Irish beef Co Op opportunity

severeoversteer

instead of another thread talking about how bad beef is at the moment and how much the factories profit from small irish farmers,
can we talk about setting up a beef processing co operative with farmer shareholders???

is it an option to fundraise from a few thousand beef farmers to establish this?

I myself would pay in a few grand, if a proper board of management could be put together to get it off the ground and surely some grants for enterprise could be available.

if a market rate was paid for the beef sold to the co op and the farmer shareholders paid as much of a dividend from the profits as could be afforded

basically similar to the milk co op side of things only for beef instead.

there wont be anyone in our current beef industry willing to give us any more for our beef so why don't we take the bull by the horns and do it for ourselves??

farmer owned co operative produce would stand out on the supermarket shelves and be attractive in the markets that are the most lucrative.


constructive comments only please !

wrangler

severeoversteer wrote: »

instead of another thread talking about how bad beef is at the moment and how much the factories profit from small irish farmers,
can we talk about setting up a beef processing co operative with farmer shareholders???

is it an option to fundraise from a few thousand beef farmers to establish this?

I myself would pay in a few grand, if a proper board of management could be put together to get it off the ground and surely some grants for enterprise could be available.

if a market rate was paid for the beef sold to the co op and the farmer shareholders paid as much of a dividend from the profits as could be afforded

basically similar to the milk co op side of things only for beef instead.

there wont be anyone in our current beef industry willing to give us any more for our beef so why don't we take the bull by the horns and do it for ourselves??

farmer owned co operative produce would stand out on the supermarket shelves and be attractive in the markets that are the most lucrative.


constructive comments only please !

It failed before when there was real money being made in Beef processing.,
Beef plan researched the idea too so maybe somone knows why it wasn't a runner.
There used to be a group called Glenbarrow selling beef from laoise, wonder where they are now

kk.man

It's a non runner for loads of reasons

Here are a few

You have got to ruthless on price. If you fail to comply Larry controls the offal and he won't buy it off you. If you don't sell your 5th quarter you are finished before you start. As Pat Mc Donagh said the beef industry is controlled by too few.

Cavanjack

wrangler wrote: »

It failed before when there was real money being made in Beef processing.,
Beef plan researched the idea too so maybe somone knows why it wasn't a runner.
There used to be a group called Glenbarrow selling beef from laoise, wonder where they are now

Where did the American lad go that was going round with the beef plan claiming he was willing to buy/sell beef by the container load to China and pat a fiver a kg?
I though it fairly far fetched at the time. Maybe he is still about.

wrangler

kk.man wrote: »

It's a non runner for loads of reasons

Here are a few

You have got to ruthless on price. If you fail to comply Larry controls the offal and he won't buy it off you. If you don't sell your 5th quarter you are finished before you start. As Pat Mc Donagh said the beef industry is controlled by too few.

Agreed, just didn't want to be negative

severeoversteer

at the moment the irish farmer has no choice only send cattle to the big processors

a co op would be inundated with cattle even if they were paying 5 cent less as you would be more confident that you aren't being screwed.

if the co op was large enough from the get go it would hit larrys turnover hard, the 5th quarter will need to be routed for sale by the co op itself, you couldn't rely on selling it to larry.

the idea that larry is the only one with the market routes for the offal is bull****, the world has never been so small and easy for us to ship it to whoever will take it

the co op could poach senior management from existing beef plants in Europe to get in on the game with a sure footing

barnaman

Lads do ye not remember your history

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/campaign-for-the-imp-programme-25896553.html

"The IMP campaign was a great success, both in Wexford and throughout the 26 counties. In excess of £4m was collected from over 40,000 farmers when the campaign closed down in the New Year of 1969. Irish farmers had now arrived at 55% control of the country's beef kill."

