Please help me to figure out my dog's behaviour

Bananaleaf

And more importantly to help me figure out if I could be the cause of it!

So, he is 1.5yrs old male whippet. Not yet neutered, will be at 2yrs old.

He is extremely friendly and great with children. Very friendly with other dogs, if a bit boisterous in his play. However, when I bring him out for walks he will (sometimes, not always) bark at other dogs and wrestle to get off lead and closer to them. I know that he isn't aggressive, but he is doing a good job at making himself look that way to other dog owners and this concerns me.

A quick Google brought me to this article: http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/help-my-dog-lunges-at-other-dogs

It basically says I am dealing with 'barrier frustration' and that me keeping him on a tight rein is exacerbating the situation. I do hold him closer and tighter as we walk past other dogs. I am worried he will lunge out at them. Have I created this situation? Am I too tense to be walking him?

My plan is to bring a bag of treats with me tomorrow and use this to hold his attention while trying to do loos(er) lead as we walk. Hopefully I can reverse it.

The odd thing to me is that it doesn't happen with every dog and there doesn't seem to be a 'type' of dog that gets this reaction out of him.

Will this die down once he is neutered? Am I too late to train it out of him? He is not a rescue dog and hasn't known a minute of trauma in his entire life.

Please don't give out to me, I'm trying my best.

Thanks

Hoboo

Sounds normal, he just needs a bit more meet and greet, to the point he couldn't be arsed anymore. Let him say hello, and then walk on. 3 seconds, sniff and go. Some owners are afraid a row will kick off, 3 seconds isn't enough time for them to have verbals, and enough to satisfy his nose and work out who's who. Eventually it'll be a courteous nod, maybe a sniff. He's just saying hi and being a dog. Maybe a treat when he walks away will get him in the groove. The ones he's particularly interested, bring him over,let him say hi. But if the other dog isn't happy walk away. Don't stress anyone. Enjoy.

Bananaleaf

Hoboo wrote: »

Sounds normal, he just needs a bit more meet and greet, to the point he couldn't be arsed anymore. Let him say hello, and then walk on. 3 seconds, sniff and go. Some owners are afraid a row will kick off, 3 seconds isn't enough time for them to have verbals, and enough to satisfy his nose and work out who's who. Eventually it'll be a courteous nod, maybe a sniff. He's just saying hi and being a dog. Maybe a treat when he walks away will get him in the groove. Enjoy.

Oh thank you so much for this. I was so worried and upset because he really is a great dog, such a wonderful little character. More exposure so that it becomes so normal it's boring - that's what we will do. Thank you

Hoboo

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Oh thank you so much for this. I was so worried and upset because he really is a great dog, such a wonderful little character. More exposure so that it becomes so normal it's boring - that's what we will do. Thank you

If you're tense he's tense, reassure him and he'll be grand. And praise (and a treat).

