Mercedes A250e and B250e PHEV's - 2020 model

KCross

I think this is the start of the PHEV push

https://insideevs.com/news/357234/mercedes-benz-a250e-phev-15-kwh-battery/

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/mercedes/a-class/107671/new-mercedes-a-250-e-and-b-250-e-plug-in-hybrids-revealed


Snippets
Battery: 15.6kWh
EV Motor: 75kW (as a ref the original Leaf is 80kW)
Total power: 215bhp and 450Nm of torque.
Petrol: 1.3L
WLTP: 60km+. <-- Thats going to suit alot of people.
0–62mph: <7secs. <-- Thats not bad at all.
DC Charging: 22kW. <-- That will cause a stir with 22kW being pulled from an Ionity charger!

"By the end of 2019, Mercedes-Benz wants to have more than ten plug-in hybrids in the range."

drumm23

So what will the full range be - the second article says the fuel tank is 35 litres .... seems quite small ... but might get 350 miles?

It looks good ... but it makes it hard to pull the trigger on an EV today ... I've looked at everything from the 42.2kw i3 to a 2016 Tesla S to an i8 ... but you're worried about obsolescence biting you in the rear!!

KCross

I dont know the full range. The engine is quite small so it should have decent efficiency. I'd take a guess at 5-5.5L/100km @ 120km/h so should do 350 miles alright.

Mike9832

Fantastic specs

Battery size double of what's out now in that price range, as is that 75kW motor

How much will they be here starting at €37,000?

Given a choice of those specs or a Leaf62 for similar money, i'd take on of those, at 22kW it will probably charge quikcer too :pac:

60km range should be easily achievable, I would only ever use petrol on road trips

With a 15kWh pack and the 75kW/100bhp motor means decent acceleration in EV mode and really good acceleration in hybrid mode.

September1

drumm23 wrote: »

So what will the full range be - the second article says the fuel tank is 35 litres .... seems quite small ... but might get 350 miles?

All PHEVs now must have small tanks to reduce measured emissions. This is new normal.

KCross

September1 wrote: »

All PHEVs now must have small tanks to reduce measured emissions. This is new normal.

How does the size of the tank affect emissions measurements?

I would have thought the smaller petrol tank was just simply a function of space being needed to accommodate the battery.

galwaytt

September1 wrote: »

All PHEVs now must have small tanks to reduce measured emissions. This is new normal.

All vehicles, including say, the Skoda Octavia, have small tanks...to cut weight. A larger tank, even with more juice in it may by dint of extra kg's it's hauling around, give it a different emissions rating............

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

How does the size of the tank affect emissions measurements?

I would have thought the smaller petrol tank was just simply a function of space being needed to accommodate the battery.

Quote...

Roll-out of the WLTP signifies a major change for plug-in hybrid vehicles, which have both an electric drive and a combustion engine and can be externally recharged. These vehicles complete the test several times. They start up with a full battery. The cycle is repeated until the battery is empty. The combustion engine operates for a longer time each cycle. Emissions are measured with each cycle. This is followed by a measurement with an empty battery in which the drive energy originates solely from the combustion engine and regenerative braking. This multi-stage measurement can not only be used to determine fuel consumption and CO2 emissions more precisely, but the electrical range and total range as well. The CO2 value to be determined is then calculated as the ratio of the electrical range to the total range. At the same time, a so-called “utility factor” (UF) is introduced.

The UF represents the proportion of vehicle distance traveled electrically. In the case of pure electric vehicles, a UF of 100% applies. In the case of traditional internal combustion engines, the UF is 0%. In the case of plug-in hybrid vehicles, the UF increases with their electrical range. Lawmakers can use the UF to evaluate a vehicle’s ability to drive without emissions. The higher the electrical range, the lower the CO2 emissions. This is quite close to real-life conditions since the driver of a plug-in hybrid will have to refuel less often when he or she has sufficient current available, e.g. to drive typical commutes purely electrically. In practice, the actual consumption behavior of a car with plug-in hybrid drive will vary widely from one user to another. In the case of long-distance trips, the electrical distance traveled is negligible and the consumption will be on a par with the traditional combustion engine. On the other hand, many short-distance trips and commutes can be covered almost entirely electrically, with actual fuel consumption close to 0 l/100 km.

