Anti-Irish sentiment in England. Civil War? etc.

greenpilot

Hi,

Interesting article detailing the change of heart in the UK towards Irish, some living there for over 30 years and are now thinking of moving back.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/anti-irish-sentiment-in-britain-i-feel-like-i-am-back-in-the-1980s-1.3992131

I live in Roscommon and the amount of English living in and around the Ballaghaderreen area is incredible. I know quite a lot of them as I work in local retail and to say that they are keeping their heads down is an understatement. There is not a word said to them regarding Brexit or the issues the UK are causing.
Contrast this with the reception that the Irish in England are getting.

The UK is extremely Polarised at the moment and, to my surprise, a lot of folks from the UK who are living here are expecting a Civil War within the next year.

I have heard these comments from 4 different couples in the last month.

Interesting Times..

Not surprised by the Anti-Irish/Foreign sentiment. Look at the blame game directed at the EU/Ireland, and that filters down to those who believe in the Brexit unicorns. All their ills are the fault of Johnny Foreigner, not their own domestic policies. Just check out that idiot Ian Holloway blaming VAR on the EU; that’s the level your dealing with.

Charles Babbage

I hope this guy stays in Britain, he should feel right at home.

alchemist33

Some of them do want us to clean up their mess (they agreed a backstop, couldn't push it through, then want is to pretend they never agreed it), but from looking at some UK forums, most of them see us as blameless in the current situation.

James Brown

Johnson will be hitting out at everyone and anyone to both get his way and then explain as it falls apart around his ears. He's an ignorant man. On Varadkar, 'Why isn't he called Murphy like the rest of them?'.

briany

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Johnson will be hitting out at everyone and anyone to both get his way and then explain as it falls apart around his ears. He's an ignorant man. On Varadkar, 'Why isn't he called Murphy like the rest of them?'.

We cannot assume Boris Johnson is an ignorant man, though it's very easy to see how anyone would come to that conclusion.

I'd say Sun Tzu would have agreed with the principal that there's no real disadvantage in your opponents believing you to be stupid/ignorant as this lowers their guard. Look at how wonderfully it worked for Donald Trump.

James Brown

briany wrote: »

We cannot assume Boris Johnson is an ignorant man, though it's very easy to see how anyone would come to that conclusion.

I'd say Sun Tzu would have agreed with the principal that there's no real disadvantage in your opponents believing you to be stupid/ignorant as this lowers their guard. Look at how wonderfully it worked for Donald Trump.

I said ignorant not stupid. Our own Bertie use to play the fool too. The stutter, the acting the happy go lucky chap from down the road. Two nasty pieces of work.

ilkhanid

I think talk about Civil war is far-fetched, but I wouldn't totally rule violent incidents. One person has already died. Words can have serous consequences-as people always point out in Trump's case-and when the more demented of the Brexiteers are coming out with words like Collaborators and Traitors one couldn't rule out some of the hotheads taking those terms literally. If things go pear-shaped after a No-deal exit, some of them might start looking around for somebody to blame, and not just the Irish.

Harry Palmr

Civil war? get a grip! They'll be too busy fighting for food to have an ideological based conflict.

MadYaker

If there’s genuine food and medicine shortages and a deep prolonged recession there maybe civil unrest comparable to 2011 but I think talk of civil war is a bit much and to be honest, such talk probably does more harm than good. The brexiteers are an angry bunch at the best of times and when brexit doesn’t bring the unicorns they’ve been promised they’ll get even angrier. Best not to give people ideas with talk of civil war and the like.

Larbre34

There won't be a civil war in the UK, there'll be some grumbling and navel gazing and Scotland will depart and eventually the 6 counties as well and the little Englanders foolish enough to have had their futures decided by the Daily Express, Aaron Banks and Mark Francois will carry on shrieking and finger pointing and qouting Enoch Powell as the rest of the World pulls down the fader on their noise and carry on with our lives.

NIMAN

Civil war?

What is it, the 1800s?

Ace Attorney

Wouldnt say a civil war, but can imagine lots of protesting and possibly some clashes with groups of opposite views until brexit actually happens

briany

There'll be nothing close to civil war in the way it's traditionally defined, i.e. two formal armies, both of the country, who are vying for control of the country. Can't rule out skirmishes with the police or very heated arguments over Sunday lunch, though.

briany

Larbre34 wrote: »

There won't be a civil war in the UK, there'll be some grumbling and navel gazing and Scotland will depart and eventually the 6 counties as well and the little Englanders foolish enough to have had their futures decided by the Daily Express, Aaron Banks and Mark Francois will carry on shrieking and finger pointing and qouting Enoch Powell as the rest of the World pulls down the fader on their noise and carry on with our lives.

Brexit isn't the only goal of someone like Mark Francois. I mean it's certainly a very pertinent goal right now, but beyond that comes the goal of exporting the revolution, so to speak. If a no-deal Brexit occurs, and the relationship between the UK and the EU ices over, the tactic becomes widening the fault lines of the EU. And if you ignore people like Mark Francois, or people like Steve Bannon, you're giving them free rein to work with impunity. A fatal strategy.

