Double-decker brood boxing

Jennifer Eccles

Hello hive-mind.
Got my first hive in May.
They seemed to be doing very well - despite my best efforts ignorance! Lots of brood and pollen and honey.
So 6 weeks ago, I decided to divide/split it.
I couldn't find the queen ( still haven't :mad:) but there were brood at all stages so I was satisfied there was a queen somewhere in the brood box.
Read the books and manuals. Thought it was early enough in the season to split the hive and let the Q-less hive grow its own queen. (I wanted a queen preferably from my own colony as they're very docile and good-tempered.)
Two weeks after the split, the new split hive was way down in population and traffic and no brood present. No queen cells being developed.
I had placed the new split 2ft away from the donor hive, believing from my reading that while the current foragers would likely return to the original hive, emerging foragers would on the other hand soon emerge, who would stick with this new hive. (I didn't grass the entrance of this new hive; I did give this new hive access to a feeder for 7 days after the split, believing that should the foragers go back home, the rest of the hive would still have access to food.

So, I decided to reunite the two brood boxes, hoping that the strong original brood box containing a queen would strengthen the brood box that was going nowhere.

Six weeks later, I still haven't found the queen; nonetheless I have - in this order: two busy brood boxes with brood at all stages, honey and pollen stores
Q-excluder
two full supers
crown board
feeder (empty at the moment)
roof.

So, the hive is still growing. And what do I do?
I'd love a second hive going into the winter. Both brood boxes a well supplied with brood at all stages, pollen and honey so I believe I could do a split. But the good books tell me its too late for a split, certainly if I want a queenless brood box to grow their own queen.

Do I just leave it be and keep adding supers on top allowing them to expand?

This is their first year.... can I leave them all their honey and will they cluster in this "doubledecker" hive, hopefully sustaining themselves with all the honey they've collected?

Any and all suggestions welcome, as I've scoured the 5 books I have and can find nothing about eejits like me who find themselves with two brood boxes on top of one another....

Bee kind... I'm only a baby🐝keeper

Mellifera

I'm no expert but I think you should go in to winter with one brood box. If you have a 'double decker ' would that not be more difficult for them to keep warm in, have further to travel for food etc? It may stress the colony.
Seems a shame when it is so strong but it is too late to be trying to make a new queen. Wonder if you could buy a mated queen and create a nuc for overwintering?
Interested to see what the others say.

Apiarist

Jennifer Eccles wrote: »

... But the good books tell me its too late for a split, certainly if I want a queenless brood box to grow their own queen. ...

The books are correct, it is too late to do a split. The drones are being kicked out of colonies already, even if a new queen emerges in 2 weeks, she will have little chances to mate.

Jennifer Eccles wrote: »

... So, the hive is still growing. And what do I do? ...

Personally, I would keep both brood boxes over winter.

Right now, I would take off both supers and extract the honey from capped frames. Then check the stores in brood boxes, if the total amount of honey there is enough to last the winter, then you could put a single super with uncapped frames and extracted frames back on for a couple of weeks. If the amount of honey in the brood boxes is not enough to last the winter, do not put a super back, leave the hive for 2 weeks to collect honey into brood boxes; if after 2 weeks there is not enough food still, give them thick (2 part sugar:1 part water) syrup to store.

I understand that you want to have more than one colony, but the split should wait until the next year. At this point, your colony should be preparing for winter.

Jennifer Eccles

Thanks Victor.
Question: why would I remove the supers, as in, remove the stash of winter sustenance that they'll probably need to survive as a cluster till 2020, and then have to compensate by feeding? (I don't need their honey, certainly not in this first year of brooding/breeding/hiving)

Apiarist

Jennifer Eccles wrote: »

Thanks Victor.
Question: why would I remove the supers, as in, remove the stash of winter sustenance that they'll probably need to survive as a cluster till 2020, and then have to compensate by feeding? (I don't need their honey, certainly not in this first year of brooding/breeding/hiving)

Several reasons to remove supers:
1) Bees will not need to heat up the space in those supers
2) There is only a certain amount of honey bees can eat, the amount depends on the bee strain, their numbers over winter and the environment. Leaving more honey than than needed is a waste.
3) You can extract the honey now and keep nice empty drawn frames for the next year. Otherwise the honey may crystallize in frames when bees are not heating the hive as much.
4) If you keep the queen excluder on, the cluster may move into the supers leaving the queen to freeze to death in the brood box. If you remove the QE, the cluster will move up with the queen and the queen will use supers for brood and there will be a holy mess in March -- brood in supers and lots of stores in the brood box.

Jennifer Eccles

victor8600 wrote: »

Several reasons to remove supers:
1) Bees will not need to heat up the space in those supers
2) There is only a certain amount of honey bees can eat, the amount depends on the bee strain, their numbers over winter and the environment. Leaving more honey than than needed is a waste.
3) You can extract the honey now and keep nice empty drawn frames for the next year. Otherwise the honey may crystallize in frames when bees are not heating the hive as much.
4) If you keep the queen excluder on, the cluster may move into the supers leaving the queen to freeze to death in the brood box. If you remove the QE, the cluster will move up with the queen and the queen will use supers for brood and there will be a holy mess in March -- brood in supers and lots of stores in the brood box.

Thats a fabulous reply. I appreciate you going to the bother.
I had thought that the closer would be moving honey from the supers down into the brood chamber as the winter went on, but what you're saying is that they tend to only utilise the honey they've stored in the brood box? Ok. That being so, all your points make sense.
An afterthought though: I gather that you never open the hive during the winter cluster. But if one did, discovered they were low in stores, couldn't you then introduce one or two of the super frames, rather than introducing feed through the crown board?.
I keep picturing a wild hive, but of course if that were the case, the wild hive wouldn't have supers - it'd be all one big melange of brood, pollen and honey and that's why a bigger cluster cold survive. In a way, the size of our brood boxes determines and confines the size of the cluster that will survive - hopefully - over the winter.

Thanks again.

Apiarist

Jennifer Eccles wrote: »

I had thought that the closer would be moving honey from the supers down into the brood chamber as the winter went on, but what you're saying is that they tend to only utilise the honey they've stored in the brood box?...

AFAIK, In winter bees eat the honey mostly inside the cluster. The cluster moves around to consumer the honey. Bees do not bring honey from all over the hive to the cluster (unless they have to pick up the last scraps of honey).

I am not saying that bees are going to utilize the honey only in the brood box. The cluster will move to wherever the honey is closest and probably mostly up as the heat rises, so it is likely the cluster would prefer to be higher in the hive. If there are supers on top, then this is where the cluster may go.

Jennifer Eccles wrote: »

....I gather that you never open the hive during the winter cluster. But if one did, discovered they were low in stores, couldn't you then introduce one or two of the super frames, rather than introducing feed through the crown board?. ...

To discover the amount of stores, heft the hive in autumn and remember its weight (or measure the weight -- this is quite difficult though). Then compare with the weight of the hive in January. Also do the sound check -- sharp tap on the hive should produce a nice hum rising and falling, if you hear isolated buzzing that may mean that the cluster is in trouble.

Introducing frames of honey is possible, but it is probably too risky if the temperature is low. Normally, if feeding is needed, I would just lift the roof and slap a 2.5 KG fondant slab over the hole in the crown board. All business is done in 30 seconds. Contrary to that, if you open the hive and start changing frames, this will take several minutes and the hive will lose all the heat. Any bees that fall too far from the cluster will freeze.