DBB

Hi bananaleaf
The behaviour you're seeing sounds very like frustration, which is extremely common in young dogs that have, or are in the process of transitioning into proper adulthood. It's often more pronounced in young males thanks to teenage testosterone coursing through their veins! The youngster is still trying to figure out how to deal with meeting dogs he doesn't know, and it's very much associated with being on-lead, because it's stopping him from handling the situation exactly how he'd like. He's dying to go over and say hello, but he can't. Also add in a dollop of the uncertainty many young dogs feel when they meet an unknown dog, trying to figure out is the other dog safe to approach, or not. It takes a lot of time and experience for dogs to learn the nuances of what other dogs are saying to them. Teenagers just haven't had enough time or experience, and they tend to be a bit gob****ey because of it
But... Life is life... It's not always going to be possible for him to fly over to other dogs to say hello. Young dogs have to learn this, and have to learn that it is actually possible to walk peaceful past another dog!
The problem is that if you keep going as you are, the frustrated behaviour very often becomes more intense, and that uncertainty I mentioned above can turn into full-blown fear, which makes walking a dog really unpleasant, for you and the dog.
So, to my mind, the best way to deal with this, with all teenage dogs, is to teach them to focus on you in the presence of other dogs. This is going to be a gradual process, and is unlikely to be achievable if your opening gambit is to offer him treats when you're out walking... His frustration and excitement is likely to trump any interest he has in any food you have to offer! Now... Maybe you've already tried the food treats and they've worked. Sometimes they do! In which case, just ignore me
But, if not, which is more usual, it's a good idea to teach your dog a really strong "look at me" cue. You'll need to start this at home, and gradually increase the level of distraction over the next few weeks. A minimum of 20 reps in each training session, preferably a minimum of 3 times a day.
It goes like this... Say his name so his attention is even somewhat oriented towards you, then say your chosen cue... I use "Look?", with an upward inflection. Then I immediately give the dog a really high-value treat (ham, cheese, chorizo... Something he adores), and he gets the treats whether he responds or not. Keep doing this... You should find that by the end of Day 1, when you give that verbal cue, that he looks at you with a lot of interest! Treat him every time. The more you practise, the stronger and more reliable the response... This is classical conditioning in action, and it is a very powerful technique.
When you head out for your walks, arm yourself with treats, and as you walk along, practise this cue. You want to be getting a reliable response outside too. A treat pouch attached to your waist is a very handy thing to have.
Now. Other dogs. Preferably, until you have this cue well established, try as hard as you can to avoid other dogs, at the very least avoid walking headlong into them. I live near the canal, so I walk along the quiet bank, and when another dog appears on the opposite side, I practise the "Look?" cue at this safe remove. If I see another dog approaching on my bank, I skedaddle to a safe place where I can either allow my dog to observe from a distance, or position him so he never actually sees the other dog at all... It's important to "protect" your training particularly in the first few weeks, and avoid situations he's not ready for yet. I also find open public places where I can sit quietly in a spot of my choosing, allowing the dog to observe other dogs from a distance, to which I give the "Look?" cue, followed by a treat. And enthusiastic congratulations The distance you must keep in the opening stages is absolutely down to your dog... If you can't get his attention, the other dog is too close for your lad's comfort.
What happens, when you do this in a nice, easy, unthreatening way, is that your dog comes to associate other dogs with lovely treats, as long as he looks at you when he spots them. You get a double whammy... You're teaching an alternative, calmer response to other dogs (right now, the only way he knows is to act like a loon in this situation), and you're conditioning a happy, positive association with other dogs because other dogs=nyom treats.
So, treats are a must, but for now, so is distance, until he learns the alternative. Once he can handle other dogs at a distance, you can start to close the gap bit by bit.
Just one final thing... Depending on the dog, a squeaky ball or toy can be a fab alternative to food. My own dogs have become conditioned to look towards me when I say "find the ball!", because from Day 1 when I got them, I'd call this out before throwing the ball for them. It's so ingrained in them at this stage that no matter what they're doing, if I call "find the ball!" out, they'll do a somersault to orientate their attention back onto me... But I don't call the cue unless I can follow through with something to throw for them! Your dog needs to be a ball (or toy) nut for this to work.
I hope this all makes sense! Feel free to ask any questions to clarify

Sheepdish1

Hi OP, it hard to know without seeing the dog if he is just over excited or if he is reacting on lead out of frustration or because you are starting to tense up when you see dogs approaching. They can fell this tension from lead and it can make them nervous. You haven’t done anything wrong. It is a common problem with dogs, I now realise when I see people walking dogs very late or early they are likely avoiding other dogs but it doesn’t resolve the issue.

Some dogs don’t like other dogs in their space ( and owners) so you are right to keep him on lead in areas where other dogs etc are unless it is a dog park.

Good advice in above post but It would be really good to work with a trainer on this. The sessions would teach you a numbers of additional cues to “look at me” that would be useful to when this is happening. Are there any reputable daycares in your area that he could go into a couple of days a week? Depending on what the daycare says whether it’s suitable or not for your dog at the moment..... you need to tell them what is happening so they are aware of it so they can make a fair assessment.

