Forced Penetration - Can women rape men?

ancapailldorcha

I came across this article on BBC News this morning:

BBC News wrote:

When a man has penetrative sex with a woman without her consent, that's rape. But what if a woman makes a man have penetrative sex with her, without his consent? That's not rape under the law of England and Wales, but the author of a new study of the phenomenon says perhaps it should be.

The article reports on a study from the University of Lancaster's law school where one of their researchers interviewed 30 men about their experiences.

It's great to see this being discussed. I don't know how common this is but according to the BBC:

BBC News wrote:

The most recent Crime Survey for England and Wales estimated that 1.3 million women and 695,000 men experienced domestic abuse in the last year.

I can't say this is something I spent a great deal of time thinking about. The 695,000 figure for men is surprising, not to mention some of the comments cited from Police officers towards the male victim of forced penetration in the first BBC article linked in this post. Hopefully, this will help shift attitudes and help victims of abuse get better support.

Silentcorner

I think it is a funny one, as the metoo movement picked up pace, I remember asking myself was there any incident in my past where I may have made a woman in my company uncomfortable, even unbeknownst to me, previous encounters were flashing across my memory...

Then for some reason I asked myself had I ever been in the company of a woman where she made me uncomfortable, and a flood of little incidents came back to me, in work, socially, two or three of these would have been very serious had it happened the other way around...we just dont think of ourselves as victims, I never felt threatened, in some cases I felt a little pity...if I or any man doesn't feel like a victim then are we victims...I think not, men and women are different and react differently to the inappropriate behaviour of others around us.

I don't know the answer to the question, it depends on the man, are woman capable of it, most certainly yes.

Reviews and Books Galore

Something important to think of is that most of the talk about rape and most of the statistics are not actually where there is forceful penetration.



The often cited 1 in 4 women are raped is quite dubious as one of the questions are 'Have you ever had sex when you did not want to?'



It sounds horrible, but, in reality, sometimes you have sex when you don't want to. If your girlfriend is in the mood and you are not, if she needs some TLC after a hard day at work, or if you turn her down and she is insecure. Or if you are afraid of scorning a woman you might go along with it.



So, in the above examples, then women can definetly rape men.



But, in forceful penetration, female rapists/pedophiles often use emotional tactics rather than force.

TheBoyConor

I would say it is so extremely rare that it is hardly worth legislating for.

And even if it did happen that a woman made a man have sex with her, realistically he won't be affected in any way as seriously as it if had been a traditional male on female rape. He is not at risk of an unwanted pregnancy and it is also very very unlikely he would have come to any significant physical harm. Completely different situations in reality.

H3llR4iser

Well, this should be more and more controversial as the definition of "rape" is likely to be broadening to surpass the limitation of "penetrative sex".

The most common "brushing off" I've heard is that a man can't be "raped" as he needs to be "hard" - which to me just highlights how ignorant most people are to the basic physiology of the "equipment". I've personally met an astounding, worrisome amount of women who simply thought a guy could "switch on" his willy on command - and that could similarly "keep it tucked away" no matter what.

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think it is a funny one, as the metoo movement picked up pace, I remember asking myself was there any incident in my past where I may have made a woman in my company uncomfortable, even unbeknownst to me, previous encounters were flashing across my memory...

The sentence above, on its own, is extremely troubling - essentially, what it says is that anyone could be just minding his own business and suddenly have his world completely turned upside down...because in 1998 he tried to kiss a girl from school at the end of the year party.

Silentcorner wrote: »

Then for some reason I asked myself had I ever been in the company of a woman where she made me uncomfortable, and a flood of little incidents came back to me, in work, socially, two or three of these would have been very serious had it happened the other way around...we just dont think of ourselves as victims, I never felt threatened, in some cases I felt a little pity...if I or any man doesn't feel like a victim then are we victims...I think not, men and women are different and react differently to the inappropriate behaviour of others around us.

I don't know the answer to the question, it depends on the man, are woman capable of it, most certainly yes.

It DOES happen more often than most guys will ever admit; In my case, it exclusively seems to happen whenever I am not single - an ex-girlfriend called it the "validation effect", as in other women being more attracted by a guy once another woman has sort of "approved" him by being his partner. I think she might have been onto something there.

But yeah, while not "threatening" it can be uncomfortable for a number of reasons - from actually having to reject somebody (it's unpleasant AND it does carry a bit of a stigma for a guy...too long to discuss in this post) to the fact that if you ever tell anybody, most likely the responses are "what an idiot! you should have taken the opportunity!" - this usually coming in absolutely equal measure from both male and female acquaintances

wakka12

I dont see how a woman could have the power to hold a man down and do that, except in some exceptional circumstances. Over 90% of women wouldnt have the power to do that to over 90% of men

https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/

eviltwin

A friend of mine told me a story about how he was at a party and passed out in a bedroom only to wake up to find a woman he didn't know and had never met giving him a blowjob.

I was shocked and called it for what it was - oral rape.

He laughed it off and said it was harmless, a lovely way to wake up, basically all the jokes. This same guy would have zero tolerance for any man who hassled a woman. Double standards but he's not alone. Most of the lads who heard the story think 'lucky bastard'. They don't see female on male sexual assault as serious as assault against women.

Fwiw I do believe men can be raped by a woman although it's more difficult due to the fact men have a better chance of fighting off an attacker. Things won't change until attitudes change and this idea that men welcome any kind of unsolicited sexual attention is dismissed for the rubbish it is.

