HRM-based running advice

GeekyMaestro

Hello there,

I've run 7 marathons or so over the past few years, including Belfast in May. I'm scheduled to do both the marathon de medoc on September 7th and Dublin on October 29th.

I've been running with a Garmin 235 for the past few years, and this year when I started training in earnest (Hal Higdon Novice), I focused on heart rate rather than pace - trying to keep training in zone 3 or low zone 4.

The marathon training went well and I got a PB in Belfast (4:18, avg pace: 9:35min/mile). Subsequent to that, training was going fantastically well - Strava was regularly telling me I had a new PB for 5k or 10k through-out June - I was flying!

Unfortunately, late in June I got a chest infection and couldn't run for about 2 weeks. I was a

What I've found since I've started again is that my heart rate is really high - for example, I did 6 miles this morning, but heart rate was showing as 5.2 even though I was only running at 9:40 pace. I even bought a chest strap in case it was just that the wrist based HRM was unreliable.

So my question is: if I want to be able to consistently run at 9:30 (or actually 9:20) pace but remain in zone 3 or low zone 4, how do I best train for that? Should I run at the heart rate I want to run at, or the pace I want to run at, or should I do one run of each?

My current training plan is something like 5-7-5-(14-20), so I was planning on doing the LSR (14-20) at heart rate zone 3 to 4.2, one of the 5 miles fast (4.2 to 5), and then run the other two however I happen to feel.

Any advice gratefully received, as I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

skyblue46

Rather than use zones could you give an idea of the actual heart rates? Based on the zones on Garmin you would seem to be training in zones which are too high...

GeekyMaestro

Sorry - so for example, today I did 5.5 miles at 9:32 mile/min average pace. Average heart rate was 164, with a maximum of 181. 20% of the time I was in zone 5, which is a heart rate of > 175. 64% of the time I was in zone 4, 156-174.

Going back to a random run in June, I did an 11 mile run at 9:28 mile/min average pace with an average heart rate of 161 (max: 177), but was in zone 4 (156-174) 91% of the time, and zone 5 0% of the time - which seemed more or less okay to me.

Am I just over doing pace? I've done about 650 miles so far this year, and feel relatively fit - my garmin reports my v02 max as being somewhere between 46 and 48.

skyblue46

GeekyMaestro wrote: »

Sorry - so for example, today I did 5.5 miles at 9:32 mile/min average pace. Average heart rate was 164, with a maximum of 181. 20% of the time I was in zone 5, which is a heart rate of > 175. 64% of the time I was in zone 4, 156-174.

Going back to a random run in June, I did an 11 mile run at 9:28 mile/min average pace with an average heart rate of 161 (max: 177), but was in zone 4 (156-174) 91% of the time, and zone 5 0% of the time - which seemed more or less okay to me.

Am I just over doing pace? I've done about 650 miles so far this year, and feel relatively fit - my garmin reports my v02 max as being somewhere between 46 and 48.

I'd say you are seriously overdoing paces. You are doing runs at or close to marathon pace. That doesn't give your aerobic system the chance to develop. I don't train by HR but I know that my easy runs rarely hit 2.0 on the Garmin HR zones. Easy run paces should be about 90 secs per mile slower than your marathon pace. This should account for at least 80% of your weeks running. Long runs should be at this pace too.

Dudda

Way to fast. A good rule of thumb is take your age from 180 and keep below that for your HR easy runs. Over time you're pace will increase if you keep at it and as your running at a lower HR you'll recover much faster. It will feel way to slow for the first few runs but after 2-3 weeks it will feel natural and you'll start getting faster at the same HR.

sassyj

How accurate are the metrics on Garmin, it's putting me in 5.overreaching for a lot of my runs, including the LSRs

Swashbuckler

sassyj wrote:

How accurate are the metrics on Garmin, it's putting me in 5.overreaching for a lot of my runs, including the LSRs

What are your recent race times and what is your pace/heart rate on your recent runs?