If you use a retractable lead best thing you can do is put it in the bin as this will make problem worse. There are leads that “double over” so you can make short or long easily depending on where you are. A side clip harness could be good too as it will pull dog towards you as opposed to him pulling on collar. Their necks are quite delicate so this is something to be mindful of if he is pulling hard.

tk123

God a daycare is the last place I’d take the OPs dog....he needs to learn how to switch off and that other dogs do not always equal playtime. No offence intended to the OP but anyone I’ve ever met who describes their dog as boisterous...has a dog who’s bat**** crazy around other dogs. No fun for other walkers say like me with Bailey - I don’t want another dog barrelling into him and I don’t want him thinking he needs to discipline somebody’s dog for them.. no fun for the OP now as the dog’s cute puppy license has expired and its getting a bit embarrassing!
My friend’s dog has learnt that me asking my two to look = treats so she runs over lol

Bananaleaf

Wow, thank you so much everybody for the great, detailed replies. DBB - your advice is great. He is going to be getting 'look at me' in his ear day and night from now on.

tk123 - yeah, he goes crazy around other dogs. A lot of barking and a lot of pulling, chomping at the bit to get over to other dogs. And you're right, it isn't fun and is getting embarrassing.

Daycare isn't an option as he isn't yet neutered and tbh, as previously mentioned, I think the problem is that the most exposure he has gotten to other dogs has been in a socialisation setting where they are all let off lead in an enclosed area and they all go mad for an hr.

We have noticed that lately he is also a lot more vocal at home - the odd bark here and there, but most of the time more moaning (sometimes described by other owners as 'talking') not whining either. So, the teenager idea is something that makes sense.

I went out this evening with treats (he does respond to treats) and we approached a dog on the opposite side of the road. Used the treat to guide him along and it worked that time, only for us to be heading home all satisfied with our walk and as we walked past one house there was an alsation lying at the doorway (inside the house) who obviously sensed us going past and went crazy, barking like mad. This set my lad off barking and I had to coax him away with the treat.

The positive is that at least I know that the treats will work but I will get right on the 'look at me'. Oh man, I am really feeling clueless as a dog owner right now. The pressure that parents of children must feel is incredible I imagine.

Sheepdish1

tk123 wrote: »

God a daycare is the last place I’d take the OPs dog....he needs to learn how to switch off and that other dogs do not always equal playtime. No offence intended to the OP but anyone I’ve ever met who describes their dog as boisterous...has a dog who’s bat**** crazy around other dogs. No fun for other walkers say like me with Bailey - I don’t want another dog barrelling into him and I don’t want him thinking he needs to discipline somebody’s dog for them.. no fun for the OP now as the dog’s cute puppy license has expired and its getting a bit embarrassing!
My friend’s dog has learnt that me asking my two to look = treats so she runs over lol

I did mention for the OP to work with trainer on this. It’s not possible without seeing the dog if the dog is just excited or if it is being reactive towards other dogs due to being on lead, or if they dog is reactive on and off lead.

If the OP works with a reputable trainer they’ll be able to assess if the dog is just excited to play or if the dog is reactive on lead. He should used trainer from ADPT site as they have been assessed and need to meet high standards to pass as ADPT trainers.

If a trainer determines it is excitement a run day cares which could take the excitement out of seeing other dogs on walks......if its excitement what is causing it is that is. Training would need to be done first or under guidance of trainer in my opinion. It’s impossible to determine what it is without observing dog imo.

In fairness to the OP he keeps his dog on lead so is being responsible . Owners that let dogs wander off lead in busy areas are more annoying than a dog OP has described above. Some owners, dogs or kids don’t like being approached by dogs off lead. They usually say “it’s ok not dog is friendly!”. OP has dog under control on lead

Sheepdish1

Op you’ll need to teach your dog to look at you in area with fewer distractions first, eg house and back garden....and gradually increase the time ( duration), distance and distraction to make sure the cue is solid and reliable. There are training classes you could go to, make sure they are positive reinforcement and run by reputable and experienced trainers if you go to one.

Just out of curiosity why are you not neutering your dog? Do you know if it’s females that he’s approaching when you are out ?

Bananaleaf

I am googling ADPT right now to investigate this option. There is one trainer who lives near me, and I also saw a familiar name on that website too!! :) Knowing my dog and knowing his temperament, both in general at home/with children and also when he is around dogs he has met before when we do go for a walk, I would be very surprised if this isn't just excitement, but I agree that I am not experienced enough to tackle this issue alone at first and would benefit from some help.

