Nuetering - what age and pro/con

Sheepdish1

Hi,

Just trying to understand why some people hold off getting their pets neutered.

I know it is a topic that is debated. I am trying to understand if vets recommend waiting until a certain age for heath reasons? Does this differ for male or female dogs?

One obstacle for some people is the cost of it can be a barrier for some people but there does seem to be places that do it for less. Or some may feel they just don't like the idea of it. I've looked up online and can't find much info on correct age but understand 6 months is the norm. Is this correct?

Is there a reason any of you held off and why? Thanks

Cherry Blossom

My dog was neutered at a year and a half. It is recommended that they reach maturity before neutering. There is a higher risk of bone cancer in dogs that are neutered before they reach maturity. My dogs are not allowed to wander so there is no risk of breeding. The only reason he was neutered at all is because he had undecended testes. My bitch was neutered at 6 months due to a hormone imbalace that caused her to go into heat at a very young age (18 weeks). I would have had her done at a year and a half otherwise, the risk of females in heat is greater for unwanted breeding as dogs can smell them for miles and we had a few gentleman callers from the local roaming dog population when she was in heat so its more convenient to have bitches neutered than not.

beveragelady

I held off with my male dog for a few reasons. He was very sick with parvo as a pup and took ages to recover. It seemed awful to bring him back into the vet for more torture. He wasn't at all aggressive or territorial or anything, and he never ever got a chance to wander, so there were no behavioral reasons for doing it. He was a terrible scaredy cat and I convinced myself he needed every bit of testosterone he could muster.
I know none of these are good reasons and I absolutely agree that neutering is the way to go. There's no way I'd have an un-neutered female, or an un-neutered cat, male or female.
The dog had prostate difficulty in his old age and was neutered when he was eleven to help with that. He recovered very quickly and there was no change in his personality. Yep, I should definitely have done it when he was a pup.

DBB

Male Rotties neutered prior to one year of age have a one-in-four chance of developing bone cancer.
So far, they are the most at-risk breed, but other large breeds are also put at greater risk by neutering prior to 1 year of age.
Dogs of larger breeds and types are also inclined to grow taller than they otherwise would have, but it's a disproportionate growth, their legs tends to be too long in proportion to their bodies. This has a consequent effect on their joints and joint health. The removal of sex hormones during the growth phase seems to affect how quickly/how much growth put in by the growth plates.
Vets are increasingly advising owners to hold off, based on the research to date.
That's stuff we know about, there are more I haven't addressed. Given that we probably don't know enough yet about other consequences of early neutering, I would always err on the side of caution.
After donkey's years of involvement in the rescue sector, and other spheres of dogdom, I've concluded that neutering isn't working to control dog overpopulation. Why? Mainly because the sort of people who neuter their dogs are the very ones who wouldn't allow their dogs to procreate anyway... In other words, the very people that should be neutering their dogs, aren't, and probably won't.

Sheepdish1

'' Dogs of larger breeds and types are also inclined to grow taller than they otherwise would have, but it's a disproportionate growth, their legs tends to be too long in proportion to their bodies. This has a consequent effect on their joints and joint health. The removal of sex hormones during the growth phase seems to affect how quickly/how much growth put in by the growth plates.''

Hi, Do you mean this happens if they are neutered before 1? Do you mean that their legs can grow too much but other parts of them don't? Interesting point that the growth is disproportionate if that is what you mean. Do you know what way would this affect their joints out of curiosity?

Yes, good point about the people who actually neuter likely don't let their dogs wander. I wonder does it affect dogs being found one they escape accidentally. Would they wander for miles looking for female the way cats do. I think in most rescues the age recommended is 6 months.......but maybe that is for smaller breeds or case by case basis.

mymo

My 11 year old boy was 3 when neutered, as a breed they are slow to mature, he also was very nervous, still is a bit, and I had been warned by his breeder that his mother and a brother had reactions under anesthesia, my worries on that front turned out to be valid, he stopped breathing, vet nearly lost him, I had warned vet, but he said he wasn't a breed that was sensitive to anesthetic. I changed vets.
My 10 year old bitch came into heat at just 5 months, vet recommended neutering due to hormone issue like DBB.
I have a 14 month old who one vet wanted my to neuter at 6 months, 2 female vets looked at her and said she was far to puppyish and they both know the breed and said wait a few months. She came into heat the Friday before she was due to be spayed, at almost 11 months then had phantom pregnancy. So we're waiting for hormones to fully settle, the breed generally have one season a year, so we have time.
I don't think one size fits all, do them all before 6 months as one vet suggested, is a good idea. Breeds differ so much, sizes make a difference, I've read nervous and anxious dogs should be given time to mature, there are many factors.

Edit to add, as DBB said, the ones that should neuter, that let dogs roam, won't neuter, I know of a few that even if it was free still wouldn't neuter.

DBB

"Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Hi, Do you mean this happens if they are neutered before 1? Do you mean that their legs can grow too much but other parts of them don't? Interesting point that the growth is disproportionate if that is what you mean. Do you know what way would this affect their joints out of curiosity?

The effects of early neutering (pre sexual maturity) are researched and reasonably well documented, so you'll find plenty of information online with a quick search.

http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/news/health-implications-in-early.html

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/reexamining-early-spay-neuter-paradigm-dogs

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/health-risks-of-early-spay-neuter/

Rescues that recommend early neutering have only been going with what advice they were getting from their vets. That's changing. But rescues are also caught by pressure to have their dogs neutered prior to rehoming, for obvious reasons. So it's a tough bind for rescues, doing what's best for the dog might not be what's best for the dog!

Sheepdish1

Thanks DDB, I’ll have a look at the links you supplied on the health aspects of it.

It’s interesting to hear the reasons people hold off on it and they seem like valid reasons too. Being honest, I assumed a lot of people didn’t do it as they didn’t like the idea of it for the males and felt that females “should” have a set of puppies.

Would love to hear from other reasons they held off on it.

Yes valid point about rescues....they are doing their best be on shoe string budget so it makes sense to do it at 6 months to prevent more unwanted dogs that may have more significant health problems due to being neglected or abandoned down the road.

em_cat

For the most part I’m for neutering full stop simply because the vast amount of people don’t see that accidental litters and nepotistic litters ( I’m talking about the people who think their bitch is so special that is would be cruel not to let them have a litter...) is wrong.

People that anthropomorphise that their male would miss his bits annoy the sh*te out of me.

However I am happy to see that studies are being carried out to see if neutering at such an early age is not as beneficial as it was once thought.

uck51js9zml2yt

Got both my male cat and female dog done at 5 months.

Sheepdish1

em_cat wrote: »

For the most part I’m for neutering full stop simply because the vast amount of people don’t see that accidental litters and nepotistic litters ( I’m talking about the people who think their bitch is so special that is would be cruel not to let them have a litter...) is wrong.

People that anthropomorphise that their male would miss his bits annoy the sh*te out of me.

However I am happy to see that studies are being carried out to see if neutering at such an early age is not as beneficial as it was once thought.

I kind of assumed it was mainly due to people anthropomorphising too. ie male should be allowed keep his bits and female should be allowed have puppies. It’s interesting to see there are other reasons behind why people don’t do it though! There seems to be conflicting advice from vets too, some say it’s ok and others say leave it until a year or two if possible.

I wonder if there are side effects with cats. I feel cats reproduce far easier and more quickly than dogs due to them being semi domesticated as opposed to fully domesticated like dogs.....but overall I would think it’s far more beneficial to do this ASAP particularly because feral cats have such tough lives. there is not as much growth too compared to large dog breeds either.

Knine

I keep my male dogs entire. I much prefer how they look compared to a neutered male. Anyone that says a neutered male looks the same has never stood two side by side. One of the breeds I am involved with is much more likely to die from bone cancer if neutered young & they grow very tall but with a huge loss of bone. I do a lot of outdoor activities with my dogs. Neutering can make hand stripping very difficult & therefore they lose their waterproof coat. Collie or Retriever types can get a very Woolly coat.

The entire dogs have better muscle tone, better coats, more motivation & are livelier. The dogs I've had done all have had joint issues, can be reactive to both sexes.

My dogs do not mark in the house, do not try to escape after the ladies & are well behaved around them. I have never lost a male to testicular cancer either.

