Conflicted about a course of action

LegacyUser

Hi all,

I'm typing this partly to resolve these isues for myself (I want to read this back to myself to see if I've gone mad) but I guess it would help to have a second opinion if I do decide to post this. I'm in my early 30s and currently living abroad. I'm basically working online - I'm developing a small business idea and I'm also doing some online teaching. It's all fairly mundane and my income is pretty low but I survive. This is in part, due to the fact that I'm spending quite a bit of my time not doing paid work, but developing a completely different kind of project, which I hope will form the basis of a PhD research proposal.

Firstly, I should preface what I'm about to say with a little background: there's a fairly rare inherited (and degenerative) disease in my family. I have a sibling that's been diagnosed with this disease and their symptoms and quality of life are deteriorating. I've quietly taken an interest in the research output and clinical trials around the disease as I have a background in biological research, with post-graduate qualifications and lab experience; I also have experience working with disease models so it's reasonably straightforward for me to understand the research.

I have now spent probably the guts of two years (on and off) reading the literature and pouring over the data on this and I have a good working knowledge of what's been attempted and published. It's at the point where I've got some ideas of my own, which I now think are worth testing. The disease in question has no approved treatments at present, and whilst there are early stage clinical trials, I'm not optimistic about their chances of success.

So, about a year ago I decided to move abroad. I picked a city, in part due to the presence of a research group there that have specialised in investigating this disease. They don't seem to have published much in the last few years but they do have experience with some of the techniques that I think could be useful in exploring some of the questions and experiments I'm designing. I haven't approached the head of the group (PI) yet and whilst I believe there's real merit to my ideas and their potential to be developed into a possible therapy, I can't help but be apprehensive about all of this.

Do I lay out everything to him including my family's history with the disease in question? Do I open with that when I first contact him and how might that colour his opinion of my analysis? I'll have a document (a literature review, independent analysis of other data-sets, and my proposal) and I'm planning on putting together a presentation too. My family don't know what I'm doing. I've not told anyone of my plans. My family (parents etc) are involved in fundraising for research together with some of the charities set up by other families with the disease. In fact, one of those charities has in the past funded the very research group I'm planning to join. So I'm reluctant about telling anyone about what I'm planning to do - I know what research is like and that things can go south fairly quickly and easily and there's no guarantees of success.

My initial plan is to design a series of fairly straightforward experiments, which should yield an answer as to whether I'm on to something or not; conduct the experiments myself, and present the data. If all goes well, this could be used as the basis for a longer term project (a PhD) with animal models etc. The latter would obviously require external funding but would stand a better chance of success with some solid experimental data behind it. This will basically be my initial sales pitch to this lab.

So, am I mad? Should I divulge everything to the PI of this lab, and if so, when? I also know that by pursuing this I'm forgoing a few more years of not doing something else - I could get a steady job in pharma or pursue teaching fulltime and earn probably double or treble what I'm getting now - so opportunity cost and all that. The thing is, I have this burning compulsion that I might be on to something and I that I'll seriously regret it if I don't at least try.

In general, what do you think? And specifically, how do you think I should approach the questions above?

LegacyUser

Hi OP
I think it's great you are doing what you are doing while you are still young and have no financial responsibilities such as children and mortgage.
Absolutely pursue this idea first and try to make it work. If it doesn't work out, well then you know you tried, and then it will be easier for you to settle down in a steady-income pharma job.

However, the research community is wide and and in my opinion it is not sensible to be keeping "secrets" like this. Your research will only get funding if you discuss the idea with more experienced, more knowledgeable members of the research community. So I absolutely feel you should discuss this with your potential new research supervisor.

However, I feel there is no need to mention this condition is in your family. At least, not in your first meeting with the supervisor. You are a professional, passionate about a certain topic. No need to disclose information that is so personal so early on. It would almost make them doubt how level headed you'll be able to stay should it go south and not produce the desired results.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Fair play for working hard and trying to make this world a better place.

wijam

Hey OP, from reading your post, you have already put a lot of time, effort and thought into this, and even moved specifically to the city you are in to help you on your way.

It's like a vocation rather than work for you, you have the drive and compulsion to do it, so I really think you should go for it, as, as you say, I think you would definitely regret later in life if you don't take the chance now.

In regards to contacting the PI, personally, I would see your family history as the driving force behind your work and consider it a good thing. By the sounds of it you have everything clearly documented, so, if it was me, I'd go give my pitch and include some details about what drives you to want to be successful, but that's just me.

Best of luck to you no matter what way you decide to go.

Metroid diorteM

I admire your drive but I’m concerned about revealing this personal information on a professional level because it might invite barriers to your work.

They may ask why you’re so interested though anyway.

jimmycrackcorm

Op, what you hoping to get out of a meeting with the group? Is it a commercial enterprise or a voluntary research group?
Are you looking to find work in this area?

