Reference

Portsalon

Daughter's current employer (no names, but one of the major Irish banks) is refusing to give her a reference on the basis that the company doesn't give references.

New employer - in the Irish public service - is refusing to confirm her appointment unless she gets one.

Firstly could it be true that one of the major Irish banks doesn't ever give references?

Secondly, if true, has anyone else encountered this problem and how did they get around it?

Thanks.

thelad95

A lot of companies will give a generic reference (Joe Bloggs commneced employment on X and finished his employment on X, position was supervisor, The End), is she looking for a favourable reference? In this case many companies are very reluctant to do that.

It's very unusual if they're refusing to supply a generic one, is there perhaps confusion as to what is being requested from the company?

Portsalon

thelad95 wrote: »

A lot of companies will give a generic reference (Joe Bloggs commneced employment on X and finished his employment on X, position was supervisor, The End), is she looking for a favourable reference? In this case many companies are very reluctant to do that.

It's very unusual if they're refusing to supply a generic one, is there perhaps confusion as to what is being requested from the company?

It appears that the State Body isn't satisfied with the bare details, which I assume the employer would supply. I honestly don't know what else they expect to get in this day and age, but am trying to find out. I would have thought that the fact that she is still in employment is the bank would imply that her conduct is satisfactory!

Tomw86

Most banks only give a generic reference.

The only way to get a favourable one, which I have used in the past, is to ask a manager/senior team member to provide their details directly and give one over the phone. I have been asked recently to do this myself and was obliging.

HR will not give one, nor will the person be able to put it writing as an 'official' communication from the Company.

Portsalon

The Reference Form must be completed and signed by my daughter's manager.

As the State effectively owns the bank in question and as it's another State organisation that requires the reference, I find it appalling that the employer won't play ball. Perhaps it's time to call Paschal Donoghue's office and get him to kick some well-padded bankers' arses. :mad:

Mrs OBumble

Portsalon wrote: »

The Reference Form must be completed and signed by my daughter's manager.

As the State effectively owns the bank in question and as it's another State organisation that requires the reference, I find it appalling that the employer won't play ball. Perhaps it's time to call Paschal Donoghue's office and get him to kick some well-padded bankers' arses. :mad:

There is no legal requirement to give a reference. Even the moral imperative is decreasing as lawyers get more paranoid about people using.

Even state sector bodies are increasingly refusing to give them.

This should be raised in writing with your TD and the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection.

But there's no obvious solution, except for the state sector body to change their HR policies if they want to hire anyone.

If you have deep pockets, it could be interesting to take a case against the bank for harming her career by refusing to give reference. But this will take a while.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Portsalon wrote: »

Daughter's current employer (no names, but one of the major Irish banks) is refusing to give her a reference on the basis that the company doesn't give references.

New employer - in the Irish public service - is refusing to confirm her appointment unless she gets one.

Firstly could it be true that one of the major Irish banks doesn't ever give references?

Secondly, if true, has anyone else encountered this problem and how did they get around it?

Thanks.

Yes, they will only give you a statement of employment. Along the lines of X worked from 2010 to 2019 and their position was X. Standard practice for them, no matter how long you worked there or how well you did you are coming out with the same piece of paper as everyone else.

A personal or character reference should be acceptable, if she's ever done any other work or voluntary work or maybe been a member of a club or committee maybe someone could give her a written reference or act as a referee. If she has a good relationship with any managers in the bank she can ask them to provide a 'personal' reference and see if they are willing, that way it's from them and not the bank itself.

Portsalon

Cooper Puny Bubble wrote: »

Yes, they will only give you a statement of employment. Along the lines of X worked from 2010 to 2019 and their position was X. Standard practice for them, no matter how long you worked there or how well you did you are coming out with the same piece of paper as everyone else.

A personal or character reference should be acceptable, if she's ever done any other work or voluntary work or maybe been a member of a club or committee maybe someone could give her a written reference or act as a referee. If she has a good relationship with any managers in the bank she can ask them to provide a 'personal' reference and see if they are willing, that way it's from them and not the bank itself.

