Free Travel Pass usage logged?

zell12

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I contacted a bus company and they don't have a log of the amount of times a unique FTP was used. This data was requested under personal FoI wrt a unique FTP
The DEASP also don't have a log of same unless they are investigating a case (ie. fraud). Similar inquiry method.

I find this odd.
Surely the DEASP reimburse a bus/travel company for the cost of transporting a customer which brings me on to the query:
How much does the DEASP pay per journey? If a bus fare is E2, then does the DEASP pay a lesser discounted rate to the company - got the answer, but by how much is the discount?

compensation under the scheme is calculated on the basis of fares foregone at a reduced rate to take account of travel generated by the free travel scheme.
Cost of FTP use is €95m anually
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2019-05-22a.461

Gatling

You won't find any information on here about it ,
Expect another lock due to this having anything really to do with benefits enquiries

zell12

Surely an FTP user should be entitled to know how often/when they use a bus/train.
It's all electronic tapping these days.

Portsalon

zell12 wrote: »

Surely an FTP user should be entitled to know how often/when they use a bus/train.

Maybe buy a diary and keep a note of it yourself. The DEASP isn't your personal secretary.

zell12 wrote: »

It's all electronic tapping these days.

The so-called "electronic tapping" only records the use of a FTP not the details of the tinfoil hat wearing bearer of the said FTP.

splinter65

zell12 wrote: »

Surely an FTP user should be entitled to know how often/when they use a bus/train.
It's all electronic tapping these days.

There’s no electronic tapping when you use your FTP to travel from Thurles to Templemore on the bus.

zell12

I asked, got a response from Dept.:
Customer scans FTP on bus
The Integrated Ticketing System (operated by the NTA) records the time, date, route, type of transaction. It does not record the fare or journey destination.

The NTA send this data to DEASP. Data is retained for 13 months.
ITS data is shared upon request with Garda and Irish Rail under legislation.

So there is a log of you scanning your FTP 13 months ago!

Further, BÉ get an annual block grant to cover FTP use, private operators get paid every 6 months on basis of FTP usage survey during that 6 month period.

dartboardio

Can't imagine them keeping a record of Everytime you use it, nó.

Just like a medical card.

State just pays the GPS a set amount per year for the usage of medical cards and says that should cover it.

zell12

dartboardio wrote: »

Can't imagine them keeping a record of Everytime you use it, nó.
Just like a medical card.
State just pays the GPS a set amount per year for the usage of medical cards and says that should cover it.

Eh, yes they do, read the prior post
When you scan FTP, the ITS records the time, date, route, type of transaction

FishOnABike

zell12 wrote: »

Eh, yes they do, read the prior post
When you scan FTP, the ITS records the time, date, route, type of transaction

Doesn't indicate there that the ITS records the individual free travel pass details, only the type of transaction. There's nothing that indicates the transaction type contains any durect or indirect personally identifiable information such as the FTP number.

splinter65

splinter65 wrote: »

There’s no electronic tapping when you use your FTP to travel from Thurles to Templemore on the bus.

Nor on most buseireann busses.

splinter65

zell12 wrote: »

Eh, yes they do, read the prior post
When you scan FTP, the ITS records the time, date, route, type of transaction

There’s no “scanning” on our local buses down here in rural Tipp. You just show the bus driver your free travel pass/PSC.
The bus driver doesn’t have any equipment with which to “scan”.

Gatling

Still not related to state benefits.

It's the reason they brought in a smart PSC ,
It seems only certain services like Dublin bus ,luas and some rail is tracked ,

If you don't like the idea your free to pay for your own fares and not be tracked but if you use something like a leap card there usage is tracked too

muffler

zell12 wrote: »

So there is a log of you scanning your FTP 13 months ago!

Have you something to hide? :pac:

FishOnABike

zell12 wrote: »

I asked, got a response from Dept.:
Customer scans FTP on bus
The Integrated Ticketing System (operated by the NTA) records the time, date, route, type of transaction. It does not record the fare or journey destination.

The NTA send this data to DEASP. Data is retained for 13 months.
ITS data is shared upon request with Garda and Irish Rail under legislation.

So there is a log of you scanning your FTP 13 months ago!

Further, BÉ get an annual block grant to cover FTP use, private operators get paid every 6 months on basis of FTP usage survey during that 6 month period.

That's making something of an assumption. The use of a FTP is logged. There's nothing in the Dept.'s response to conclude that what is logged when a FTP is used includes personably identifiable data. Perhaps this needs further clarification to remove any doubt?

zell12

This is the response I got

We will now outline the current position for the processing and transferring of data, by the DEASP and the National Transport Authority (‘NTA’) as per their submission to the PAC.

- The Integrated Ticketing System (ITS) is a smart card reading system initially designed for LEAP card usage - which is compatible with the DEASP’s FTP (excluding paper passes).

- The FTP containing the electronic chip is readable by ITS enabled ticket machines, installed across the public transport network and on some private operator’s vehicles.

- DEASP sends an electronic file daily to the NTA, containing ITS numbers, to notify the NTA of new FT Passes issued and FTP revoked (where FT entitlement ceases).

- This ITS information is processed by the NTA, who distributes it electronically to the ITS enabled transport operators.

- It is this embedded ITS number that forms the basis of shared FT usage data received by DEASP.

- FTP usage data, received by DEASP, indicates that a FTP was used at a particular time and date on an ITS enabled vehicle.

- This data is non-identifying and does not provide journey duration or fare collected.

- No personal identifying data is shared by DEASP with the NTA or transport providers as part of the operation of the FT Scheme.

- Where the validity or otherwise of a customer's FT pass is sought from DEASP by a transport provider, this enquiry is dealt with under the statutory
provisions of section 261(2) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended.

- This arises following presentation of a FTP by a customer where the transport provider, or ticket inspector, has some doubt over the validity of the person's FT entitlement. In these cases, DEASP confirms whether the status of the person’s FT entitlement is valid or revoked.


Based on the information provided above, it is indicated that the
Integrated Ticketing System (‘ITS’) used by the NTA is capturing data from
the Public Services Card (‘PSC’), when used as a travel pass. However, the
data captured by the NTA is described as non-identifying data, decipherable
only by the DEASP.

It is also indicated that the NTA is passing minimal data to the DEASP in
respect of the travel card. For instance, the DEASP has stated above that
it does not receive any data relating to fares, locations or journey
durations. The DEASP have outlined that data is passed to the NTA
regularly, in the form of non-identifying data, which provides information
to the ITS in relation to the validation of new cards, and the revocation
of free travel passes.


The DEASP have outlined their legal basis for the processing of such
personal data, under Section 241, 247C, 262 and 263B of the Social Welfare
Consolidation Act 2005, and they have asserted that the provisions of such
processing is lawful under Section 38 of the Data Protection Act 2018.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2019/2019-12-31_correspondence-john-mckeon-secretary-general-department-of-employment-affairs-and-social-protection-32r002627-pac_en.pdf
https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2019/2019-12-31_correspondence-john-mckeon-secretary-general-department-of-employment-affairs-and-social-protection-32r002603-pac_en.pdf

dartboardio

JJ Kavanagh don't scan those free travel passes either, they only look at them

So no, there's no exactly accurate way of logging the use.

Unfortunately they aren't that organized :V