Taking out your family connection, what you basically describe is an interest in the area with some solid data and ideas to back it up. So that is a basis to try progress anyway.

The family connection is a very positive motivator also do I don't see it being a disincentive anyway and actually should help you whatever way you want to progress.

ILoveYourVibes

Is this a personal issue?

You want to make a sales pitch to a lab?

I don't know enough to be able to advise you. I would think you would need professional advice and guidance.

Fakediamond

I know nothing about the area of research but I do have a couple of questions.

Do you want recognition/financial reward or a patent on any drug or treatment that might come out of your ideas? I might be on the wrong track entirely but maybe you need to answer those questions before disclosing your ideas/research. If i’m wrong about all of that, then I’d say follow your passion and dream and make your presentation. Do you have any suitable contacts that could arrange the initial introduction?

I don’t know enough about this area to know if you should mention the family connection but as it seems to be driving your interest, it might be a useful angle.

Faith

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Is this a personal issue?

You want to make a sales pitch to a lab?

I don't know enough to be able to advise you. I would think you would need professional advice and guidance.

Of course it’s a personal issue. Do you think personal issues can’t be about work-related things?

OP, I wonder if you could arrange to meet the PI for a “chat” first and sound them out about what would potentially be possible? I’d be inclined to keep your cards close to your chest to begin with. My fear would be you freely presenting your ideas and data that presumably isn’t published, and the lab sending you on your way but using your ideas to drive their own research forwards without your input. That may be cynical, but the academic world is hardcore and can be full of shadiness.

ILoveYourVibes

Faith wrote: »

Of course it’s a personal issue. Do you think personal issues can’t be about work-related things?

Well yes I started a thread about my career it was moved to career issues.



Also she/he might get more qualified answers there. The answer i received in my thread were of a much better standard with a broader depth of knowledge in work issues compared to here.

There could be a forum where people actually IN the role she wants to ask might cast an eye.

The value of your research or ideas will taken on its own merits I would imagine. Its no harm to tell of your personal experience. But its probably not going to alter their response to you.

The best person for research is chosen or should be chosen based on qualifications.

They should see you as every other applicant.

rock22

What-to-do wrote: »

Hi all,




Do I lay out everything to him including my family's history with the disease in question? ...

My initial plan is to design a series of fairly straightforward experiments, which should yield an answer as to whether I'm on to something or not; conduct the experiments myself, and present the data...



In general, what do you think? And specifically, how do you think I should approach the questions above?

To be honest, that is not how research is managed or conducted.
If you have an idea then discuss it with someone involved with the condition, at either research or treatment. They will probably have some questions which might show any difficulties in your ideas. But if it is useful then they might incorporate it into their research program.

I can see no way that you could carry out your own experiments and even if you did, the data would not be taken seriously until a number of leaders in the field would repeat and verify the data.

LegacyUser

OP here. Thanks for the replies guys and the encouraging words.

I'll try and get through some of your questions/points:

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Op, what you hoping to get out of a meeting with the group? Is it a commercial enterprise or a voluntary research group?
Are you looking to find work in this area?

Taking out your family connection, what you basically describe is an interest in the area with some solid data and ideas to back it up. So that is a basis to try progress anyway.

The family connection is a very positive motivator also do I don't see it being a disincentive anyway and actually should help you whatever way you want to progress.

It's an academic research group, which is on a university campus. I want to join this group and ultimately - if initial experiments go well - complete a PhD there. To be honest, the PhD is really a way of formalising things; it's the research itself and the personal connection that's driving me, rather than adding another qualification to my name. This is just the way things are done, and if my research proposal turns out to be even half-successful then there's easily a PhD thesis in that.

The family connection is what makes-or-breaks this. I had considered a PhD a few years back in a different lab I'd been in, and in a different area of medical research, but ultimately didn't have the drive or commitment to see it through. The family/personal aspect to this is what clinches it for me - the problem I have is how much of this do I reveal, both to the lab in question, and even to my friends and family.

Fakediamond wrote: »

I know nothing about the area of research but I do have a couple of questions.

Do you want recognition/financial reward or a patent on any drug or treatment that might come out of your ideas? I might be on the wrong track entirely but maybe you need to answer those questions before disclosing your ideas/research. If i’m wrong about all of that, then I’d say follow your passion and dream and make your presentation. Do you have any suitable contacts that could arrange the initial introduction?

I don’t know enough about this area to know if you should mention the family connection but as it seems to be driving your interest, it might be a useful angle.

I'm not doing this for financial reasons. If anything - particularly given how precarious academic research can be - I'm making quite a few financial sacrifices (foregoing higher salary/conditions etc elsewhere) by pursuing this. Would I want to be on any patent? Yes, but only in order to see it through to the clinic, not because I'm hoping to cash-in.

