Will we ever break free from the insurance industry?

Ubbquittious

So many business ventures in this country are just not viable because of insurance costs. The state eggs this on by making insurance mandatory for all sorts of tradesmen and businesses. Even a casual trader with a market stall needs insurance to cover him for 6 odd million. The insurance industry has even installed itself as the unofficial gatekeeper of what type of car you are allowed to drive.

In order to become an insurance company you need loads of millions and a lengthy negotiation process with the minister in order to appear on the sacred list of approved insurers.

But in order to break free we will have to put the idea of free lotto wins for trips and falls behind us. Does it appear immoral to the average Irish person to say "tough luck" to someone who trips on a fair ground or gets scalded by a hot coffee? or is this simply not what the public wants?

It just seems absurd that your average farmer ploughing a field in donegal or someone in cork selling a bit of firewood needs to send a few thousand a year up to dublin or further afield in order to keep himself covered in case of some freak accident god forbid involving a child. If there is a child involved the whole thing becomes a pure tearjerker altogether and on the back of all the publicity it receives it is bound to result in a lotto jackpot style payout.

What about personal freak accident insurance people could get for their whole families? This could be brought in and businesses wouldn't have to worry about third party liability anymore. A

ILoveYourVibes

What would that look like though?

Brian201888

Ubbquittious wrote: »

So many business ventures in this country are just not viable because of insurance costs. The state eggs this on by making insurance mandatory for all sorts of tradesmen and businesses. Even a casual trader with a market stall needs insurance to cover him for 6 odd million. The insurance industry has even installed itself as the unofficial gatekeeper of what type of car you are allowed to drive.

In order to become an insurance company you need loads of millions and a lengthy negotiation process with the minister in order to appear on the sacred list of approved insurers.

But in order to break free we will have to put the idea of free lotto wins for trips and falls behind us. Does it appear immoral to the average Irish person to say "tough luck" to someone who trips on a fair ground or gets scalded by a hot coffee? or is this simply not what the public wants?

It just seems absurd that your average farmer ploughing a field in donegal or someone in cork selling a bit of firewood needs to send a few thousand a year up to dublin or further afield in order to keep himself covered in case of some freak accident god forbid involving a child. If there is a child involved the whole thing becomes a pure tearjerker altogether and on the back of all the publicity it receives it is bound to result in a lotto jackpot style payout.

What about personal freak accident insurance people could get for their whole families? This could be brought in and businesses wouldn't have to worry about third party liability anymore. A

Why on earth should someone need their own " freak accident insurance " if a company is negligent then they should absolutely pay the penalty

Ubbquittious

Brian201888 wrote: »

Why on earth should someone need their own " freak accident insurance " if a company is negligent then they should absolutely pay the penalty

It would massively reduce the cost of running a business and would stem the flow of companies shutting their doors over high insurance costs. I don't think a lot of the claims are caused by actual negligence, only that the company is the nearest / easiest target to land with the blame. Some fella tripping in a building isn't really the building's fault or the company but our society puts the company on the line for any mishaps that happen while that fella is in the building.

If it is up to the indvidual to worry about insuring against this they might decide to go for a cheap insurance that only covers genuine freak accidents resulting in a bad injury or an expensive one that gives a lotto jackpot and a lifetime VIP pass to Disneyland for stubbing one's toe

Overheal

Insurance is at least two as old as piracy right.

Doesn’t sound like that’s the problem but like you mention, the “approved” list etc. - that’s a technocracy/oligopoly.

So a 17 year old should be able to get insured in a high powered 4x4 and pay the same as someone who has twenty years accident free motoring in a one litre fiesta?

Sounds fair

fritzelly

It's simple
Judges need to start throwing out cases where people walk into a lamp post and try to sue the council
There should be a max limit for cases, where the damage is superficial or not in anyway impeding the rest of your life - like this
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/girl-who-injured-her-lower-lip-in-crche-13-years-ago-awarded-30000-37377165.html
A one millimeter scar that needs a magnifying glass to see and probably caused by the tot herself.

is_that_so

fritzelly wrote: »

It's simple
Judges need to start throwing out cases where people walk into a lamp post and try to sue the council
There should be a max limit for cases, where the damage is superficial or not in anyway impeding the rest of your life - like this
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/girl-who-injured-her-lower-lip-in-crche-13-years-ago-awarded-30000-37377165.html
A one millimeter scar that needs a magnifying glass to see and probably caused by the tot herself.

There is what is called a book of Quantum which determines the value of awards. You can find it on the PIAB website. One of the things planned is for the Judicial Council to "recalibrate" the levels.

Del2005

is_that_so wrote: »

There is what is called a book of Quantum which determines the value of awards. You can find it on the PIAB website. One of the things planned is for the Judicial Council to "recalibrate" the levels.

People go to the PIAB don't "get" enough money so get a solicitor and go to court and make loads. So we brought in a system to reduce costs, the PIAB, but it's just added a layer of costs to insurance as people still go to court to get a big payout.

We need to fundamentally reform our judicial system for both criminal and most other cases but the people responsible for reforming it are making too much from the current system so they won't. A system where people can have triple digit convictions or get 5 figure sums for minor incidents is the problem, not the industry that covers people against claims from others.

is_that_so

Del2005 wrote: »

People go to the PIAB don't "get" enough money so get a solicitor and go to court and make loads. So we brought in a system to reduce costs, the PIAB, but it's just added a layer of costs to insurance as people still go to court to get a big payout.

