Elective surgery

FIFA2004

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

_Brian

I’ve seen two instances of this.

One where an employee came to me regarding their situation and we agreed a time that suited them firstly but the staffing second, they used sick leave and got full pay.

A friend booked two weeks annual leave and said nothing until they were off and produced sick certs and so were entitled to their holidays back.

I would just go to your manager and explain you will be off for the procedure and then on certified sick leave for whatever time afterwards. I’d be saying this is the only date and you’ve been waiting ages for this appt and aren’t missing it. Sooner your manager knows he better as possibly staffing schedule will need addressing for the period.

skallywag

I agree with Brian above.

Most employers will certainly do everything to accommodate you in such a situation, and working together has always found a solution which everyone was happy with in the end, in my own experience anyway. I would advise you to be upfront with them, rather than going down the road of booking holidays and then producing a sick cert after.

antix80

I think people confuse elective surgery with things like cosmetic surgery which is also elective but is optional. Just in case your manager is ignorant I'd probably avoid using the term. Tell your employer you have an appointment that you can't reschedule and that there's a recovery period involved. You should take it as sick leave, as you won't be able to work. As for the day of the appointment itself.. if your employer insists on you taking it as a day's AL I wouldn't worry too much. Just take an extra sickie later in the year.

whomitconcerns

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

BrokenArrows

If its elective (required but not an emergency) then just tell your manager that you require surgery (dont say elective). Give them the date and the expected recovery time frame.

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Assuming the op's employer has a sick pay policy then there would be a contractual obligation for the employer to pay sick leave.

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

The op is sick, that's why he/she needs surgery.

skallywag

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

While you are correct that there is no obligation to pay sick leave, or perhaps even to put this situation into the 'sick leave' bracket, it is still the case that any decent employer is going to allow the employee to go on paid sick leave in such a case, if that is they have a paid sick leave policy.

At least this has been the case in any place where I have worked or managed.

yabadabado

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

"Sick leave" doesnt just mean you have an illness.Medical certs cover you for being unfit to attend work.

Having surgery is a one of those instances.

OP tell your employer you are having surgery and the dates you will be off.They dont need to know anymore than that.Get medical certs from GP to cover the period you are off.

cee_jay

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

Sick Leave is for when you are "unfit" for work - if someone is undergoing an operation, and is certified from a doctor they are unfit, then it would be classed as sick leave.
There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave, but a company would have a sick leave policy in place as to whether they pay it or not - this would stand regardless of the operation being planned or not.

banie01

There is no obligation on the employee to disclose the nature of their certified absence nor disclose that the procedure you are having is an elective.

Given the state of the waiting lists for treatment for public patients, it can often quite easily be a couple of years waiting for treatment for a non urgent intervention.
If I was in your position, I'd of course engage with my manager and disclose I have received a date for an op.
I would not disclose any further details of the nature of the procedure other than perhaps and expected return to work date.

This is not an employee being awkward, it is engaging with your manager to advise them of a period where you will be medically unfit to work.
The minutiae behind the absence are irrelevant really unless an accommodation needs to be made for you on your return to work.

whomitconcerns

Notwithstanding that I would allow the employee unreservedly take the time also, the op said am I entitled to sick pay? And can they refuse?

And the answers are still there is no automatic statutory entitlement to sick pay, and that yes they could say that the dates don't suit, depending on notice.

There's no denying it would be a pita of an employer to say this but the op asked straightforward questions so those are the factual answers.

Misguided1

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

There's no denying it would be a pita of an employer to say this but the op asked straightforward questions so those are the factual answers.

Just not complete and therefore possibly not helpful.

antix80

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

There's an argument that the procedure isn't medically necessary but the recovery time is!

I suppose something should be written into the company's sick leave policy if the company is worried sick leave would be abused.

tscul32

Ty

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

....what if it was plastic surgery on a burn, or the removal of a large birth mark, no medical requirement there either, both cosmetic issues. It would be difficult to find an appropriate place to draw the line.

Misguided1

tscul32 wrote: »

Ty


....what if it was plastic surgery on a burn, or the removal of a large birth mark, no medical requirement there either, both cosmetic issues. It would be difficult to find an appropriate place to draw the line.

Good point!

Dublinmuppet

I got boobs uplifted. Totally elective but was offered s sick cert to cover it. I didn’t take it as have loads of leave so used that instead. But I could have as the sick cert doesn’t have to say exactly what the problem is

banie01

Dublinmuppet wrote: »

But I could have as the sick cert doesn’t have to say exactly what the problem is

In the current data protection regime, a sick cert with anything other than an expected duration/certified period and either "acute medical condition" or "chronic medical condition" is as detailed as any cert issued for work will be.

The SW cert does require more detail but that's filled out by the GP and patient returns it to SW so work again have no access to the diagnosis unless it's disclosed to them.

skallywag

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

That is a good point, and something which I must say has not crossed my mind before.

If someone was to abuse an employer's offer of sick leave pay for something such as a non medically required boob-job, then I would be sacking this person at the earliest time possible.

To be fair though you would want to be really taking the piss to expect to receive sick leave pay while recovering from such a procedure, and someone of this mindset will more than likely have found themselves sacked beforehand anyway.

Dublinmuppet

skallywag wrote: »

That is a good point, and something which I must say has not crossed my mind before.

If someone was to abuse an employer's offer of sick leave pay for something such as a non medically required boob-job, then I would be sacking this person at the earliest time possible.

To be fair though you would want to be really taking the piss to expect to receive sick leave pay while recovering from such a procedure, and someone of this mindset will more than likely have found themselves sacked beforehand anyway.

Exactly and that’s why I didn’t abuse it. I didn’t need the surgery for medical reasons, I chose to have it for cosmetic reasons. I saved my money and my holidays to have it. I was sore and tired after it and I cleared it with my boss so I could have the holidays without it affecting work. But I was offered the sick cert as I wasn’t fit for work.

_Brian

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I would actually have a different thought on this. You are attending for a planned procedure. Sick pay is generally to cover you for situations where you through no paving or fault of your own are sick.

To answer your question, you are not entitled to sick pay from your company in any circumstances. There is no obligation on any company to pay sick leave.

Personally as your manager I would say annual leave or unpaid leave. Both of which would require advance approval. This is not a "sick leave" situation.

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

Illness benefit from SW if certification meets their requirements, yes, but unless the op’s contract states that his/her employer pays wages during absence due to illness, he/she has no entitlement to pay from their employer during sick leave.

Op, does your contract of employment state that you are paid during absences due to illness? There is no statutory requirement for your employer to do so, so if the contract doesn’t say they do, default is they do not.

Mrs OBumble

Book the day of the surgery as annual leave.

The next day, call your employer and tell them you are ill, and that the doctor says you need to be off work for two weeks.

Whether ot not your sick leave is paid depends on your contract. But most non-government employees in Ireland don't get paid.

whomitconcerns

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

It's not rubbish.. You have no entitlement to sick pay. It's 100% at your employer's discretion. If you are being pedantic about what I said then yes you can get money from the social welfare

antix80

whomitconcerns wrote: »

It's not rubbish.. You have no entitlement to sick pay. It's 100% at your employer's discretion.

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

Shelflife

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Book the day of the surgery as annual leave.

The next day, call your employer and tell them you are ill, and that the doctor says you need to be off work for two weeks.

Whether or not your sick leave is paid depends on your contract. But most non-government employees in Ireland don't get paid.

Dont do this, thats leaving your employer in the lurch and will piss them off.

Go to your employer, tell them that you are having surgery and that it will result in X number of days recovery, send in the certs as required, that way the employer will be able to plan for your absence.

If your employer normally pays sick pay then once you send in your certs you should get paid for the days that you are off.

antix80

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

Op has given no indication there is a sick leave payment policy, so default is that there is none. Op might confirm.

seamus

Convalescence is sick leave just like any other. Entitlement to sick pay is dependent on your employer, however you are entitled to claim illness benefit from the DSP.

It is illegal for your employer to let you use annual leave to cover convalescence.

skallywag

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

This is completely correct.

The exact details will also be either referenced or called out in detail in the employment contract, e.g. the amount of days that can be taken over a certain period may be limited, etc.

That said, it can quite often be the case that an employee assumes that sick pay is a given, when it is not. There is no obligation under Irish law to offer sick leave pay, such as one finds in several EU countries where the employer is legally bound to pay it. If it is not mentioned anywhere then as mentioned previously the default is that it is not paid. I myself would certainly have to think twice about whether I would want to work for a company who do not offer it.

C3PO

_Brian wrote: »

Rubbish to his.

If OP is certified as unfit for work due ru being medically incapacitated then they are entitled to sick pay.

Nonsense, there is no automatic right to sick pay other than that paid by SW! However, many employers will pay it voluntarily and mine certainly would in the circumstances outlined by the Op!

whomitconcerns

antix80 wrote: »

If an employer has a paid sick leave policy, and you're sick and take leave in line with that policy, it's not at the employer's discretion to pay you. They have an obligation.

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

skallywag

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

It is not.

If there is a policy in place to pay sick leave, then they must honour it.

Shelflife

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I'm out but for a final comment... It's still at their discretion.. But semantics to be honest

No its not at their discretion, if its part of your contract that you get paid sick pay , then you get paid sick pay. Its really that simple.

They cant decide well John has pneumonia so he gets paid but Mary only has the flu so she doesnt get paid .

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

It is illegal for your employer to let you use annual leave to cover convalescence.

What law, exactly, says that?



Sick leave cannot be booked. A sharp HR person will lose no time in telling you that, so trying to arrange it in advance is a waste of time. Employers should always have contingency plans in place to cover the unexpected absence of an employee - no one is iireplacable, and any of us may become unable to work at short notice.

fritzelly

Can I chime in and ask a similar question
Had a pre-op appt this week - put down as AL - no issue with that, from arriving at the hospital to leaving was less than an hour.
But the surgery is in 2 weeks (on a Wed) - I expected to take 2 days off sick, nurse said more likely I won't be back til the Monday and maybe later
This is not an emergency op but more a preventative op before it could become a more severe issue at some point in the future
The hospital said they'll issue the cert on the day of the operation for how long I need to recover (really prefer to just go back to work on Fri)
I don't wan't to take it as AL but it's a new job - only been there 2 months - at time of starting I had no idea when this op would take place. As far as I knew it could have been another year.

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

antix80

fritzelly wrote: »

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

You can take it as AL if your employer agrees. Companies with hr departments may not agree to it.

I assume you don't get sick pay. In which case, you'll be taking it as unpaid sick leave.

You won't get welfare, see:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/345_Illness-Benefit.aspx

fritzelly

antix80 wrote: »

You can take it as AL if your employer agrees. Companies with hr departments may not agree to it.

I assume you don't get sick pay. In which case, you'll be taking it as unpaid sick leave.

You won't get welfare, see:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/345_Illness-Benefit.aspx

No sick pay from the job, still in the 6 month probation period - made me look at the contract, still good to know for the future they do pay the full wage if something happens in the future (minus SW contributions)

Mrs OBumble

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What law, exactly, says that?
.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

Sick leave and annual leave

If you are ill during your annual leave and have a medical certificate for the days you were ill, these sick days will not be counted as annual leave days. Instead, you can use these days as annual leave at a later date. An employer cannot require you to take annual leave for a certified period of illness.

fritzelly

fritzelly wrote: »

Can I chime in and ask a similar question
Had a pre-op appt this week - put down as AL - no issue with that, from arriving at the hospital to leaving was less than an hour.
But the surgery is in 2 weeks (on a Wed) - I expected to take 2 days off sick, nurse said more likely I won't be back til the Monday and maybe later
This is not an emergency op but more a preventative op before it could become a more severe issue at some point in the future
The hospital said they'll issue the cert on the day of the operation for how long I need to recover (really prefer to just go back to work on Fri)
I don't wan't to take it as AL but it's a new job - only been there 2 months - at time of starting I had no idea when this op would take place. As far as I knew it could have been another year.

So my question is do I or should I take it as AL - don't wanna spend all my hols up. Can I claim welfare for those 3 days (or more if required)

You can't claim illness benefit for those 3 days, also be aware, if you are absent on Friday and Monday, your employer can also count Saturday and Sunday as sick days, some companies will have a max number of days they will allow on SL during probation before the cut ties with the employee.

fritzelly

Dav010 wrote: »

You can't claim illness benefit for those 3 days, also be aware, if you are absent on Friday and Monday, your employer can also count Saturday and Sunday as sick days, some companies will have a max number of days they will allow on SL during probation before the cut ties with the employee.

Wouldn't be worried about that - of the new starters one has had nearly 2 weeks off and another a week on sick. I'm only talking about a few days

seamus

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What law, exactly, says that?

The organisation of working time act, sections 1A & 2.

Time on certified sick leave is considered to be "working time" for the purposes of the act, meaning that you cannot lose annual leave on those days.

Certified sick leave is any leave where a doctor has professionally deemed you incapable of working due to physical or mental illness. This includes convalesence.

Sick leave cannot be booked.

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

skallywag

seamus wrote: »

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

I think that Bumble may be correct on this. I have also heard before that you cannot 'officially' reserve sick leave in advance. It gets honoured of course if there is a sick leave pay policy, but that said one still cannot 'reserve it' legally.

seamus

skallywag wrote: »

I think that Bumble may be correct on this. I have also heard before that you cannot 'officially' reserve sick leave in advance. It gets honoured of course if there is a sick leave pay policy, but that said one still cannot 'reserve it' legally.