The famous Cork Coop; took us 30 years to get back some money we put in.

kerry cow

cannt cost a fortune to build a kill line and freezer , then let bord bia sell it for us .
sure Larry's doubling his money , so there should be plenty in it for the co op and it's farmer supporters .
if the beet boys think they can build a beef factory , surely the beef boys can better it .
unless there's a co op factory , things will never change , could do the same at getting calves out to export .
we need a group to take memberships and put the right guys in place to get the calves away , therefore leaving less beef in this country .
we need to cut this bullsht of holding fr bull calves indefinitely on dairy farms .
we need to stop arguing amounts our selves as farmers and push to get rid of the dairy beef , either by the humane gun or export .
too many people in suits , coming up too many reasons to flood the country with calves .
get them away .
the dairy man will give them away for free instead of the possible proposal that are coming down the tracks , that you will have to keep them four 4 /5 weeks .

beef would benefit from export of live stock .
more approved boats .
more lorries
more lairages spaces
more proactive government .

are the ifa out in France now and drumming the dep of agri , marking sure our layover in France is adequate , and the board are booked , notto.like last year , looking for boats and housing in France , when half the herds were calved.

it suits the factories to have a flood of cattle , someone is pulling someone's tail .
i hope all is squeaky clean , but something smells .

kk.man

barnaman wrote: »

Lads do ye not remember your history

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/campaign-for-the-imp-programme-25896553.html

"The IMP campaign was a great success, both in Wexford and throughout the 26 counties. In excess of £4m was collected from over 40,000 farmers when the campaign closed down in the New Year of 1969. Irish farmers had now arrived at 55% control of the country's beef kill."

The famous Cork Coop; took us 30 years to get back some money we put in.

Also remember the Kerry Group had meat plants. They couldn't wait to off load them. I have long admired Kerry for their business acumen but they couldn't mustard it.

kerry cow

are you saying larry isnt making money and thers no profit in processing or are you saying theres alot more in processing milk , then the milk boys are been ripped off .

kk.man

It is said Larry paid 230m for a half share in Slaney. Slaneys latest published profits were 3.2m ish. That s 1.6 for Larry.
In lay man's terms you would need serious capital for that type of a purchase because no bank would lend you that on basis on those profits.

kk.man

kerry cow wrote: »

are you saying larry isnt making money and thers no profit in processing or are you saying theres alot more in processing milk , then the milk boys are been ripped off .

He is making serious profits but it's a numbers game and he has serious numbers.

Water John

In broader terms you're looking for strategies that helps to improve the price in the medium term. What you're proposing may be one of them.
So if some developed niche lines, rare breeds, organic etc. I think a quarter of Austria in organic.
See are there further live export options. We know Iran is interested but Govn't is afraid of US.
Reduce stocking and numbers.
Farm organisations stop collecting levies at factories. No doubt this has been a handicap in staying, at arms length, which is essential.
Need a Minister and Dept really on your side. Not the case, with a long time.
Less finished stock is one of the best ways to support price.

Whether a few Muslim nations would be interested in our supply of cattle, live or dead?

kerry cow

kk.man wrote:

It is said Larry paid 230m for a half share in Slaney. Slaneys latest published profits were 3.2m ish. That s 1.6 for Larry. In lay man's terms you would need serious capital for that type of a purchase because no bank would lend you that on basis on those profits.

so you are saying larry is making 800k after spending 115 millon.
that's like spending 11.5 millon and getting a return of 80k .

he ain't that stupid .

check it again

kk.man

kerry cow wrote: »

so you are saying larry is making 800k after spending 115 millon.
that's like spending 11.5 millon and getting a return of 80k .

he ain't that stupid .

check it again

No he is reputed to have paid 230m and profits were 3.2 m. Out of that 3.2 linden foods get 1.6 and he gets 1.6m. Yes mad I agree but now he has total control of the Irish kill. Slaney has capacity to kill 78 thousand cattle per annum and ICM control 40% of the sheep kill. It's all about control and he has plenty of spare cash for the exercise.