Larbre34

briany wrote: »

Brexit isn't the only goal of someone like Mark Francois. I mean it's certainly a very pertinent goal right now, but beyond that comes the goal of exporting the revolution, so to speak. If a no-deal Brexit occurs, and the relationship between the UK and the EU ices over, the tactic becomes widening the fault lines of the EU. And if you ignore people like Mark Francois, or people like Steve Bannon, you're giving them free rein to work with impunity. A fatal strategy.

Fair enough, but you have to look at the relative influence and indeed the potential influence of such people. The world has awoken to a far-right threat, a bulwark is setting itself up whether to Trump or AfD or Orban or Balsonaro. Those bigger countries are to be concerned about, but I just don't see it in Britain. Brexit is far from achieved, far from decided.

Manach

I can only speak of the historical narrative. There has been centuries of casting the Irish as both the "Other", ie non-English as well as a potential backdoor to outside forces ( from Catholicism, to various powers hostile to state). It is the latter, in modern terms Ireland's adherence to the EU which I'd suppose irks some sections of the political establishment.

ThePanjandrum

ilkhanid wrote: »

I think talk about Civil war is far-fetched, but I wouldn't totally rule violent incidents. One person has already died.

Which person do you mean? The only one I can think of is the Brexiter who was killed by his neighbour and that was probably for different reasons.

Britain is fine, there's no more hatred here than anywhere else and a lot less than in most of Europe. My Portuguese neighbours want to stay here, the Polish driver at work wants to bring up his child here, the Irish girl I worked with was having panic attacks at the toughts of returning and my Mother-in-Law who was brought up near Galway loves the odd visit home but knows that she could never live there.

Britain is a tolerant place in general so why are you so anxious to make it sound different?

ThePanjandrum

A few years ago I went to an Irish historical meeting with my wife which featured a Welshman telling the old boys there how terribly they were treated by the English when they came over to work.

Their response was that the English were fine, it was the other Irish you had to look out for. If you came from the wrong county then there was no way you were going to be given a job.

[Deleted User]

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

it was the other Irish you had to look out for. If you came from the wrong county then there was no way you were going to be given a job.

Lol what a load of bollocks.

These Irish you speak of were the ones putting up “No blacks, no dogs, no Irish” signs up in their windows presumably?

Big_Evil

Ah hear. Its a bit of a stretch to say Civil War, but in saying that, I would put the UK at its closest to Civil War since the War of the Roses.


A lot of bad decisions and unfortunate events over a period of time need to happen for it to come to that, but its not at all beyond the bounds of possibility.

Nor would BREXIT be the reason for it, but rather, the complete stratification of society which has been happening for quite a long time now, and exacerbated by a hard BREXIT.


Scuffles and riots are possible once the BREXIT pinch starts to be felt by the population. How the authorities react to this is key.


For a civil disturbances to escalate to Civil War, the military are all important here. Should the UK government introduce Martial Law to maintain order, the situation then becomes weaponized. How the army reacts to this is crucial. Should the Army defect, or worse, split, then there are grounds for Civil War.


These events take time to boil over. Whatever the UK does by end of October will have a profound impact on the for decades. When coupled with a divided society, how profound remains to be seen.

fash

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Which person do you mean? The only one I can think of is the Brexiter who was killed by his neighbour and that was probably for different reasons

Jo Cox was a Brexiter? Plus you've clearly been fooled by the name : "Jo" was short for Joanne - not Joseph - an easy mistake to make.

flanna01

What a load of complete and utter nonsense....

The word trolling springs to mind....

Brexit was the will of the people, the British Government have to follow through with their instruction.

Did the voting population really understand what Brexit entailed - That's another question for another thread?

The suggestion that the UK is a hate filled, racist, anti-Irish nation, bordering on civil war is ridiculous and pathetic.

I know many Irish families living in the UK, happy as Larry, all nervous and uncertain as to what Brexit will bring to their doorsteps... Not an ounce of intolerence from the British hosts..

Can't believe the rubbish people post on line....

toleratethis

Batrachotox wrote: »

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

it was the other Irish you had to look out for. If you came from the wrong county then there was no way you were going to be given a job.

Lol what a load of bollocks.

Actually there is truth in that point. Local man here often told such stories. Spent most of his life working in the UK. Burying cables for the Post Office I believe (the harder the deadline the shallower the cables got buried under the footpaths). You'd have to be from the same area as the ganger, or related to someone already working for him or sling your hook. He has good Irish so often he'd pretend to have no English if posing as someones relation.

careless sherpa

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Which person do you mean? The only one I can think of is the Brexiter who was killed by his neighbour and that was probably for different reasons.

Britain is fine, there's no more hatred here than anywhere else and a lot less than in most of Europe. My Portuguese neighbours want to stay here, the Polish driver at work wants to bring up his child here, the Irish girl I worked with was having panic attacks at the toughts of returning and my Mother-in-Law who was brought up near Galway loves the odd visit home but knows that she could never live there.

Britain is a tolerant place in general so why are you so anxious to make it sound different?

... and that's when the cannibalism started

flanna01 wrote: »

Brexit was the will of the people, the British Government have to follow through with their instruction.

