Different views on marriage

LegacyUser

With my boyfriend almost 3 years, we're both 39 and currently trying for our first child.

I can't honestly fault him or the relationship, he's wonderful, committed, kind, generous....we have so much fun together and we're super happy.

However, as much as he fully intends to marry me, and I 100% believe he does, he believes it's just a piece of paper and not worth doing it unless you can afford it, as in, upfront, have all the money now. Same goes for getting engaged.

The thing is, we're doing good financially, we own our own home (no mortgage), we have no debt and we both have solid incomes. I have a small car loan, whereas he, true to form, saved up and bought his car outright.

His sister got married 2 years ago and the whole OTT extravaganza was beautiful, but cost almost 100k, similarly, all of his friends weddings we've been to have been on the extravagant side....I don't really care about it being particularly fancy or expensive, but he has it in his head that I must have a minimum 15k engagement ring and then a stupid expensive wedding. When I say that's nuts (my sisters wedding, my favourite wedding i've ever been too, cost under €10k) he thinks I'm just being nice, but I'm not...I really don't care.

He's the same in all aspects of life, puts himself under mad unnecessary pressure to earn what he feels is expected of him.

Anyway, I appreciate the urgency with age to go for the baby option first/now. However I would really like to get engaged or have some form of commitment from him as we enter that phase. The conversation has happened twice, and it just went around in circles, I said it to him the last time that his pragmatic and money focused approach to everything just kills all of the romance. But I never really bring it up either as I don't feel it's my place, he's kind of traditional in that regard, and so am I. It just ends up with him being all "Well, like, you know i'm in this 100% but do you realise how much pressure we would be under financially if we got engaged now? Obviously we're in this for life....bla bla bla"

It's not a deal-breaker, in the sense that I'd never ever be without him and I know he would never survive without me (lol). But it's doing my head in a bit.

Is there any kind of approach that can soften him up? We discussed it a few months ago, he said "realistically I can't see us getting engaged for another 12 months at least" I acted all calm and normal like it didn't phase me but tears started coming down my face so I had to explain my view and in that instance, he kind of seemed to get it, but nothing has been said since, except he met his friend for dinner last week and when I asked how he was, he said "He was asking when we are going to get married?". I laughed, as though it was a ridiculous question.....which i regretted later.

Anyway, I just wonder is there anything I can do to make him realise that committing to someone isn't about the cost of a ring or a wedding? Weirdly, that's why I want to do it and that's why he doesn't.

Even if I get no advice that was a lovely rant

shesty

15k engagement ring?Did he never hear of the rule that (if you were measuring these things) an engagement ring should cost one month's wages??(as I said...if you were thinking that way!).I couldn't wear a ring like that, I would be terrified of losing it.

Has he been to many weddings?

FishOnABike

You can marry for as little as the €200 notification fee in a registry office https://www2.hse.ie/services/births-deaths-and-marriages/how-to-get-married-in-ireland/how-to-get-married-in-ireland.html

Everything else is optional. The most important thing is your commitment to each other.

zapper55

I'd show him what you have written. Maybe take out the paragraph about the unnecessary pressure he puts on himself in case he takes it as criticism. But I think it's the only way to convince him.

pwurple

Well, to be fair he is cutting off his nose to spite his face here if you are trying for a baby. Men have shag all rights to their kids unless married, without legal agreements etc. Are you doing that instead?

Marriage is not romantic in my eyes, it is a pragmatic legal pack that people tack a party and romance onto.

Who is next of kin if you are heading into hospital bleeding heavily? Not married? Better phone your mum, he can wait at home.

Who is guardian of your child if not married? Not him.

Tax.. one of you stops working after having a baby, want to transfer tax credits? Oopsie, not married.

Inheritance, taxed if either of you pop the clogs.

jlm29

I know you say you're more bothered about the marriage than the wedding, but I'm not quite sure if you want to have a 10k wedding or a €200 wedding. I know you don't like to bring it up, but there are practical aspects, as pwurple said above, that should be considered. Would you consider eloping? I know it wouldn't be for everyone, but it is an option if commitment is more important to you than a big day out.

ILoveYourVibes

Why is he afraid to marry someone he is willing to make a child with?