I said it before Bert Allen came out the best.

kk.man

kk.man wrote: »

No he is reputed to have paid 230m and profits were 3.2 m. Out of that 3.2 linden foods get 1.6 and he gets 1.6m. Yes mad I agree but now he has total control of the Irish kill. Slaney has capacity to kill 78 thousand cattle per annum and ICM control 40% of the sheep kill. It's all about control and he has plenty of spare cash for the exercise.

I said it before Bert Allen came out the best.

Meat plants were never cheap I remember them being sold in the 80s for north of 10m and could only process 1k cattle per week with no boning sections. 10m was alot cash in those years.
It's a long term game and these boys know the game inside out.

kerry cow

we need our minister to get off his hands and get our livestock out of this country , in large numbers .
we are a island and don't even own a cattle ferry and rely on private boat to get our trucks out to Europe .
government chop on .
stop the rot .
if you ask me someone's somewhere is look out for others best interest .
it's a cartel , in other sectors it's called a mafia and somewhere there is a god father pulling all the strings .
money talks a silent language .
we maybe surprised who has dirty paws .

ever play cludeo .

Dinzee Conlee

kerry cow wrote: »

we need our minister to get off his hands and get our livestock out of this country , in large numbers .
we are a island and don't even own a cattle ferry and rely on private boat to get our trucks out to Europe .
government chop on .
stop the rot .
if you ask me someone's somewhere is look out for others best interest .
it's a cartel , in other sectors it's called a mafia and somewhere there is a god father pulling all the strings .
money talks a silent language .
we maybe surprised who has dirty paws .

ever play cludeo .

I don’t know if live export is a good bet long term...

What then?

wrangler

kk.man wrote: »

No he is reputed to have paid 230m and profits were 3.2 m. Out of that 3.2 linden foods get 1.6 and he gets 1.6m. Yes mad I agree but now he has total control of the Irish kill. Slaney has capacity to kill 78 thousand cattle per annum and ICM control 40% of the sheep kill. It's all about control and he has plenty of spare cash for the exercise.

I said it before Bert Allen came out the best.

80000 cattle processed for a margin of €40/hd , so if slaney pays 10c/kg more they're in trouble,
As you said a numbers game

148multi

severeoversteer wrote: »

instead of another thread talking about how bad beef is at the moment and how much the factories profit from small irish farmers,
can we talk about setting up a beef processing co operative with farmer shareholders???

is it an option to fundraise from a few thousand beef farmers to establish this?

I myself would pay in a few grand, if a proper board of management could be put together to get it off the ground and surely some grants for enterprise could be available.

if a market rate was paid for the beef sold to the co op and the farmer shareholders paid as much of a dividend from the profits as could be afforded

basically similar to the milk co op side of things only for beef instead.

there wont be anyone in our current beef industry willing to give us any more for our beef so why don't we take the bull by the horns and do it for ourselves??

farmer owned co operative produce would stand out on the supermarket shelves and be attractive in the markets that are the most lucrative.


constructive comments only please !

Isn't there a group that puts a certain number of animals up for tender each week, processers bid for the animals, simple setup, could we have a group in each county. It wouldn't take a huge investment and wouldn't be contrary to competition authority as I understand.

wrangler

148multi wrote: »

Isn't there a group that puts a certain number of animals up for tender each week, processers bid for the animals, simple setup, could we have a group in each county. It wouldn't take a huge investment and wouldn't be contrary to competition authority as I understand.

Processors won't compete for producer groups at the moment, you just make do with the processor that you're with

I've suggested similar in the past (not under this name).

To succeed you'd need to poach key staff from existing processors. A top sales manager, production manager. Yes, that would be expensive, but that's the benefit of a Co-op, costs are spread.

The processing bit is the easy bit, it's the sales you need to concentrate on. China is going to be huge, especially for the 5th quarter.

There was a factory started in the last 10 years in West Meath (I think) where ex staff of other factories set up their own business. How are they getting on? On my phone at present, so cannot check.