In response to the neutering question - we were advised that leaving it until 1.5 - 2yrs old is best in order to give him a chance to fully develop first. Maybe we should aim to have this done closer to the 1.5 than the 2 at this rate!

I tried 'look at me' with him this morning and he is clever. He figured out immediately that all he had to do was look at me to get the treat, so he just sat there staring at me the whole time! We did initially bring him for behaviour training, and we did a small bit of 'look at me' with him then, so I had remembered they said things like hold the treat at arms length and get him to focus his attention back on you and then he will get the treat, so I did a bit of that

I also made him do a bit more than just 'look' for the treat, so - sit down lie down, sit back up, give me your paw, then look and treat. Is that okay or am I overcomplicating it? I'm also hiding his favourite toys in plain sight and when he is getting worked up and crying for them I command 'look' to try and take it up a level, get his attention in a situation where he is in a bit of a mood.

DBB

Great stuff Bananaleaf
I'm all for making things more challenging, by all means do stuff around the house that he already knows but make it harder for him, it'll help to broaden the circumstances under which he checks in with you.
I think you're selling yourself short as a trainer, it sounds to me like you've got this.
I'm not of the opinion that it's impossible to figure out what's going on with him, I thought your description of his behaviour ticked all the boxes for teenage frustration, and you had already sussed that out yourself anyway.
There certainly are circumstances where it's unwise to attempt a remote diagnosis, particularly in relation to certain behavioural conditions, but this didn't strike me as one of those
Of course, if you'd like to get a trainer in, go for it! Is it Ríonach Day you found, in Celbridge? Or Jenny Treanor in Kill? Both are fab, really lovely ladies and very talented trainers

Bananaleaf

DBB wrote: »

Great stuff Bananaleaf
I'm all for making things more challenging, by all means do stuff around the house that he already knows but make it harder for him, it'll help to broaden the circumstances under which he checks in with you.
I think you're selling yourself short as a trainer, it sounds to me like you've got this.
I'm not of the opinion that it's impossible to figure out what's going on with him, I thought your description of his behaviour ticked all the boxes for teenage frustration, and you had already sussed that out yourself anyway.
There certainly are circumstances where it's unwise to attempt a remote diagnosis, particularly in relation to certain behavioural conditions, but this didn't strike me as one of those
Of course, if you'd like to get a trainer in, go for it! Is it Ríonach Day you found, in Celbridge? Or Jenny Treanor in Kill? Both are fab, really lovely ladies and very talented trainers

Thank you so much DBB! Your encouragement means a lot to me! It was Rionach in Celbridge.

To be honest, I have a really close bond with my dog and I love him more than anything and I would love to be the one who works with him on this, not because I want to save money or because I'm pigheaded - I just love any opportunity to bond with him and I love teaching him things. I'm trying to teach him to close the doors after him when he opens them at the moment :pac: Mostly because I'm tired of getting up to do it after him every time!

I will give it a really decent shot myself first and we will see how it goes.

I've contacted the vet anyway about neutering Am scared for the little guy but I have contacted Denis Beary who is meant to be the (male equivalent of) Florence Nightengale of the sight hound world so hopefully the little guy will be in the best hands possible

Thank you again, genuinely means a lot as I am feeling a little useless at the moment. I just want him to be as close to perfect as he can be - his breeder* is a phenomenal woman and had done trojan work with him so I feel like I owe it to her and to him to keep it up as he is well capable.

*I know the word breeder makes people cringe but she is one of the good ones, I can assure you.