Go for the registry office style thing. It can be done for less than 500.

If you don't make the registrar travel i think its about 200.

If you are not bothered with anything else there is no obligation to do it.

You can marry for as little as the €200 notification fee in a registry office https://www2.hse.ie/services/births-...n-ireland.html

Everything else is optional. The most important thing is your commitment to each other.

Ah someone got there first. Actually OP this is a nice way to do it. No stress etc. No fuss.

skallywag

nosignofengagement wrote: »

...the whole OTT extravaganza was beautiful, but cost almost 100k...

I have to wonder is this a typo OP? Unless they are seriously well off

SusanC10

pwurple wrote: »

Well, to be fair he is cutting off his nose to spite his face here if you are trying for a baby. Men have shag all rights to their kids unless married, without legal agreements etc. Are you doing that instead?

Marriage is not romantic in my eyes, it is a pragmatic legal pack that people tack a party and romance onto.

Who is next of kin if you are heading into hospital bleeding heavily? Not married? Better phone your mum, he can wait at home.

Who is guardian of your child if not married? Not him.

Tax.. one of you stops working after having a baby, want to transfer tax credits? Oopsie, not married.

Inheritance, taxed if either of you pop the clogs.

Agree with Pwurple above. List out all the practical, legal and financial benefits to marriage and see what he says.

Tell him you want the Marriage not the Party.

LegacyUser

Thanks all!

Yea, I get the elope idea....that wouldn't really gel for us in that we are both very close to our families, I would completely break my dads heart if that were to happen, but from my side, immediate family only would be grand. My mates would probably understand and just sulk a bit lol.

On his side, he has a group of 15+ friends since childhood, male and female. He's been best man 4 or so times, groomsman for the rest. They are all married and i'm pretty sure they are also encouraging him in that direction, but he is his own person!! He lost both his parents to illness in close succession when he was fairly young and those friends kept him on the level. There's no way he would do anything and not involve them, which i honestly 100% understand.

He's been to a lot of weddings and we've been to a good few together; on his side they are all very extravagant. On my side it's a mixed bag really. Most of his friends are from private-boarding school, they are all pretty successful and wealthy generally, so I think he feels like until we are in a place where we have that much cash lying around, it's not something we can consider.

He does have a much bigger income than me but invests a lot of it, his little sister set up a business a few years ago and I think he's constantly propping that up, she's not taking advantage or anything, like, he'd help her with her accounts and realise she needed X, Y, Z. I genuinely adore his brothers and sisters, they are so great, so i am not taking issue with that, but I do think there's a part of him that's afraid to spend money on something futile like a wedding when they might need something from him. I have a bit of money saved but it would go nowhere towards the type of wedding he feels is appropriate. Also, if we are lucky enough to get pregnant, I imagine that will dissipate slightly.

I think a problem also is that I am very passive, I just feel so lucky and happy to have him in my life that it feels kind of selfish to push the issue on this. It's genuinely the only thing in our relationship where I just deeply feel like he is making a conscious decision every day to not give me something that I want. I understand the why, it's just that there are so many available compromises (as per all of your replies) and he doesn't seem interested in entertaining them or looking at them. I feel so guilty for even sitting here typing this, but i feel so muted which i think is what hurts.

lol @ Shesty!! I laughed out loud at your reply!! When he mentioned the 15k ring I actually said I wanted one from Claire's Accessories too then as there wasn't a hope in hell I'd go around with 15k on my finger.

I didn't realise that about the next-of-kin. I think the guardianship rules have been changed if you co-habit, which we do.

I guess I just need to be grateful for the nice life we have together and keep hoping he starts to realise this.

Kidchameleon

Buy a cheap ring yourself and propose to him. Tell him you only want to marry in a registry office. If he refuses, then he doesnt really want to marry you

zapper55

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Buy a cheap ring yourself and propose to him. Tell him you only want to marry in a registry office. If he refuses, then he doesnt really want to marry you

He sounds like a very proud man, I think this would backfire spectacularly.