Beef farmers will continue to be powerless unless they take a stake in the market.

And, as for it not being profitable... Beef farmers are either being gouged (processors are making Super Profits) or they are not, which means they are complaining/ protesting for nothing.

A farmers Co-Op would greatly reduce the power of the existing players in the market. There's a term for the power that's currently being exercised... but as you know, it's quite the litigious industry, so I'll leave it there.

kencoo

Its feasible if you knew the numbers from cradle to grave after the farmer sells. Can anyone shed some light?

1: how much in turnover in euro per kg does the factory produce?
2: how much is the costs per kg does the factory have to pay? I. E. Esb/staff/waste/transport /and the cattle themselves etc. Exclude infrastructure.
3: how much in turnover in euro per kg does the supermarket produce from meat?
4: how much is the cost per kg does a supermarket have to pay.

Ultimately its the margins which is the focus. Is there real money being made in the factory or is it just economies of scale?

kencoo

kencoo wrote: »

Ultimately its the margins which is the focus. Is there real money being made in the factory or is it just economies of scale?

It's both. As for scale, depends on how big your Co-op is - will farmers support each other.

Last time I checked Larry was one of the richest men in the country. Has more money than he could spend in dozens of lifetimes, yet wants more.

Mooooo

Cooperative structure may work better as vehicle to sell stock, would it circumvent that rule of having less than 15% of stock in a producers group of it near set up as a coop as it would be one entity selling not a group of people so to speak.
Heading for the processing side as well would not work when so much Is exported

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

It's both. As for scale, depends on how big your Co-op is - will farmers support each other.

Last time I checked Larry was one of the richest men in the country. Has more money than he could spend in dozens of lifetimes, yet wants more.

He's addicted to success/expansion, money probably means nothing to him only a means to measure success

wrangler

wrangler wrote: »

He's addicted to success/expansion, money probably means nothing to him only a means to measure success

Off topic, but contrast him to JP McManus. One will have statues built to him, the other will have people queuing to piss on his grave. Knowing the same man, he'll have a device instilled to collect same urine to sell into the dye industry. Has anyone ever bought him Dickens' A Christmas Carol :pac:

wrangler

Deleted User wrote: »

Off topic, but contrast him to JP McManus. One will have statues built to him, the other will have people queuing to piss on his grave. Knowing the same man, he'll have a device instilled to collect same urine to sell into the dye industry. Has anyone ever bought him Dickens' A Christmas Carol :pac:

There's a saying that if you keep doing the same thing as you made your money on for long enough you'll eventually lose it
But for the government bailing him out he'd have proved that theory.
That saying would pertain to beef farming too

_Brian

kencoo wrote: »

Its feasible if you knew the numbers from cradle to grave after the farmer sells. Can anyone shed some light?

1: how much in turnover in euro per kg does the factory produce?
2: how much is the costs per kg does the factory have to pay? I. E. Esb/staff/waste/transport /and the cattle themselves etc. Exclude infrastructure.
3: how much in turnover in euro per kg does the supermarket produce from meat?
4: how much is the cost per kg does a supermarket have to pay.

Ultimately its the margins which is the focus. Is there real money being made in the factory or is it just economies of scale?

Based on the figures earlier from kkman about Slaney it’s purely a numbers game.

Funnelling cattle through a supply coop sounds like a more achievable goal, but it would take massive farmer cooperation, lads supplying factories would need to commit to it, even when factories try and poach them

coolshannagh28

Deleted User wrote: »

Off topic, but contrast him to JP McManus. One will have statues built to him, the other will have people queuing to piss on his grave. Knowing the same man, he'll have a device instilled to collect same urine to sell into the dye industry. Has anyone ever bought him Dickens' A Christmas Carol :pac:

JP is putting up his own statues.

coolshannagh28

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

JP is putting up his own statues.