Source: https://www.vda.de/en/topics/environment-and-climate/Global-WLTP-roll-out-for-more-realistic-results-in-fuel-consumption/WLTP-How-are-plug-in-hybrids-and-electric-cars-measured.html

Gumbo

KCross wrote: »

How does the size of the tank affect emissions measurements?

I would have thought the smaller petrol tank was just simply a function of space being needed to accommodate the battery.

The same way the i3 Rex fuel tank is electronically limited in the states. The physical capacity is there but you cannot access to reduce the distance travelled using fossil fuel relative to the battery I think.

September1

KCross wrote: »

How does the size of the tank affect emissions measurements?

I would have thought the smaller petrol tank was just simply a function of space being needed to accommodate the battery.

Pure electric range is divided by pure ICE range and this ratio is applied to pure ICE emissions. Reducing size of fuel rank reduced pure ICE range and improves WLTP emissions.

kanuseeme

Mercedes claims that all three PHEVs can be charged from 10 to 100 percent capacity in one hour and 45 minutes when plugged into a 7.4kW AC Wallbox. When using a commercially available DC fast-charger, the system can be charged from 10 to 80 percent in around 25 minutes.

Why would it be limited to just 22 kw? Its nice to get a rapid charge but you think they would speed things up a little bit 10 or 15 minutes would be just enough time for a spray and to get a cuppa and on your way again.

KCross

kanuseeme wrote: »

Mercedes claims that all three PHEVs can be charged from 10 to 100 percent capacity in one hour and 45 minutes when plugged into a 7.4kW AC Wallbox. When using a commercially available DC fast-charger, the system can be charged from 10 to 80 percent in around 25 minutes.

Why would it be limited to just 22 kw? Its nice to get a rapid charge but you think they would speed things up a little bit 10 or 15 minutes would be just enough time for a spray and to get a cuppa and on your way again.

Charge speed is directly correlated to battery size.
15kWh battery is small hence lower charge speed.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Charge speed is directly correlated to battery size.

Not in practice. Some pure EVs currently for sale can only charge at 1C (Leaf), some others can charge at 3C (Ioniq) or even 3.3C (Tesla Model 3 Long Range)

At 3C a 15kWh battery is being charged at 45kW, which should have been possible with decent battery cooling, but maybe these Mercedes PHEV do not have that...

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Not in practice. Some pure EVs currently for sale can only charge at 1C (Leaf), some others can charge at 3C (Ioniq) or even 3.3C (Tesla Model 3 Long Range)

At 3C a 15kWh battery is being charged at 45kW, which should have been possible with decent battery cooling, but maybe these Mercedes PHEV do not have that...

Its a liquid cooled pack, no expense spared

Reason for low charge rate is cycle life in most cases

A 50kWh pack with 500 cycles is good for 150k km

A 15kWh pack with 500 cycles only good for 40k km or so, which obviously isn't good enough

Those phev cells will have much higher cycle life cells, hence lower charge rate than BEV

They usually have huge buffers too, out of that 15kWh, 12 will be useable i would say

unkel

Yeah there are more cycles on PHEV batteries. Or at least there should be

I guess there is (or there should be) also a higher minimum SOC than typical on a BEV. Keep lithium between 25% and 75% and it will last many, many decades.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Yeah there are more cycles on PHEV batteries. Or at least there should be

I guess there is (or there should be) also a higher minimum SOC than typical on a BEV. Keep lithium between 25% and 75% and it will last many, many decades.

Which is what will happen here

Degradation will not be a factor

Buffer is around 1/3 on them

They'll have more range than Leaf24 in 10 years