DBB

Seriously... It sounds like you're well able to do this yourself. You can always check in here for little tweaks that might be needed along the way.
I wouldn't necessarily be racing to neuter him either. Whilst testosterone does fuel aggressive behaviour, some of the most obedient and disciplined dogs you'll meet are unneutered males, and some of the worst are neutered males. Testosterone fuels bad behaviour, but doesn't necessarily cause it, and that's an important distinction. Given that your guy doesn't seem to me to be showing aggression at this stage, I wouldn't be too sure that neutering will solve the problem. If you deal with these issues early, before they become a problem, his hormones shouldn't really impact too much on your success. No harm in giving this a shot before taking the nuclear option!

tk123

OP I have to say - you seem to know your dog very well and I think you’ve got this covered. By all means go to a trainer if you think you need some help but give yourself some credit and time to work on it. Another approach I’ve done with Lucy is ‘what’s that?’ So we acknowledge there’s another dog there and then she focuses on me - she’s a bit wary of some other dogs after one lunged at her .. and while she has her look command we just changed it up for this situation with a different cue and it’s worked out quite well. Lucy is great for eye contact... Bailey not so much so we settle for less with him and work with what we’ve got. I’m a big fan of my clickers too... but out and about you’re going to have everyone looking around to see what that noise was so you may or may not be ok with that lol

Edited to add ... be careful not to label (or have somebody else else label) your dog as reactive - I know lots of dogs who are ar$es because they have no training - that doesn’t make them reactive but i see this being thrown around a lot often by noice owners or amateur behaviourists.. the same way the park or FB are full of amateur vets or nutritionalists etc

jimf

it doesn't sound like aggression in the least to me

frustration of been on the lead more likely and full of youthful energy

any little enclosed area near you where you could let him interact off lead with another dog he might know

learning to play is after all part of growing up hes still really a big baby at 18m

Choc Chip

I've had a couple of issues that DBB has encouraged me to work on by myself, and while they weren't quick fixes, we did get there in the end.

In fairness, while I love classes and go along to agility (and a trainer is great to take a look at what you're doing and correct your mistakes), it's mostly your work that's going to fix this, and I mainly go to training to try their obstacles, get some feedback on my approach and what I should be working on, and test what we've learned in a different environment. The vast majority of the work you to do train or fix anything is going to be on you.

I did get a good chuckle out of your comment about raising kids! I've got a friend who's just had a baby. I was saying to her that I accidentally taught my dog to brush her face against weave poles rather than pass through poles and had to re-train from scratch. I've no idea how people teach their kids about complex things like morality - sounds like a minefield. I'd be the person who taught their kids to brush their teeth wrong or something.

ILoveYourVibes

Get another dog for him to have as a mate.

Bananaleaf

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Get another dog for him to have as a mate.

Well, as it happens, we are getting a second dog next year, but I would prefer to have this issue solved by then, rather than waiting for that to fix it. And anyway, I don't think a second dog will solve this particular issue ...

... so ... we went out again today. Did the whole 'look' thing. In the house, then outside the house. Grand. The minute we hit the canal and he started sniffing there was just no getting his attention. He had a total one track mind.

We encountered one dog only on the walk. I was calmer this time and gave him a looser lead and was trying to coax him onward with the treat, but he was hyper as hell to get over to the other dog. He didn't bark this time, but was very excited. I asked the owner if her dog was male or female. She said female. After they had gone he sniffed and sniffed the ground where she was standing like crazy, dug in his little heels and it was really hard to move him on...

I think I have my answer. He's going to have to be neutered anyway (it's in our contract) so may as well now I suppose. I know it won't solve everything.

Here's a strange one though. He does have a fascination with bikes. He likes to chase them if he could get away with it. It's part of the breed I guess - anything that moves quick is like a lure to him. He can be the same with runners. But, on the way home today there was a cyclist stopped at the lights. He was fascinated with her, staring. She responded by leaning over her bike and speaking to him, calling him cute. There was a whole footpath's distance between them, so she didn't invade his space or anything, and he just started barking away at her and sort of lunging. Now, what the hell is that? He doesn't usually bark at people. Is it like a sexual frustration maybe? Something in him from the encounter 15mins previously with the female dog?

The stress!

tk123

You need to have it solid at home first - I think you might be expecting too much too soon for him to have it outside? One of my dogs is on quite a restricted diet atm and I've taken to bringing those squeezey pouches of baby food/smoothie - I only get the fruit ones but you can get meaty ones etc that might entice him more out on walks. They rustle too so adds to the excitement of them!

em_cat

OP, it might be that teaching him to scatter feed ( go find) while outdoors would be good too. You establish it indoors, distraction free then with super tiny baby steps teach it around distractions.