We need to fundamentally reform our judicial system for both criminal and most other cases but the people responsible for reforming it are making too much from the current system so they won't. A system where people can have triple digit convictions or get 5 figure sums for minor incidents is the problem, not the industry that covers people against claims from others.

As I said the awards are laid down. The trips to court, especially the HC, are because of the payout threshold. They did make some changes to PIAB a while back, to try to prevent people bypassing it but I don't know how effective that's been. The recalibration should work to a point but insurance companies also need to challenge cases a whole lot more.

fritzelly

is_that_so wrote: »

There is what is called a book of Quantum which determines the value of awards. You can find it on the PIAB website. One of the things planned is for the Judicial Council to "recalibrate" the levels.

Not worth the paper it's written on
It's fundamentally flawed anyway as it draws conclusions on how much was awarded in other cases of a similar nature.
The above case shows how ridiculous the payments are.
Insurance companies don't even bother contesting anymore, just pay out and move on - even sometimes at the defiance of the insurance holder

Should be looking further afield to see what people are being awarded
UK - 7000 euro or something for whiplash - that's it, no contesting the amount (lot of countries give you zero). Claiming whiplash is the biggest scam going.

Cannot remember the program but heard on the radio back about people being hounded by "solicitors" looking to act on their behalf for a claim - they never had any intention of making a claim.

is_that_so

fritzelly wrote: »

Not worth the paper it's written on
It's fundamentally flawed anyway as it draws conclusions on how much was awarded in other cases of a similar nature.
The above case shows how ridiculous the payments are.
Insurance companies don't even bother contesting anymore, just pay out and move on - even sometimes at the defiance of the insurance holder

Should be looking further afield to see what people are being awarded
UK - 7000 euro or something for whiplash - that's it, no contesting the amount (lot of countries give you zero). Claiming whiplash is the biggest scam going.

Cannot remember the program but heard on the radio back about people being hounded by "solicitors" looking to act on their behalf for a claim - they never had any intention of making a claim.

In your view maybe not but it is what they use as a reference. What is agreed is that it is set too high and UK levels are referred to quite often. Not sure when they are supposed to get to work but I've heard they are expected to do it within a year.

Lawyers are a different story and there doesn't seem to be anything happening there.

Water John

The New Zealand National Insurance system is one worth considering. Means you're covered for injury. Means car insurance isn't compulsory.

Squall Leonhart

Another factor is the absolutely outlandish legal fees that come with any case.

Saw some article today, can't find it now to link to, over 100K spent on legal fees by the state in a case taken against them by Angela Kerrins of Rehabcare.

I understand its not going to be bargain prices for trained legal people but in my opinion the fees charge - and paid - are extortionate. Companies cannot afford legal fees only to then end up a payout so are settling before court.

Tackle legal fees, tackle the problem, but I won't hold my breath.

Water John

With no fault insurance, you largely bypass the legal industry.

ILoveYourVibes

Aegir wrote: »

So a 17 year old should be able to get insured in a high powered 4x4 and pay the same as someone who has twenty years accident free motoring in a one litre fiesta?

Sounds fair

No but that is extreme on the other end of the spectrum.

StinkyMunkey

Ubbquittious wrote: »

So many business ventures in this country are just not viable because of insurance costs. The state eggs this on by making insurance mandatory for all sorts of tradesmen and businesses. Even a casual trader with a market stall needs insurance to cover him for 6 odd million. The insurance industry has even installed itself as the unofficial gatekeeper of what type of car you are allowed to drive.

In order to become an insurance company you need loads of millions and a lengthy negotiation process with the minister in order to appear on the sacred list of approved insurers.

But in order to break free we will have to put the idea of free lotto wins for trips and falls behind us. Does it appear immoral to the average Irish person to say "tough luck" to someone who trips on a fair ground or gets scalded by a hot coffee? or is this simply not what the public wants?

It just seems absurd that your average farmer ploughing a field in donegal or someone in cork selling a bit of firewood needs to send a few thousand a year up to dublin or further afield in order to keep himself covered in case of some freak accident god forbid involving a child. If there is a child involved the whole thing becomes a pure tearjerker altogether and on the back of all the publicity it receives it is bound to result in a lotto jackpot style payout.

What about personal freak accident insurance people could get for their whole families? This could be brought in and businesses wouldn't have to worry about third party liability anymore. A

Too much money to be made from both solicitors and claimants.

Insurance companies then screw the honest guy, it's a vicious cycle that will never end.

holyhead

Without root and branch reform of the legal system and how claims are dealt with insurance premiums will continue to close businesses.

Del2005

Water John wrote: »

The New Zealand National Insurance system is one worth considering. Means you're covered for injury. Means car insurance isn't compulsory.

The rego and fuel have 3rd party insurance built in. You can opt for higher cover if you want, but all NZ cars have to be insured to use the road.

Cookie_Monster

Del2005 wrote: »

The rego and fuel have 3rd party insurance built in. You can opt for higher cover if you want, but all NZ cars have to be insured to use the road.

Yeah. it's "hidden" in rego* and fuel, but even with that Rego is dirt cheap and fuel is cheaper than Irl. $80ish (45e) for most cars and my ute was $193 (110e) last week

Fully comp policies are also really cheap if you want to opt for one, mainly because the industry functions properly over here.

Having said that the insurers have found a way to fleece people by targeting earthquake and natural disaster rates and hiking them by 100's of % in some cases, or simply refusing to ensure entire regions of the country like Wellington.


* equiv to yearly motor tax