Dudda

sassyj wrote: »

How accurate are the metrics on Garmin, it's putting me in 5.overreaching for a lot of my runs, including the LSRs

I find it good. For me it gives me a 2.5 to 3.5 on a easy run, 4 to 4.5 or maybe a tiny bit more on a demanding track session and had a 5 today in a 10k race. Don't get 5 for a Parkrun. Long runs are similar to track session but no anerobic score. This could be just me but I find it works well.

Having said that I do try and keep my easy runs around a certain HR. 180 - your age and run at that.

sassyj

Swashbuckler wrote: »

What are your recent race times and what is your pace/heart rate on your recent runs?

I haven't raced since Feb, and didn't have the watch then. Was doing a 1.27 m 10mile

Did 13m yesterday, 2h10m, avg pace 10min miles, hr avg 154, but was max was 180

4.5m run earlier in the week , hr 152/175, put me at 4.6 aerobic, 8 mile Thursday, pace avg 9.45 hr 158/180. (Aged 44)

I defo need more sleep and am moving the mid week long run to Wednesday to rest for Saturday.

skyblue46

sassyj wrote: »

I haven't raced since Feb, and didn't have the watch then. Was doing a 1.27 m 10mile

Did 13m yesterday, 2h10m, avg pace 10min miles, hr avg 154, but was max was 180

4.5m run earlier in the week , hr 152/175, put me at 4.6 aerobic, 8 mile Thursday, pace avg 9.45 hr 158/180. (Aged 44)

I defo need more sleep and so move the mid week long run to Wed to rest for Saturday.

Based on that you should be doing easy runs somewhere north of 11 min miles, 12 for recovery runs. You're running too hard too often. Just ease it back.

sassyj

Yeah going to drop the pace down and see how it goes. Legs have felt like lead recently, this is obviously why! Injury coming into spring hasn't helped.

Thanks

GeekyMaestro

Skyblue46,

Thank you for your feedback and suggestions, after that, I tried ratcheting down the pace a bit and I feel a lot better. Before your advice, this was my last six runs:

Date Miles Pace (min/mile) Avg HR
10th 6.4 10:17 171
11th 6.3 11:04 161
21st 12.5 10:18 161
23rd 3.5 10:48 152
24th 5 9:04 165
25th 5.5 9:32 164

Since then, I've done this:

Date Miles Pace (min/mile) Avg HR
27th 14.1 10:36 156
30th 5.6 11:10 158
31st 6.6 11:00 149
1st 6.7 10:49 151
4th 18 11:52 156
6th 5.2 10:39 151

On the 30th, it was wet so I don't think I was getting accurate reading, but was trying to get the heart rate down around 150 and still be able to do a decent clip. I've found holding the pace slow to be quite difficult, usually I go off into my head and forget about the running, but since I need to keep adjusting pace to slow down, I can't quite do that.

My next goal, I guess is to be able to do 9:00 pace and sustain a heart rate of around 145 at that pace. I guess to do that, I just need to keep 80% of my running at a heart rate of 145, and use the other 20% for intervals?

Thanks,

skyblue46

I wouldn't worry about a decent clip or having a goal pace. Let the training bring results rather than setting random pace targets. Faster paces are not important for now if your priority is to build a better aerobic base. Yes it can be difficult to slow down enough just as it's hard for a right footed footballer to learn to use the left as well....but it really is worth it. Maybe only show distance and HR on your watch display and try to stay under 145.

Trampas

My easy runs be max 145 but I keep it mid 130’s

Threshold be max low 170’s but try and keep it mid 160’s to let it get close to near max at the end. Threshold be around 10 mile race pace.

Set alerts on watch a few beats below max to warm me.

Hardest part of hr training at the start is running easy runs slow but you get use to it and pace will increase overtime.

GeekyMaestro

Thanks for all of the advice - managed to improve PB by 12 minutes during Dublin Marathon, and by the end of training was running 9:45 miles at 145 HR.

What worked for me was to do long runs at ~145, one tempo run, one set of intervals and one recovery run a week.