Walking him on the Canal is probably not wise atm as that is super high distraction. Maybe find a quit green or residential roads for the time being. Is he getting his run in each day?

Also you should teach him to focus on you when people coo and try waking him within his threshold. Our Pom x freaks out when people (mostly women) coo at her, it actually frightens her so I’ve very gently desensitised her to it so she focuses on me instead of panicking.

We’ve also a rescue Yorkie x that suffers from the same issues but with him it’s about management not fixing.

I’ve found canine enrichments groups on fb that have done wonders for his mental stimulation so he’s a little more confident & calmer on walks.

DBB

tk123 wrote: »

You need to have it solid at home first - I think you might be expecting too much too soon for him to have it outside?

100% agree with tk here... You need to have the look cue very strong before you try it for real, and you absolutely must give him distance to practise at when you start exposure to other dogs.
Also, I wouldn't attach so much significance to his reaction to one dog that happened to be female... You're going to need more statistical significance than that! My guess is that this isn't actually related to the sex of the other dog.
I'd deal with the cyclist and runner issue exactly the same way. Get the look cue established, then start working with him at a distance, gradually closing that distance as he demonstrates his ability to cope at each distance.
I'd be tempted to try a squeaky ball as his reinforcement (and food) to tap into that hunter side of his brain? Read what I wrote about how to teach a focus-on-me cue using a ball, squeaky or otherwise.
Don't panic! You need to put more time into building foundations. At the same time, for now, try to avoid dogs for the next couple of weeks, or at least, head for places where you can easily gain distance before proximity becomes a problem.

Sheepdish1

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Well, as it happens, we are getting a second dog next year, but I would prefer to have this issue solved by then, rather than waiting for that to fix it. And anyway, I don't think a second dog will solve this particular issue ...

... so ... we went out again today. Did the whole 'look' thing. In the house, then outside the house. Grand. The minute we hit the canal and he started sniffing there was just no getting his attention. He had a total one track mind.

We encountered one dog only on the walk. I was calmer this time and gave him a looser lead and was trying to coax him onward with the treat, but he was hyper as hell to get over to the other dog. He didn't bark this time, but was very excited. I asked the owner if her dog was male or female. She said female. After they had gone he sniffed and sniffed the ground where she was standing like crazy, dug in his little heels and it was really hard to move him on...

I think I have my answer. He's going to have to be neutered anyway (it's in our contract) so may as well now I suppose. I know it won't solve everything.

Here's a strange one though. He does have a fascination with bikes. He likes to chase them if he could get away with it. It's part of the breed I guess - anything that moves quick is like a lure to him. He can be the same with runners. But, on the way home today there was a cyclist stopped at the lights. He was fascinated with her, staring. She responded by leaning over her bike and speaking to him, calling him cute. There was a whole footpath's distance between them, so she didn't invade his space or anything, and he just started barking away at her and sort of lunging. Now, what the hell is that? He doesn't usually bark at people. Is it like a sexual frustration maybe? Something in him from the encounter 15mins previously with the female dog?

The stress!

With regards to the neutering.....This won't be a quick fix so I would echo what above posters have said in trying to work on the behaviour first and not pin the decision on how he is behaving.

I'm sure neutering will not be a quick fix as it does take months for the testosterone to reduce as far as I am aware....I am not a vet so I comment on neutering with caution but there is info on other sites that I want to look up pros and cons to try and get a better understanding of this. I would guess he could be slightly more distracted around unneutured dogs because he isn't neutered.

I also agree with above posters that the cue needs to be reliable in am area with little or no distractions and then very gradually increase the distractions. It needs to be done at a pace that your dog is doing them reliably with few distractions and then gradually build up to situations where there is more distractions. This is where I felt talking to a trainer could be beneficial for you. You could also be given tips on lose lead walking and other things to get dog more focused on you in certain situations.

If he is a sighthound he will be drawn towards looking at fast moving things as this will be a trait of his breed. I wouldn't worry about the cyclist today. Maybe he just never saw one stopped beside him and was excited because it did something different

Sheepdish1

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Get another dog for him to have as a mate.

I don't think this would be good idea just yet, I agree that it would be good to work on the dog you have first