Is there no end to this man's foresight. Saving his many fans the trouble.

coolshannagh28

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there no end to this man's foresight. Saving his many fans the trouble.

Potato/potata

coolshannagh28

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Potato/potata

This thread is about beef farming. Tillage farming thread

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>

K.G.

Deleted User wrote: »

Off topic, but contrast him to JP McManus. One will have statues built to him, the other will have people queuing to piss on his grave. Knowing the same man, he'll have a device instilled to collect same urine to sell into the dye industry. Has anyone ever bought him Dickens' A Christmas Carol :pac:

Been reading up on imp meats past few days.gas thing is larry was welcomed by all the beef farmers at the time because he paid better prices and was seen as the saviour who turned the industry around.i myself remember the farmers celebrating when larry bought i think it was either ballieboro or kilashandra coop to herald his entry to the dairy business.

K.G.

K.G. wrote: »

Been reading up on imp meats past few days.gas thing is larry was welcomed by all the beef farmers at the time because he paid better prices and was seen as the saviour who turned the industry around.i myself remember the farmers celebrating when larry bought i think it was either ballieboro or kilashandra coop to herald his entry to the dairy business.

In fairness to him he paid farmers at the gate, and they didn't have to wait to be paid. That was a major competitive advantage. Although, pretty sure there was a discount for that convenience.

No doubting Larry is a good businessman. Probably not the world's greatest human though.

kerry cow

does larry donate to local communities and charities like jp .

jp is a hero in munster .

yosemitesam1

_Brian wrote: »

Based on the figures earlier from kkman about Slaney it’s purely a numbers game.

Funnelling cattle through a supply coop sounds like a more achievable goal, but it would take massive farmer cooperation, lads supplying factories would need to commit to it, even when factories try and poach them

Bar as a vehicle to negotiate prices with factories, I can't see how it could be made work. Even being used to sell cattle, it would be in danger of creating tiers in the market. There's only so much money to be dished out so can't see how it wouldn't end up with some farmers being more equal than others.

yosemitesam1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's only so much money to be dished out...

Isn't that the point though. That the primary producers aren't getting enough. While the processors are doing very well.

As above, either the processors are proportionally doing too well or the farmers are protesting without cause. If the former then there should be enough ambition among the grass roots farming community to create a Co-op. I must look up that West Meath processor.

The line from a poem, 'ye are many, they are few' comes to mind.

yosemitesam1

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't that the point though. That the primary producers aren't getting enough. While the processors are doing very well.

As above, either the processors are proportionally doing too well or the farmers are protesting without cause. If the former then there should be enough ambition among the grass roots farming community to create a Co-op. I must look up that West Meath processor.

The line from a poem, 'ye are many, they are few' comes to mind.

Well if the primary producer does well they'll always expand, they have to be made feel pain if they're to respond to the market.
Is there anything to suggest that the processor's are pulling an excessive amount? They've invested hundreds of millions in beef processing. If they're not able to pull a decent profit on that investment why the fcuk would they go to the bother of running factories for farmers? They're not charities and no doubt have other options to invest their money

yosemitesam1

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Well if the primary producer does well they'll always expand, they have to be made feel pain if they're to respond to the market.

You're making a serious mistake/assumption, that farmers are working in a fair environment.

I've just done some quick research, and the first take away is that those companies in Beef Processing like to keep their information hidden, more so than other companies.

Before Liffey Meats could make their accounts more obscure they posted info back in 2004 that's still available.

Turnover €99.4m
Gross Profit €89.1m
Pre tax profit €1.44m (after depreciation).

coolshannagh28

kerry cow wrote: »

does larry donate to local communities and charities like jp .

jp is a hero in munster .

But is he an Altruist ?

coolshannagh28

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

But is he an Altruist ?

If we're getting philosophical, is anyone?

coolshannagh28

Deleted User wrote: »

If we're getting philosophical, is anyone?

Bono definitely

coolshannagh28

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Bono definitely

Good one :pac: