Tenant Won't Move Out

davidholden

Hi Folks - probalby off topic slightly from this thread but could really do with some advice / help .

Our tenant, unfortunately, wont move out despite having received the 176 days required notice and  a statutory declaration advising that we need the house for our own use.

Threshold (representing the tenant) are telling us that the notice we served was invalid as "specific contents  are required under the legislation" but the PRTB and solicitor are saying this is factually incorrect

All conditions of a valid notice were adhered to.



Do we have any hope or do we have to lodge a formal dispute with the PRTB ?
we've done everything ny the book so far but tenant looks to have the upper hand.

an incredible country



Thanks for reading this

Boards.ie: Mark

Hi there, I've moved your thread to Accommodation & Property where people will be better equipped to provide advice. Please let me know if you'd like the thread title changed. Thanks!

Mitzy

You will have to go to the RTB and lodge a formal dispute. Go straight for a Determination Order if all of your documents are correct. Threshold only act in the tenants interest so if the notice was correct along with the correct statutory declaration then you should be fine with the RTB. Might take a couple of months though for it all to be sorted.

davidholden

davidholden wrote: »

Hi Folks - probalby off topic slightly from this thread but could really do with some advice / help .

Our tenant, unfortunately, wont move out despite having received the 176 days required notice and  a statutory declaration advising that we need the house for our own use.

Threshold (representing the tenant) are telling us that the notice we served was invalid as "specific contents  are required under the legislation" but the PRTB and solicitor are saying this is factually incorrect

All conditions of a valid notice were adhered to.



Do we have any hope or do we have to lodge a formal dispute with the PRTB ?
we've done everything ny the book so far but tenant looks to have the upper hand.

an incredible country



Thanks for reading this

Have I read this right, the RTB have confirmed that the notice is proper and valid, but Threshold is telling the tenant it isn’t?

K.Flyer

Are the tenants still paying their rent?

Edit:
Have the Tenants / Threshold disputed the validity of the notice to the RTB under part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 to 2016 within 28 days of receiving the notice?
If they haven't then it can be put to them that they have accepted the notice as is, especially as RTB have already stated to you that the notice has been correctly presented.

handlemaster

Threshold do not care about the landlord. So would go with PRTB and solicitor . Sounds like a stalling tatic.

Portsalon

If it can be established that Threshold is providing false or misleading information/advice to clients, then its charity status should be revoked.

dont bother

jesus chr!st almighty.
this is exactly the type of sh!t that makes me hate this country.

why the fvck are "Threshold" even allowed to be a thing? its that type of thing that actually has us in a crisis in the first place.

Landlords shouldnt be this hard-done-by.

it's ridiculous that some tenant can essentially squat in the landlords property.

what would happen if you physically removed them? your paper-work is in order, the notice given and threshold lying, you could legally evict no?

steinbock123

What this country needs is someone like them boyos on that programme "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away''. High Court order, arrive at the door unannounced, and one hour to get your stuff and out you go.
But sure I might as well dream here as in bed !

Portsalon

steinbock123 wrote: »

What this country needs is someone like them boyos on that programme "Can't Pay, We'll Take It Away''. High Court order, arrive at the door unannounced, and one hour to get your stuff and out you go.
But sure I might as well dream here as in bed !

Yup. Seems to me that The High Court far prefers to award ludicrous amounts of compo to chancers and their wide-boy lawyers rather than to lift a finger to uphold the constitutional rights of property owners.

Subutai

K.Flyer wrote: »

Are the tenants still paying their rent?

Edit:
Have the Tenants / Threshold disputed the validity of the notice to the RTB under part 6 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 to 2016 within 28 days of receiving the notice?
If they haven't then it can be put to them that they have accepted the notice as is, especially as RTB have already stated to you that the notice has been correctly presented.

Tenants cannot accept an invalid notice. The 2004 Act sets out the requirements for a notice of termination in s 62. Any notice of termination that doesn't meet those requirements is invalid, regardless of the tenants failure to bring a dispute case to the RTB. As a notice of termination is required for termination under s 34, not having a valid notice means that you do not have the ability to terminate the tenancy on those grounds.

This is similar to other areas of law, such as employment law, where one cannot, for example, accept terms and conditions of employment which are in conflict with statutory rights as to holidays, pay, or working hours.


The RTB are not in a position to advise as to the validity of a notice. They are not your solicitors. Often landlords and tenants confuse the RTB saying "if you've done X then this should be valid" with "what you've done is valid". Even if they'd said the latter, the opinions of some clerical officer in the RTB hold no weight whatsoever.

dont bother wrote: »

what would happen if you physically removed them? your paper-work is in order, the notice given and threshold lying, you could legally evict no?

OP should absolutely not do this. What would happen is that the tenants would have an open and shut case for illegal eviction. Damages for this tend to be at the higher end of the scale as it is considered a most egregious beach of the law. The landlord could also be guilty of assault in the criminal sense and be civilly liable for assault/battery.

It does not matter that the landlord believes he has acted within the law. We have a system for determining this, which is the dispute resolution mechanism envisaged by the Oireachtas under the Residential Tenancies Acts and administered by the RTB. We have an enforcement mechanism for those decisions through the district courts.

The courts have been clear on this kind of thing for a long time, they don't appreciate people taking the law into their own hands, for "if parties were to resort to private violence in cases such as this, there would be an end to all law or order"

handlemaster

Subutai wrote: »

Tenants cannot accept an invalid notice. The 2004 Act sets out the requirements for a notice of termination in s 62. Any notice of termination that doesn't meet those requirements is invalid, regardless of the tenants failure to bring a dispute case to the RTB. As a notice of termination is required for termination under s 34, not having a valid notice means that you do not have the ability to terminate the tenancy on those grounds.