There is no general entitlement to sick leave. Which is why strictly speaking it cannot be "reserved". But nevertheless there is no reason why it cannot be booked in advance.

It is taken as a given that an employer cannot require an employee to attend work when they are ill. Thus likewise where an employee notifies the employer that they are in future going to be ill from surgery or otherwise, the employer cannot disregard that and insist they come in.

They could for the purposes of time management ask the employee to book it in as annual leave, but they would be required to return the annual leave to the employee when a sick cert is provided.

TheRiverman

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

Following your procedure you will be unfit for work which is covered by a medical cert,but do you know what your employers sick leave policy is and was it detailed in your work contract when you signed it ?

_Brian

Have absolutely scheduled sick leave for an employee and it was green lighted by hr in a multinational too.

wonski

Did the same last year.

Elective surgery doesn't mean it is not illness. It is generally to improve quality of life or whatever and if you are unfit for work after it, your company will accept it.

Not an issue if your company offers sick pay benefit you will get it.

One eyed Jack

FIFA2004 wrote: »

Hi,
I've finally got a date for an elective surgery that I've been waiting years for. Obviously not an emergency but something that needs to be done sooner rather than later. Before I approach work about it I just wanted to know where I stand? I'll need two weeks off work after. Am I entitled to sick pay for this period or will I have to change my leave days to cover this time? And does it get treated as being sick, in that my employer can't refuse to let me off, or could they say no based on staffing levels?

Like I said, I haven't approached them yet but want to have an idea how it works first

The people who are in the best position to answer your queries in relation to your particular circumstances are your employers.

What’s your relationship with your employers like? The reason I ask is because I’m thinking of my own circumstances where similar circumstances were dealt with very differently by two different employers.

Basically I had a hip operation about 20 years ago and my employer at the time was very understanding about it. I couldn’t understand it then why I wasn’t allowed to come back to work after I’d had the operation done. My employer at the time simply said I was an insurance liability on the crutches and they weren’t prepared to take that risk. One of the conditions of being paid sick leave was that I first had to claim off social welfare and sign over any benefits to my employer, and then I would receive my full salary from my employer.

The second time was last year when I had to have a hip operation done again and this time I didn’t have to go near social welfare. My employer again knew well in advance the dates and times and the nature of the operation, the whole lot basically. I know other posters in the thread have suggested your employer doesn’t need to know this that and the other, but honestly I’d sooner rather that my employer would know they could trust me, and I can trust them. That’s why I asked what your relationship with your employer was like.

As it turned out we made arrangements for when I’d be paid sick leave, and because I had a load of holidays I hadn’t used up from the previous year, we arranged that I could use them up too if I wanted (had the operation done at the end of January, have to use up previous years holidays by March or they’re lost). This time my employer had no issues with me coming back to work early after I’d had the operation done, I went back to work on the crutches earlier than we had arranged so I didn’t need as much sick leave as I thought, and I didn’t bother using up the holidays either.

I’m not suggesting you have to follow my example or anything, what I’m saying is that if you have a good relationship with your employer, I’d recommend talking to them about your options and seeing what way you can come to a mutual arrangement that’s beneficial to both you, and your employers.

EDIT: The nature of my employment isn’t physically demanding, it’s more mentally demanding so being on crutches isn’t really an issue from the point of view of being fit for work or not.

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

What makes you think that? If I'm booked in for major abdominal surgery tomorrow, you can be fairly sure I'll be on sick leave for at least a month. Of course sick leave can be booked in advance. That doesn't however remove the employee's obligation to get a cert.

HR practitioners I have encountered.

Booking for surgery is meaningless: elective operations get cancelled because a sicker person came along all the time. This us why medical certs aren't written until after the operation.

What matters is that you have had something happen and that right now you are incapable of work.

If you are already not expected to be at work eg you have A/L booked, then your employer doesn't even need to see the medical cert.

The law says that your employer cannot force you to use AL to cover sickness. It does not say that you cannot choose to do it.

thesimpsons

Misguided1 wrote: »

Let's imagine the OP's elective surgery is breast enlargement or a face-lift. No medical requirement for the surgery.
What would people's views be then? Playing devils advocate......

Personally - I wouldn't expect the company to pay me to be out of the office in such a scenario.

what about in the case of boob reduction (causing back pain) or face lift as eye lids are drooping over eyes ? Is it not up to the GP/Hospital/consultant to determine if the person is unfit for work or not. If unfit for work, and the company has a policy to pay in the event of unfit for work due to sickness, then surely person is entitled to their sick pay. Where there is a sick pay policy, it isn't up to the employer to pick and choose which medical certs they deem valid in their opinion.