Actually, that's rubbish, they didn't. Can't believe the rubbish people post on line....

MadYaker

flanna01 wrote: »

What a load of complete and utter nonsense....

The word trolling springs to mind....

Brexit was the will of the people, the British Government have to follow through with their instruction.

Did the voting population really understand what Brexit entailed - That's another question for another thread?

The suggestion that the UK is a hate filled, racist, anti-Irish nation, bordering on civil war is ridiculous and pathetic.

I know many Irish families living in the UK, happy as Larry, all nervous and uncertain as to what Brexit will bring to their doorsteps... Not an ounce of intolerence from the British hosts..

Can't believe the rubbish people post on line....

Who’s supporting ukip and the brexit party so? They seem to have considerable support and there are no parties like them Ireland. For many UK voters brexit is all about getting foreigners out of the country.

partyguinness

I have been living in England for the past 10 years. For my sins, I am in a staunchly Brexit region.

Brexit voters can be classed into two general categories:

1. Male (and female), pale, stale retirees pining for the 1960s (and they vote in large numbers)

2. White working class tantrum who love to blame everyone else for their ****ty lives (see below), poorly educated and will believe any old rubbish

You have Johnny Foreigner who comes in and gets on with it. The (white) English will sit around bitching and moaning.

The Pakistanis like to joke that they are buying up the country from under their noses.

QEII in a very rare moment about 30 years was quoted as stating how insular the British people are in general. And it is true. For all the notions about being the centre of the world- they can barely look past their own nose.

As I read at the weekend, being completely ignorant of other cultures and the world at large is taken as a positive national trait over here.

They believe any old ****e as long as it is in a paper hence the sway tabloids have over politicians. The Irish have a healthy skepticism and distrust of authority- over here they believe anything you tell them if you dress it up to sound any bit official or important. Double barrelled name and plummy accents will also help.

Sure no wonder the Travelers make a killing over here. Easy pickings.

Another trait which I have noticed here is the willingness to blame others. They love nothing more than to bitch and moan about everyone else causing them problems and expecting someone else to wipe their ass (the EU has been the whipping boy for the last 40 years odd years).

There is no real 'get off your ass and sort it out yourself' attitude with the English and intellectually very lazy not stupid but lazy.

I can safely say that in any given social gathering I am more knowledgeable about UK history, current affairs, politics and geography than the natives. It's so effing well depressing that I now actively avoid social outings as the conversations are so bland and mind numbingly mundane it's untrue. A two hour conversation about the dog or little Sam's bed time routine.

Of course I am speaking generally based on my surroundings and not everyone is as above (don't get me started on the numerous individual instances of crass ignorance over the years). Even by English standards the area I work in is not noted for its academic or intellectual rigor.

Let's put it this way- the EDL and National Front have marches here a few times a year...

seamus

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Which person do you mean? The only one I can think of is the Brexiter who was killed by his neighbour and that was probably for different reasons.

Jo Cox.

The funny thing is that in an historical context we tend to view civil unrest and civil wars as things that kick off in a few days after a couple of heated arguments. Although we read about the build-up, we forget to immerse ourselves in it and to consider just how long these things actually take to kick off. It's all the little incidents in the years, months and weeks leading up to it. A parliamentary falling-out, someone gets killed, things go quiet for a while, protests, marches, etc.

It's only in retrospect that you realise that a civil war isn't a week of violence ending with the palace being stormed and the guillotines being rolled in. It's something that was going on for years.

Britain is fine, there's no more hatred here than anywhere else and a lot less than in most of Europe. My Portuguese neighbours want to stay here, the Polish driver at work wants to bring up his child here, the Irish girl I worked with was having panic attacks at the toughts of returning and my Mother-in-Law who was brought up near Galway loves the odd visit home but knows that she could never live there.

This is an example of survivorship bias - the people who are staying there like being there. Seems like an obvious relationship. The people who don't want to be there have left already.

In raw numbers, Irish passports issued to UK residents has more than doubled while British passports issued to NI residents has dropped. This would indicate that people are eager to give themselves the option of living somewhere that's not the UK.

flanna01

MadYaker wrote: »

Who’s supporting ukip and the brexit party so? They seem to have considerable support and there are no parties like them Ireland. For many UK voters brexit is all about getting foreigners out of the country.

Clap trap.... Utter clap trap!!

Brexit is to leave the EU, not a racial thing....

'' For many UK voters brexit is all about getting foreigners out of the country''

??????

I thought the UK voters voted to leave the EU no..????

We had the civil war scenario previously, are you now suggesting this is about to become a race war..??

Poor England... They have enough on their plate with the real Brexit issues at the moment, thanks for enlightening us to your interpretation of it... Not!

partyguinness

I believe when the dust settles in maybe 5-10 years you will see the break up of the UK.

You will have Tory England and when they look at it in the cold light of day they do not give a flying fcuk about Scotland, Wales or NI. In fact there do not give a crap about anything past Watford.

Their attitude is "Why the hell are we joined together in this forced marriage? We do not need the rest so to hell with Scotland et al. What is so good about the UK of GB and NI anyway?"