SirChenjin

I feel so guilty for even sitting here typing this, but i feel so muted which i think is what hurts

Not much to add to the good advice given but this line really stood out for me. You really need to let him know that what is happening now hurts. You regret laughing about the friend asking were you two getting married. You know that now. You were going against what you really feel, so maybe he is confused by that.

I suppose some questions arise for me, reading your posts - you don't have to answer. These are just the thoughts of an outsider looking at what you have written.
Does he really want to get married?
Does he put family and friends ahead of you and what you want?
Is he very competitive and wants the big show because others had it - keeping up with the Joneses as the old saying goes?

I think you need to be completely honest with him.
Sort out your own thoughts, which I think posting here has helped you to do, then sit down and tell him in plain words, the 15k engagement ring is not you, the huge expensive wedding is not you.

Thrash out between you what you both really want. Not something that will have him feeling under pressure about money (as he has mentioned) but equally importantly, not something that will have you feeling under pressure about extravagance you simply don't want.

All the best.

LegacyUser

SirChenjin wrote: »

I suppose some questions arise for me, reading your posts - you don't have to answer. These are just the thoughts of an outsider looking at what you have written.
Does he really want to get married?
Does he put family and friends ahead of you and what you want?
Is he very competitive and wants the big show because others had it - keeping up with the Joneses as the old saying goes?

I think you need to be completely honest with him.
Sort out your own thoughts, which I think posting here has helped you to do, then sit down and tell him in plain words, the 15k engagement ring is not you, the huge expensive wedding is not you.

All the best.

Thank you

Yep, I know he does want to get married eventually, it's just not time-sensitive for him at all.

I wouldn't say he puts family and friends ahead of me, no. I'd say he feels very secure with me and knows that I support his other relationships and won't put him in a position where i need to come first. Maybe he takes me for granted at times, and me him, it's the human condition but we would put each other first, always, when it matters.

I honestly don't think it's competitive. He's not trying to out-do anyone, he's just trying to achieve what he knows he is capable of. He's more of a deep talker when he has a few drinks in, he'll always say he feels pressure to be the best provider he can be.

I can kind of read his mind, he's straight forward

He feels we're hoping to have a child and he must be the most responsible, capable absolute best version of himself that he can be as we enter that phase. That involves earning as much money as he possibly can to ensure child has best start

He wants to ensure that I feel secure and supported

Alas for him security + support = Money
For me, security + support = commitment

In his eyes we're already committed to each other for life, we've bought a house together and we're hoping to have a child - so, a wedding is an expensive party that you do when and if you can afford it .

ah well

BookNerd

I had similar with the ring issue. I had explained I wouldn't be comfortable with an expensive ring but he felt it was important
So I then explained I've seen the movie blood diamond and an ethically not comfortable with a diamond ring and would prefer a synthetic stone.

We compromised on a moissanite ring for less than 1k

LegacyUser

When baby arrives organize the christening/naming ceremony/whatever works for you, invite your family and his mates and when thats done say O by the way this is also a wedding. So everyone is there, dressed nice but you don't spend a fortune on a wedding.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Whatever about the wedding/marriage, is there any budging at all on the engagement thing? It seems like the most straightforward compromise.

I agree that it's very much in his interest to be married to you with a baby hopefully on the way, but do you think if you took the angle that you'd really like to be engaged before pregnancy/birth and ye can have a long engagement while you get through the early childhood years he'd see it?

Also, ye're only together two years and you've bought a house and are trying for kids, I see you're framing it as security for him is money and for you is commitment but imo having a house and kid with someone you're not married to is at least as much of a commitment in moral and practical terms as marrying someone with whom you have neither of those things. I know you're not bothered about a big ring and fancy wedding, but what other aspects of the whole thing is it that you so strongly desire?

dellas1979

OP you are talking like this is his problem-llike he is in the wrong. He wont give you what you want. It's a problem for you to solve.

He has told you why he doesnt want to get married-there is nothing wrong with his reasons. I feel because you cant accept the truth, you are nit picking, doubting, and filling in gaps where there are none.

Not all believe in marriage (I dont)
Not all people want to get married

He has bought a house with you and wants to have children with you. Those are bigger committments than putting a ring on your finger!

If he wants to get married, he needs to do it when he is ready also.

Life isnt all about when you feel you are ready and pushing them.

SozBbz

dellas1979 wrote: »

OP you are talking like this is his problem-llike he is in the wrong. He wont give you what you want. It's a problem for you to solve.

He has told you why he doesnt want to get married-there is nothing wrong with his reasons. I feel because you cant accept the truth, you are nit picking, doubting, and filling in gaps where there are none.

Not all believe in marriage (I dont)
Not all people want to get married

He has bought a house with you and wants to have children with you. Those are bigger committments than putting a ring on your finger!

If he wants to get married, he needs to do it when he is ready also.

Life isnt all about when you feel you are ready and pushing them.

Did you even read the thread or even just the OPs post?

She spoke to him and he cited wanting to give her an expensive ring and a lavish wedding, which the OP doesn’t even want. He hasn’t mentioned anything about readiness or belief in the institution itself.

He’s made significant commitment to the OP and if what he’s said is true, then he’s only objecting to marriage for material reasons.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

dellas1979 wrote: »

OP you are talking like this is his problem-llike he is in the wrong. He wont give you what you want. It's a problem for you to solve.

He has told you why he doesnt want to get married-there is nothing wrong with his reasons. I feel because you cant accept the truth, you are nit picking, doubting, and filling in gaps where there are none.

Not all believe in marriage (I dont)
Not all people want to get married

He has bought a house with you and wants to have children with you. Those are bigger committments than putting a ring on your finger!

If he wants to get married, he needs to do it when he is ready also.

Life isnt all about when you feel you are ready and pushing them.

There's a difference between "I'm not fussed about/don't believe in marriage" and "I want to marry you but we can't do it until we can afford a big wedding up front", particularly if, as OP says, he feels that has to be the case because she really wants a big wedding when she specifically has communicated that she doesn't.

I'm not a big marriage advocate myself, and I can definitely empathise with him especially with the additional detail - he lost his parents fairly young, he supports siblings, he's trying for a child - it's understandable and indeed commendable that his focus is on finances and ability to provide. But if the genuine, only thing putting him off engagement and marriage is a financial burden which he's just needlessly creating because of inaccurate ideas and self-imposed standards then it'd be nice for both of them if he could shed those.

shesty

I understand what kind of guy he is a bit better now, because I know a few of that kind of background myself.

Look OP (and I speak as a parent here too).He is a fairly practical guy.He lost his parents young and he wants a baby.

Putting all your feelings about weddings aside, you need to sit down and discuss the points made in Pwurple's post with him, in the context of wanting a child.There is a lot of legal stuff and paperwork that goes with having babies and if marriage is going to be on the cards anyway, then present it like that, it is a practical thing to do now, before the baby.

You are not trying to trick him or persuade him here, but just give him something to think about and see can you reach a compromise soon enough on the type of wedding you want.

Sittingpretty

Couldn't you just the two of you get married in registry office. Don't tell anyone and then do the big wedding renewal of vows when you're both ready and he feels financially able to throw the party?

skallywag

There are folk who have no interest at all in marriage to be fair. I do not, nor does my other half.

That said if she asked me and it meant a lot to her I would do it.

splinter65

It’s so important legally for the parents of children to be married to each other.
It’s so advantageous financially to be legally married if one of you decided to stay at home to mind a baby.
It’s far less complicated for a surviving parent and children if they were married should the unthinkable happen and the other parent die young.
You can be married and have some flowers and nice clothes and all the dear friends and immediate family for a very nice meal and some music and wine for less then €3000.

qwerty13

I have genuinely read your posts properly, but I still really don’t understand why you can’t have a proper open and honest conversation with him about this.

You say that you feel not listened to, but it sounds like you’re taking a back seat about being honest about what you want. He’s not a mind reader. It sounds as though you are dropping heavy hints about what you want, but never actually saying what you want. And that he’s not picking up on your vague hints, and is proceeding with a vague plan that he thinks people ‘should’ do.

It’s a bit silly, on both of your parts. Neither one of you are communicating what you want or need, and are both operating to some expectation of how things ‘should’ be. You think he should romantically propose; he thinks he should provide for some Disney wedding. Why aren’t you talking?

You can hold out for a ‘surprise’ proposal until he’s saved enough money for the Disney wedding, or you can actually tell him what would make you happy, ie; get married sooner rather than later, without the bells and whistles.

It just sounds like both of you are caught up in different ways about how things ‘should’ happen re the wedding day, and you are not communicating with each other

Mr. Incognito

Hi there

I would question marrying a person who clearly does not listen to you.

Its your wedding and your choice. It should be between you two and you two alone.

When I see some of the stupidiy on here. 15K on a ring. 100K on a wedding? 100K? On what. A few acquaintances eating food you didnt cook getting smashed by the main course.

No thanks.

splinter65

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hi there

I would question marrying a person who clearly does not listen to you.

Its your wedding and your choice. It should be between you two and you two alone.

When I see some of the stupidiy on here. 15K on a ring. 100K on a wedding? 100K? On what. A few acquaintances eating food you didnt cook getting smashed by the main course.

No thanks.

Sadly young Irish people in particular are terribly confused right now about weddings and marriage and commitment in general, and are very easily drawn into a kind of a competition between all their peers.
Cast your eye over on the weddings forum here and on any of the Help! I’m getting married! Facebook pages to get a feel for what I mean.

dellas1979

SozBbz wrote: »

Did you even read the thread or even just the OPs post?

I did. Again, just because you dont agree with me, doesnt mean my points are not valid. I dont have a hive mind.

He is clearly saying he is not ready to get married, for what ever reasons. To him, they are valid. That's the nice answer.

Trying to "make" him ready for marriage is not going to work. The OPs posts have hints of "how do I get him to marry me?" It is something the OP wants to do. Does that mean he should have to share the same opinion? No. But it does mean it could cause trouble down the line if two people arent on the same page.

The not nice answer and elephant in the room that wont be acknowledged is that I would go so far to say that he doesnt want to get married, from his actions. It doesnt mean he doesnt want a commitment. What has "how many weddings has he gone to/are his friends married" type questions about? Like this is the measure or an indication that a person wants to get married.

Some people dont put value in marriage. Doesnt mean they dont value a commitment.

Trying for a baby is a waay bigger commitment than marriage..
A baby is a tie for life.
My old man and I got married for less than 1k..
10 years and 4 babies later happier than anyone I know who spend big bucks on their weddings.
Just focus on both of you and trying for a baby..everything else will call into place.
We bought our engagement ring a couple of months after the wedding too!!

splinter65

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Trying for a baby is a waay bigger commitment than marriage..
A baby is a tie for life.
My old man and I got married for less than 1k..
10 years and 4 babies later happier than anyone I know who spend big bucks on their weddings.
Just focus on both of you and trying for a baby..everything else will call into place.
We bought our engagement ring a couple of months after the wedding too!!

My mother never even had an engagement ring. Mine is lost. There were 17 including us at our wedding. We were married at 11 and left to go on honeymoon at 3. Still married 23 years later. Happy as pigs in ****.

SozBbz

dellas1979 wrote: »

I did. Again, just because you dont agree with me, doesnt mean my points are not valid. I dont have a hive mind.

He is clearly saying he is not ready to get married, for what ever reasons. To him, they are valid. That's the nice answer.

Trying to "make" him ready for marriage is not going to work. The OPs posts have hints of "how do I get him to marry me?" It is something the OP wants to do. Does that mean he should have to share the same opinion? No. But it does mean it could cause trouble down the line if two people arent on the same page.

The not nice answer and elephant in the room that wont be acknowledged is that I would go so far to say that he doesnt want to get married, from his actions. It doesnt mean he doesnt want a commitment. What has "how many weddings has he gone to/are his friends married" type questions about? Like this is the measure or an indication that a person wants to get married.

Some people dont put value in marriage. Doesnt mean they dont value a commitment.

Well I suggest you try again since you missed some key points.

The OP has stated what her OH said on the subject of marriage. Nothing at all there to support your post.

You have a view on marriage, and you’re trying to transpose your view onto someone you know of only on a forum. The OPs partner has cited only financial, not ideological objections.

You’re welcome to think whatever you like about marriage but you’re clearly blind to your bias here.