As for initial intros - in the past I've simply emailed labs with references and some questions on their research, which is nearly always enough to get one-on-one interview with the PI. It's probable that I'd take a similar approach here, and given what I know about the lab and PI, I don't foresee a problem in getting a meeting with them. The problem is more what comes after that. I do have contacts - other scientists - in the country in question. I also have a MSc, from another institution, which I know holds a lot of weight with the lab and university in question.

Faith wrote: »

Of course it’s a personal issue. Do you think personal issues can’t be about work-related things?

OP, I wonder if you could arrange to meet the PI for a “chat” first and sound them out about what would potentially be possible? I’d be inclined to keep your cards close to your chest to begin with. My fear would be you freely presenting your ideas and data that presumably isn’t published, and the lab sending you on your way but using your ideas to drive their own research forwards without your input. That may be cynical, but the academic world is hardcore and can be full of shadiness.

I will sound them out first - initial contact will be low key and I certainly won't lay everything out on the first go. Some of the ideas I have overlap between broader questions about some of the disease mechanisms and a straight-out therapeutic approach. I've already done a good bit of gene expression analysis from some datasets from other labs that supports some of my hypotheses - I guess I could mix and match some of this without giving away all of my ideas.

I think I've got a reasonably good handle on this PI though - that they're above board - but you're right about the risk of having ideas pilfered and being frozen out. That is a risk. Thanks for your reply.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Well yes I started a thread about my career it was moved to career issues.



Also she/he might get more qualified answers there. The answer i received in my thread were of a much better standard with a broader depth of knowledge in work issues compared to here.

There could be a forum where people actually IN the role she wants to ask might cast an eye.

The value of your research or ideas will taken on its own merits I would imagine. Its no harm to tell of your personal experience. But its probably not going to alter their response to you.

The best person for research is chosen or should be chosen based on qualifications.

They should see you as every other applicant.

I did think about putting this in another sub-forum, but my issue isn't about working in a lab per se or a career in science. I've worked in labs and already have a background in research. My principal issue is around navigating the personal aspects that I think are fairly unique to my situation - not just with the PI but with my family too.

There's a loop between the research - this lab and PI included - my family, the patient charities, the research funding from those charities and me. I'm worried that if I divulge my personal connection to the disease - or talk about my research to family & friends - then things could snowball. It's emotionally taxing at the best of times, and everyone involved in the research fundraising side of things are desperate for a breakthrough. I can't emphasise that enough. They even send patients to some of the labs conducting the research in order to put a human face on the disease. Is it reasonable or fair that I not mention my personal connection to this from the outset; do I conceal this entirely even after I become a member of the lab?

My concern is, I guess, in keeping things from people. The PI & lab; my family & friends etc. Is it justifiable/ethical that I conceal what I'm doing or even lie to them? I'd like to know what people think, and I don't think you need a background in scientific research to answer. I want to know what's in people's gut when they read this.

As for the last three paragraphs of your reply - this varies depending on the lab. Sometimes those with the best qualifications (grades, say) are not the best fit for a lab. And personal experience absolutely does matter, as does temperament. And trust me, they won't see me as any other candidate, and that's based on the data I'm going to present alone. And certainly not if I mention my sibling.

rock22 wrote: »

To be honest, that is not how research is managed or conducted.
If you have an idea then discuss it with someone involved with the condition, at either research or treatment. They will probably have some questions which might show any difficulties in your ideas. But if it is useful then they might incorporate it into their research program.

I can see no way that you could carry out your own experiments and even if you did, the data would not be taken seriously until a number of leaders in the field would repeat and verify the data.

I know how research is managed and conducted. I'm also fully prepared for any questions and I've plenty of my own.

For the initial set of experiments - I already know the procedures and I've carried out similar wet lab experiments in the past. I've also costed everything - the main cost being the free labour I'm providing, but also constructs, reagents, antibodies (all of which I'm prepared to pay for). These are some in-vitro experiments and are probably the least difficlut part of all of this - and there's no reason why the lab in question should have a difficulty with a new lab member carrying out these experiments. A three month intern could do them.

As for the data - it only needs to be taken seriously by the PI. Perhaps the academic committee for the PhD. No one else. This will simply be a starting point for further, more expensive research - animal models, sequencing etc. And in a few years, if everything goes well, maybe it goes to be published. Even then, it's unlikely that anyone would be repeating it in another lab - that's not what tends to happen in biological/biomedical research.

the14thwarrior

can you tell us what the disease is?

what is your primary goal here?

why are you doing this?

zapper55

The problem with telling them about your connection is that they might think you are too personally involved.

Also you are way overthinking this. Go through the steps, see if you get it and take it from there. Many people choose research because it has a personal meaning, maybe not as personal as yours but still.

Also I wouldnt name the disease here in case it identifies you.

ILoveYourVibes

If you don't mind the encroach into your personal life tell them. If you are reticent don't. You can always tell them at a later date.

Once its out you having this condition its out. If you are ready for that tell them.

If you are not. don't.