Additional Water Heater With Immersion

Draco

I'm an owner-occupier in an apartment with a small immersion tank (a Coppercraft 42"x15") and a shower with a sunflower head and a normal shower head.

My first problem is that the tank just about holds enough water for 2 people to have showers with the normal head or one person to have a shower with the sunflower. After the showers there's little/no water for washing up etc.

The next problem is that the "boost" function of immersion provides very little hot water and barely does for a very quick shower.

We do need to get a new pump for the shower replaced anyway as it doesn't supply enough pressure to start the shower - you just have to run the sink tap for a second to get it going (a lingering issue that I've been too lazy get get fixed for the last 3 years and I'm finally getting around to sorting).

So my questions are:
1) Who can I even go and have a conversation about the above and get advice?
2) Would an additional "instant" water heater be the solution here or am I better off having the tank replaced with a larger one?
3) Is there such a thing as a combo water-heater/pump?

coylemj

Is there only one element in the immersion - do you have a sink/bath switch?

All the 'boost' button does is to switch on the element for a set period and then switches off, it's a convenience to avoid leaving it set on permanently.

Draco

There's 2 and the boost only turns on the top one. Ideally I'd like a sink/bath option i.e. turn on one or both.

I went into Heat Merchants in Sandyford to ask and they pretty much suggested I need a bigger tank and a second switch.

coylemj

Draco wrote: »

There's 2 and the boost only turns on the top one.

There's two of what? What is the 'top one'?

Sorry but that answer is clear as mud.

K.Flyer

coylemj wrote: »

There's two of what? What is the 'top one'?

Sorry but that answer is clear as mud.

It's perfectly understandable if you are familiar with cylinders and side entry immersion heaters.

K.Flyer

Draco wrote: »

So my questions are:
1) Who can I even go and have a conversation about the above and get advice?
2) Would an additional "instant" water heater be the solution here or am I better off having the tank replaced with a larger one?
3) Is there such a thing as a combo water-heater/pump?

As its 15" wide is it a tight fit or is there room for a wider and taller cylinder?

Suppliers can only work on information given to them. The default answer to wanting more hot water is to get a larger capacity cylinder.
Better to get a Plumber out to work out sizing options.

You could get a cylinder made to spec and position the heaters with the top one a bit closer to mid point or even lower if you prefer.

A decent time clock with a separate boost button would help further.

No pump available of like you ask, unless you consider something like a T.90 instant shower.

Can you post a picture of the current cylinder set up?

coylemj

Draco wrote: »

There's 2 and the boost only turns on the top one. Ideally I'd like a sink/bath option i.e. turn on one or both.

A sink/bath switch will only activate one element at a time, the electric circuit wouldn't be able to handle the combined load. Even if you could heat both elements at the same time, it would only speed up the heating, it would not increase the volume of hot water.

Draco wrote: »

I went into Heat Merchants in Sandyford to ask and they pretty much suggested I need a bigger tank and a second switch.

One thing to consider before spending any money is the thermostat setting, it may be possible to raise the setting which would mean a person having a shower would use a smaller volume of hot water (because they'd have the mixer set to run more cold water) so you'd get more showers for the same volume of hot water. When you run the hot tap in the bathroom sink, is the water hot or very hot to the touch?

In the Kingspan range, your 42 x 15 tank has a capacity of 105L, the next bigger tanks are both c. 120L and they are 36 X 18 (shorter and wider) which has a capacity of 122.5L and 48 X 15 (6 cms taller but the same diameter) rated at 119L. My (2018) tank is a Kingspan Copppercaft 36 X 18 though the Kingspan website now says they are called 'Kingspan Albion' but they look identical to my Kingspan Coppercraft tank.

John.G

That's a very good point re raising the thermostat set point as long as its below the hi limit stat (if fitted) trip point, probably 80/85C?, so say heat to 75C. 100 litres of water at 60c will give 166 litres at 40C but 100 litres at 75C will give 217 litres at 40C, so a increase of 51 litres or 30% for "nothing".

K.Flyer

John.G wrote: »

That's a very good point re raising the thermostat set point as long as its below the hi limit stat (if fitted) trip point, probably 80/85C?, so say heat to 75C. 100 litres of water at 60c will give 166 litres at 40C but 100 litres at 75C will give 217 litres at 40C, so a increase of 51 litres or 30% for "nothing".

By raising the water temperature to 75'C you hugely increase the risk of scalding and causing injury to a person in the event of an interruption with the cold supply, particularly during showering.
Plus, if the shower valve is fitted with a thermostatic controlled cartridge, at that temperature, it would most likely be set to shut down the flow of hot water through the valve to protect against scalding.

John.G

K.Flyer wrote: »

By raising the water temperature to 75'C you hugely increase the risk of scalding and causing injury to a person in the event of an interruption with the cold supply, particularly during showering.
Plus, if the shower valve is fitted with a thermostatic controlled cartridge, at that temperature, it would most likely be set to shut down the flow of hot water through the valve to protect against scalding.

I thought that would only happen if no cold water was available but its a good point, a anti scald valve will certainly operate with hot water at 80C as I've seen them on solar systems so perhaps it might be prudent to fit one of these and reduce the temperature to 50/55C as it leaves the cylinder.

John.G

K.Flyer wrote: »

By raising the water temperature to 75'C you hugely increase the risk of scalding and causing injury to a person in the event of an interruption with the cold supply, particularly during showering.
Plus, if the shower valve is fitted with a thermostatic controlled cartridge, at that temperature, it would most likely be set to shut down the flow of hot water through the valve to protect against scalding.

Had to replace the control stat in my daughter's 12 year old Ideal dual immersion
this morning.
There is no temperature scale on it but it does have a blob of silicone so indicative of factory set. I heated it up in a can of water and the cut in temp was 59C with a hysteresis of 8/9C giving a cut out at 67/68C.

K.Flyer

I was picking up a few spare ones recently and they were telling me that the factory was now making them with a max of 70'c and the blob of silicone was set at approx 60'c, so that more or less ties in with your results.

Draco

To close this off, the solution was simply a larger tank (1200x450) and better element. It's made a world of difference.