I get the girls spayed though due to the risk of pyo, control phantoms & because heats are a pain. They generally will have 2 litters first & will be done about 5 or 6 years of age.

em_cat

I also agree with Knine & DBB, but given that 99% of people with males as pets ( not show / reputable breeders) don’t have a clue, that’s why I’m in favour of neutering.

For example, our neighbours Frenchie, he’s a bully, obnoxious, marks and is reactive & intact. He’s been banned from the local doggy daycare, groomers and generally is to be avoided at all costs. Most of these issues stem from lack of training, socialisation and a stupid owner. Would neutering solve these issues, probably not but it wouldn’t have hurt.

I also know a couple of very well behaved, trained and loveable intact mastiff/boxer crosses but the difference is down to the owners not necessarily because they are intact.

I find it amazing that in some countries they don’t have rescues because they are not needed. They also don’t neuter. It’s simply because the penalties are very severe such as a days wage, weeks wage, month etc & they are enforced.

Varta

I agree with Knine, no need to neuter a male. In fact, it ruins them, no matter what anyone in the rescue services say. And I fully understand their motives. There are a number of good health reasons to neuter a female dog, in addition to the obvious population control. As was said already, responsible owners do not let their dogs wander, yet it is only responsible owners who neuter. Most rescue dogs these days are lurchers or 'fighting' breeds, so it's easy to see where the issue stems from. Though not PC to say it.

tk123

OK so my two are retrievers.. Bailey was neutered too early and has angular limb deformity (as well as being fearful / ocd at times ) so I'd need a very bad health / behavioural issue I couldn't handle to ever neuter a male again. After B the plan (made at her 6 month checkup) for Lucy was to wait and let her grow to avoid any issues that could be caused by messing with growth plates - vet was delighted I was on the same page as her and happy to deal with a heat or two rather than spay too early for my connivence. She didn't have her first heat until 13 months so we waited a few months and she was done at 17 months.

It's funny because I know people locally who are getting large breeds neutered / spayed at 6 months per the advice in the local vets (my old vets - who neutered Bailey at 6 months)... my new vets who do a lot of ortho surgeries recommend people wait and let the dog grow.

Choc Chip

Varta wrote: »

it ruins them, no matter what anyone in the rescue services say.

You might get people's backs up with the wording there Varta. I wouldn't have neutered my little lad so early if I'd owned him then, but he's far from "ruined".

I feel hugely hypocritical about this issue because if I got a puppy I'd wait until they were fully grown before neutering. The effects of testosterone on muscle development and bone density would have me waiting to neuter a male, if at all. I'd also be looking into ovarian sparing spays for a bitch, because I feel uncomfortable about removing hormones that are potentially connected to brain function in humans.

Having said all that, all my foster dogs are neutered before they leave. I don't trust people. I have 2 friends who would consider themselves "responsible" owners (happy dogs who live in the house and are walked every day) and their dogs had litters this year. The bitches were "caught" or "mistakes happen". Neither are sure who the father of the pups is. It's not only those dogs who are allowed to roam who are having pups - people are lazy (sure I'm lazy, I just make my dogs a priority), they don't pay attention, their dogs have poor recall and go shooting off, and people think puppies are cute and "what's the harm".

So I'm a sad member of the 'do as I say, not as I do' camp. If I got a puppy I'd likely leave spaying til later (if at all for a male). But for the vast majority of owners who want a dog to laze about the house, walked once or twice a day, no dog sports and little training... I think it's easier and safer for them and the dog to neuter. I know that makes me a hypocrite.

Sheepdish1

tk123 wrote: »

OK so my two are retrievers.. Bailey was neutered too early and has angular limb deformity (as well as being fearful / ocd at times ) so I'd need a very bad health / behavioural issue I couldn't handle to ever neuter a male again. After B the plan (made at her 6 month checkup) for Lucy was to wait and let her grow to avoid any issues that could be caused by messing with growth plates - vet was delighted I was on the same page as her and happy to deal with a heat or two rather than spay too early for my connivence. She didn't have her first heat until 13 months so we waited a few months and she was done at 17 months.

It's funny because I know people locally who are getting large breeds neutered / spayed at 6 months per the advice in the local vets (my old vets - who neutered Bailey at 6 months)... my new vets who do a lot of ortho surgeries recommend people wait and let the dog grow.