This is similar to other areas of law, such as employment law, where one cannot, for example, accept terms and conditions of employment which are in conflict with statutory rights as to holidays, pay, or working hours.


The RTB are not in a position to advise as to the validity of a notice. They are not your solicitors. Often landlords and tenants confuse the RTB saying "if you've done X then this should be valid" with "what you've done is valid". Even if they'd said the latter, the opinions of some clerical officer in the RTB hold no weight whatsoever.




OP should absolutely not do this. What would happen is that the tenants would have an open and shut case for illegal eviction. Damages for this tend to be at the higher end of the scale as it is considered a most egregious beach of the law. The landlord could also be guilty of assault in the criminal sense and be civilly liable for assault/battery.

It does not matter that the landlord believes he has acted within the law. We have a system for determining this, which is the dispute resolution mechanism envisaged by the Oireachtas under the Residential Tenancies Acts and administered by the RTB. We have an enforcement mechanism for those decisions through the district courts.

The courts have been clear on this kind of thing for a long time, they don't appreciate people taking the law into their own hands, for "if parties were to resort to private violence in cases such as this, there would be an end to all law or order"

RTB and the OP solicitor say the notice is valid. I would take their opinion over the opinion of an organisiations sole purpose is to support tenants no matter if they are in the wrong.

Subutai

handlemaster wrote: »

RTB and the OP solicitor say the notice is valid. I would take their opinion over the opinion of an organisiations sole purpose is to support tenants no matter if they are in the wrong.

Neither the opinion of the RTB, who are precluded from giving advice, nor OP's solicitor will matter a damn to him when the RTB award damages against him. Even if his solicitor is correct, unless OP goes through the statutory dispute resolution and enforcement process any eviction will be illegal.

L1011

TheShow wrote: »

when the house is empty, turf their stuff out and change the locks.

And get fined a huge amount for an illegal eviction

handlemaster

Subutai wrote: »

Neither the opinion of the RTB, who are precluded from giving advice, nor OP's solicitor will matter a damn to him when the RTB award damages against him. Even if his solicitor is correct, unless OP goes through the statutory dispute resolution and enforcement process any eviction will be illegal.

I dont think the OP said that she would evict the tenants like that. The paper work is in order , the the proceess it appears has been followed. If the tenant does move then Im sure the next step in the process will be followed.

Subutai

handlemaster wrote: »

I dont think the OP said that she would evict the tenants like that. The paper work is in order , the the proceess it appears has been followed. If the tenant does move then Im sure the next step in the process will be followed.

Which was precisely my point, the next step is the RTB dispute resolution process. My post was in the context of replying to users who either proposed that the notice was valid merely because it had not been challenged, and who asked what would happen if the landlord simply continued to eviction.

GGTrek

davidholden wrote: »

Hi Folks - probalby off topic slightly from this thread but could really do with some advice / help .

Our tenant, unfortunately, wont move out despite having received the 176 days required notice and a statutory declaration advising that we need the house for our own use.

Threshold (representing the tenant) are telling us that the notice we served was invalid as "specific contents are required under the legislation" but the PRTB and solicitor are saying this is factually incorrect

All conditions of a valid notice were adhered to.



Do we have any hope or do we have to lodge a formal dispute with the PRTB ?
we've done everything ny the book so far but tenant looks to have the upper hand.

an incredible country



Thanks for reading this

You seem to have served the notice before the RTA 2019 came to effect and this might have caused confusion in the dumb hotheads at Threshold. Discard totally from your mind whatever Threshold told the tenants, Threshold is not a statutory body and they are just a tenants advocacy group (nothing more) which will side with even the worst nightmare tenants. Their funding from public purse is an utter disgrace.



You will have to raise a dispute (not a mediation) at the RTB either by post (I would avoid it due to delays) or in their electronic portal (much faster). Very important: request damages in the dispute and quantify them with (for example) rent you are paying at the moment (you are perfectly entitled to recover your costs), this will make the overholding tenant think about the cost of overholding (so far they have probably avoided thinking about your side and only how save a few bucks on their side, the bottom line is everything). In 3 to 4 weeks you will get an hearing and in approximately 8-12 weeks a final determination order (what happens after that really depends if the tenant is a desperate social welfare one or not). If you have a working tenant, I might suggest you to have a direct word with him and explain to him approximately how much the overholding is going to cost him: much more than what he/she is thinking of saving.



I am not sure if RTB adjudications hearings are held in Waterford, but for sure they are held very frequently in Cork.


The termination notice format and content to consider is the pre-RTA 2019 (not the one currently in the RTB website), if the deadline of the termination notice has expired raise the dispute now and don't loose further time. If you would like further practical information PM me, I am almost out of the rigged game (one last vacant property left). The public forum has unfortunately become not fit for a serious discussion on how to deal practically about overholding issues.

garhjw

OP, as others have pointed out you will need to go to the RTB. I recommend you bring a solicitor and possibly a barrister to ensure fair treatment. Prepare for the long haul - even if RTB finds in your favour the tenants can appeal even if there are no grounds for an appeal. Also be prepared for A lot of sh*t and false accusations to be thrown at you during the process.

TheChizler

Is not all doom and gloom yet, just because they're are extreme cases out there doesn't mean this will be one. When were they due to leave OP? Did they give any more detail what they thought was wrong with the notice? Do you have a template you could show us that you followed?