. I'm sure with 30+ witnesses they most likely weren't exaggerating..

He used a hurley and a baton to try get back into the class where all the other students had been locked into for their own protection.

This after already being involved in numerous incidents and having on many previous occasions assaulted staff members and other pupils.

Yes I find it hard to believe that an 8 year old would batter their teachers too.....

ted1

Damien360 wrote: »

The amount of times I heard this ****e is unbelievable. Acknowledge the existence of the child takes 10 seconds. Don't exclude but include.

So you reckon a child with ASD who assaults staff and pupils doesn’t take away time that other teachers have with the teacher ?

AlphabetCards

Damien360 wrote: »

Fair play to you and I mean that. But you are very rare. We have had professionals call the school and they tell us how little the teachers what to learn. I have had many a meeting with teachers over the years and despite them getting written information (detailed I might add), they act as the situation is completely at odds with expectations. ASD is a strange word to be dismissed as new mumbo jumbo. I have had those words said to me by a teacher sitting opposite me with his arms folded refusing to engage.

Damien, I get the impression you have a stake in ASD skills in schools. Are you are a consultant of some sort?

Long and short of it, is that if my children were in an ASD classroom and this nightmare child was put into it, I would be devastated. It is basically saying that non-ASD children don't deserve this kind of disruptive and violent class mate, but it is fine for ASD children to put up with.

You are fighting a losing battle by defending a violent child. Time for the parent to homeschool tbh.

cocaliquid

Bjorn Ambitious Violinist wrote: »

Did you read the article?

He chased another pupil around with a hurley and then went on to assault five staff members, two were hospitalised.

He used a hurley as a weapon as well as hitting, punching and kicking. I'm sure with 30+ witnesses they most likely weren't exaggerating..

He used a hurley and a baton to try get back into the class where all the other students had been locked into for their own protection.

This after already being involved in numerous incidents and having on many previous occasions assaulted staff members and other pupils.

Yes I find it hard to believe that an 8 year old would batter their teachers too.....

Whats the world coming too when 5 adults can not defend themselves against a 8 year old. :rolleyes:

Dr Turk Turkelton

cocaliquid wrote: »

Whats the world coming too when 5 adults can not defend themselves against a 8 year old. :rolleyes:

Problem is if they even try to restrain the child the poor put upon mammy will be on the national airwaves complaining about the treatment of her little "angle".

beauf

Worse, they get sued, and the stress and notoriety of that is hard to escape.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

cocaliquid wrote: »

Whats the world coming too when 5 adults can not defend themselves against a 8 year old. :rolleyes:

What else could they do? What would you have done differently in their place?

They managed to protect the other kids and eventually get the hurley from him (at the expense of their own physical wellbeing) so I'd say they did a good job in minimising the damage done to the other students.

Some schools cater for children who are prone to violent outbursts and would have better resources and training to handle these incidents. A mainstream classroom, not so much.

The school staff and parents of the other pupils must be sickened by the high court decision.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Another one here with similarities, hope its not the beginning of a trend.

https://www.thejournal.ie/autism-teen-expelled-4808163-Sep2019/

GalwayLurker

"His mother claimed the school lacks the necessary resources, such as regular speech and language and occupational therapy input, and skills to deal with his needs."

What school has these resources? From a primary point of view we do our best to contact the relevant people such as SLT and OTs but those visits are few and far between. I feel for this poor woman but she's laying the blame at the wrong door I think.

Bells21

Schools are being painted as the bad guys in most of these scenarios because they are the ones that are saying enough is enough. We aren't being provided with the resources we need to help the child and the child isn't receiving a level of professional intervention that will have a meaningful impact on their well-being or ability to learn (OT, SLT, CAMHS, NEPS etc).
The government is always harping on about the rights of the child and yet their policies consistently mean that children languish on waiting lists, in some cases for years. This equates to a child that is not having their needs met. A child entering a school where staff will try their best for this child but ultimately may not have a full picture of this child and their needs because they are waiting on input from the professionals in the know.
Because the child's needs aren't being met fully, yes there could be potential for frustration or aggression. Yes there is an underlying reason behind this but I don't think that a school should be forced into enrolling/re-enrolling a child who is likely to assault staff or other children, without proper Intervention and planning from outside agencies. Why send a child back into the same environment they obviously couldn't cope within the first place without changing anything or assessing if that is even the right type of environment for that child.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Decision has been overturned and the school will not be forced to re-enrol.


"High Court has quashed a decision compelling a rural school to re-enrol an eight-year-old boy who was expelled after assaulting five members of staff – striking one with a hurl.

The judge said and that the decision-makers also failed to take into account the rights of other students at the school to an education, as well as the school’s staff and students’ rights to bodily integrity."

https://www.thejournal.ie/high-court-child-expelled-assault-4825163-Sep2019/