She has excellent references from a previous employer and has only been with the bank for six months. Perhaps it's the State Body that has offered her a job that deserves the good kicking for being unreasonable?

Mrs OBumble

Portsalon wrote: »

. Perhaps it's the State Body that has offered her a job that deserves the good kicking for being unreasonable?

This.

It's likely that they will not give references any more. But HR people seem to be slow in recognizing the conflict.

ldy4mxonucwsq6

Portsalon wrote: »

She has excellent references from a previous employer and has only been with the bank for six months. Perhaps it's the State Body that has offered her a job that deserves the good kicking for being unreasonable?

The bank definitely won't give one and say its from them. The only way is for her manager to give it as a personal reference, they can't do it on behalf of the bank either.

The state body is ruling out a lot of new recruits if that's their stance, it's pretty standard that large companies won't put their name to a reference these days (to the detriment of us job hunters).

Has she asked her manager directly to sign it?

Tomw86

Cooper Puny Bubble wrote: »

The bank definitely won't give one and say its from them. The only way is for her manager to give it as a personal reference, they can't do it on behalf of the bank either.

The state body is ruling out a lot of new recruits if that's their stance, it's pretty standard that large companies won't put their name to a reference these days (to the detriment of us job hunters).

Has she asked her manager directly to sign it?

This - there's also no way a Minister or anyone will intervene in this and I can't see how they could.

They are giving a reference - there is no rules saying it has to be anything other than generic.

rock22

Most state bodies won't give a reference either so I find it interesting that they are so insisting.

It is unclear from your post whether the bank will give even a generic reference. If they will then I would just send that.

Portsalon

rock22 wrote: »

Most state bodies won't give a reference either so I find it interesting that they are so insisting.

It is unclear from your post whether the bank will give even a generic reference. If they will then I would just send that.

A Reference Form was sent to my daughter for completion by her manager/supervisor.

Her manager/supervisor has stated that she cannot complete it due to Bank policy - the generic reference you mention above is available.

On being advised of the situation, some jobsworth in the new employer's HR unit has advised her that the job offer is dependant on the reference form being completed.

In summary, she is being screwed by two large organisations' HR policies.

Tomw86

Portsalon wrote: »

A Reference Form was sent to my daughter for completion by her manager/supervisor.

Her manager/supervisor has stated that she cannot complete it due to Bank policy - the generic reference you mention above is available.

On being advised of the situation, some jobsworth in the new employer's HR unit has advised her that the job offer is dependant on the reference form being completed.

In summary, she is being screwed by two large organisations' HR policies.

Complete the form as best she can (all her details) and put it in an envelope with the generic reference and the number for a contact who can provide a more personal one over the phone. Their lose if they can't accept it.

I don't think any company I've worked for (none of them state bodies) would fill out such a form.

jim salter

This is a tick box exercise.

Can anyone fill in this form? (I have a suggestion but probably frowned upon)

jim salter

jim salter wrote: »

This is a tick box exercise.

Can anyone fill in this form? (I have a suggestion but probably frowned upon)

No, is the answer to your question, I have had to fill out this reference form for a former employee who applied for a job in the public service. It is quite detailed and specific to the business owner/manager. They also followed up with a phone call to ensure it was me who filled out the reference. I was taken aback by how detailed it was, this particular employee had missed quite a bit of time due to an illness she has had since birth, the state body, while not asking for details of the illness, did want to know precisely how much time had been missed in the previous 6 months.

Portsalon

Update: All is now sorted after a kind-hearted manager agreed to do the needful. Our daughter can now set sail on her new voyage (á la Thunberg, although not on a multi-millionaire's zero emissions yacht) early next month!

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

OMM 0000

That's good it was sorted.

Reading the thread however one thing kept jumping out at me:

HR are going to be replaced by machine learning.

Machine learning is very good at black and white decisions, e.g. we cannot process your application until form A is completed.

If you're going to throw away nuance and common sense, then you may as well make the HR role redundant and replace it with an algorithm.