Very interesting the ortho vets recommend to wait for the dog to finish growing and reach maturity.

I wonder do all breeds roughly reach maturity at the same time or do some need to wait longer depending on size of breed. Eg Jack Russel versus Irish wolfhound for example.

Sheepdish1

tk123 wrote: »

OK so my two are retrievers.. Bailey was neutered too early and has angular limb deformity (as well as being fearful / ocd at times ) so I'd need a very bad health / behavioural issue I couldn't handle to ever neuter a male again. After B the plan (made at her 6 month checkup) for Lucy was to wait and let her grow to avoid any issues that could be caused by messing with growth plates - vet was delighted I was on the same page as her and happy to deal with a heat or two rather than spay too early for my connivence. She didn't have her first heat until 13 months so we waited a few months and she was done at 17 months.

It's funny because I know people locally who are getting large breeds neutered / spayed at 6 months per the advice in the local vets (my old vets - who neutered Bailey at 6 months)... my new vets who do a lot of ortho surgeries recommend people wait and let the dog grow.

Very interesting the ortho vets recommend to wait for the dog to finish growing and reach maturity.

I wonder do all breeds roughly reach maturity at the same time or do some need to wait longer depending on size of breed. Eg Jack Russel versus Irish wolfhound for example.

AryaStark

I had to get Nymeria spayed at 2 because she developed pyometra after her second heat. I was planning on getting her done anyway as didn't want pups but wanted her to be a little older!

Our new puppy Drogon will have to be done as the rescue he is from insists on it! I have a deal with them to wait until he is after 2.

Ill be taking him to the vet this week though as I have noticed that his testicles haven't dropped yet.. he is almost 5 months. Ive no experience with this so will check it with the vet. We dont want to breed him but with a male if I had the choice I wouldn't neuter at all.

DBB

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

Very interesting the ortho vets recommend to wait for the dog to finish growing and reach maturity.

Of course they do.. The scientific evidence available is pretty overwhelming that dogs, certainly larger breed dogs, male and female, should not be neutered until they've matured. Vets, being applied scientists, would be foolish indeed not to be steered by the "best practise" which is dictated not by anecdotal opinion or supposition, but by research, and evidence. This is never more pronounced than it is today, and a vet who neuters eg a Rottie at 6 months for no other reason than to neuter him, and the dog then goes on to develop bone cancer, is surely leaving themselves open to legal action by ignoring the research available to them.
Yes, some vets are still pushing the 6 month thing. They're inclined to be older vets who might not be keeping updated, or it could be relating to smaller breeds of dogs that so far, there isn't the weight of evidence to support not neutering them. Maybe some owners decide to take the risk and insist the large dog is neutered anyway. Sometimes, a cost-benefit analysis has to be done if there are behavioural or health issues which are being made worse due to the presence of sex hormones.

I wonder do all breeds roughly reach maturity at the same time or do some need to wait longer depending on size of breed. Eg Jack Russel versus Irish wolfhound for example.

Small dogs mature quite a bit faster. Their bones and growth plates, tendons and ligaments don't have nearly as much work to do as a large breed's do. You'll readily find all of this information online if you take a look.

Tony H

I have a golden retriever who is coming up to two years old and is not neutered ,as were my previous two goldens ,

we have a fairly large garden which is fully walled and fenced so very little chance of him escaping ,he is with us most of the time and we have no behavioural issues ,

Can't really see any reason for neutering him as the main cancer that it prevents is testicular cancer which can be detected early with regular checking ,

Our last golden died of lymphoma and as far as I can tell neutering would not have prevented this ,
it really is up to the individual owner and there seems to be no right answer ,
unwanted litters are a scourge but responsible owners are not the cause of them .

tk123

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

V
I wonder do all breeds roughly reach maturity at the same time or do some need to wait longer depending on size of breed. Eg Jack Russel versus Irish wolfhound for example.

Well the fact that she went into heat at 13 months shows that different dogs mature at different times - the same way as people do!

Sheepdish1

Small dogs mature quite a bit faster. Their bones and growth plates, tendons and ligaments don't have nearly as much work to do as a large breed's do. You'll readily find all of this information online if you take a look.

Thanks for reply! I know there is info online but it’s hard to know what it correct info or not. Must start bookmarking certain websites that seem accurate!