Deagol

eviltwin wrote: »

A friend of mine told me a story about how he was at a party and passed out in a bedroom only to wake up to find a woman he didn't know and had never met giving him a blowjob.

I was shocked and called it for what it was - oral rape.

He laughed it off and said it was harmless, a lovely way to wake up, basically all the jokes. This same guy would have zero tolerance for any man who hassled a woman. Double standards but he's not alone. Most of the lads who heard the story think 'lucky bastard'. They don't see female on male sexual assault as serious as assault against women.

Fwiw I do believe men can be raped by a woman although it's more difficult due to the fact men have a better chance of fighting off an attacker. Things won't change until attitudes change and this idea that men welcome any kind of unsolicited sexual attention is dismissed for the rubbish it is.

For me at least, I would say a lot of the issue around rape /sexual harrasment is the power / physical element of it. I've had unwanted female attention a couple of times but because I know I'm strong enough to fight off any potential physical contact etc, it's not a serious worry and just a slight irritation.

On the other hand, I can imagine that the reverse situation in that a larger, more powerful man is giving unwanted attention to a lady, I can imagine that it's very frightening and intimidating.

My personal opinion is that any attempt to completely treat men and women identically is doomed as we are simply not the same. This is just one element of it. Whilst ideologically I agree that men and women should be equally horrified at situations as outlined above - I just find it hard to imagine that the vast majority of men will ever react much differently?

magic_murph

I think the main problem with this discussion is the use of the word rape. We are trying to categorise multiple scenarios with a single word where in reality the situation is just too broad.
This also goes for the women only situation were one word is attached to multiple different scenarios which doesn’t make sense

Reviews and Books Galore

Deagol wrote: »

For me at least, I would say a lot of the issue around rape /sexual harrasment is the power / physical element of it. I've had unwanted female attention a couple of times but because I know I'm strong enough to fight off any potential physical contact etc, it's not a serious worry and just a slight irritation.

On the other hand, I can imagine that the reverse situation in that a larger, more powerful man is giving unwanted attention to a lady, I can imagine that it's very frightening and intimidating.

A bottle to.the face has the same damage no.matter who throws it

I know the current narrative is that women are wilting flowers, but I would be careful about generalising women in this way.

WarpAsylum

eviltwin wrote: »

A friend of mine told me a story about how he was at a party and passed out in a bedroom only to wake up to find a woman he didn't know and had never met giving him a blowjob.

I was shocked and called it for what it was - oral rape.

He laughed it off and said it was harmless, a lovely way to wake up, basically all the jokes. This same guy would have zero tolerance for any man who hassled a woman. Double standards but he's not alone. Most of the lads who heard the story think 'lucky bastard'. They don't see female on male sexual assault as serious as assault against women.

Fwiw I do believe men can be raped by a woman although it's more difficult due to the fact men have a better chance of fighting off an attacker. Things won't change until attitudes change and this idea that men welcome any kind of unsolicited sexual attention is dismissed for the rubbish it is.

This kind of thing really gets on my nerves. A lot.

And it's always guys who comment that stupid South Park "niiiice" meme under articles about female teachers taking advantage of their male students.
WhErE wErE tEaChErS lIkE tHiS wHeN i WaS a KiD.
Idiots.

Probably the same type to pipe up "what about the men?" at every opportunity.

It's not about how "lucky" the kid was, it's about how heinous the crime of the teacher was.

astrofool

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

A bottle to.the face has the same damage no.matter who throws it

Not sure if being sarcastic, while weapons can be a leveller, an average male will be able to wield any weapon more effectively than any average female, higher strength, accuracy, stamina, mass all affect this, conversely a male will be more able to take any hit from a weapon and be more able to strike back, effectively, if men decided to band together and "take over", they couldn't be stopped (not saying that this should happen in any way at all, but it is our social and nurturing skills that prevent this scenario from occurring, ).

...Ghost...

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I would say it is so extremely rare that it is hardly worth legislating for.

And even if it did happen that a woman made a man have sex with her, realistically he won't be affected in any way as seriously as it if had been a traditional male on female rape. He is not at risk of an unwanted pregnancy and it is also very very unlikely he would have come to any significant physical harm. Completely different situations in reality.

If it happens ONCE, it's worth legislating for.

Are you a psychologist? I would be very interested to read your professional opinions as to why a man won't be affected as seriously as a woman.

The man is at risk if his rapist becomes pregnant. He is also at risk of a false allegation against him. He is at risk of losing a great deal of things (job, friends, family), as well as the kick in the balls which is that the law only views men as having the ability to commit rape. I put it to you that the psychological harm is far worse than bumps and bruises.

Reviews and Books Galore

astrofool wrote: »

Not sure if being sarcastic, while weapons can be a leveller, an average male will be able to wield any weapon more effectively than any average female, higher strength, accuracy, stamina, mass all affect this, conversely a male will be more able to take any hit from a weapon and be more able to strike back, effectively, if men decided to band together and "take over", they couldn't be stopped (not saying that this should happen in any way at all, but it is our social and nurturing skills that prevent this scenario from occurring, ).

I'm not sure what to say to this post.



A weapon often times level the playing field in regards to strenght as the human body only has a certain treshold of damage. E.G. A basebell bat to a kneecap doesn't require that much energy to cause damage, and a finger to the eye/throat has the same effect.



All I know is that I'm happy I spend most of my time around women so I don't see them as weak creatures.

...Ghost... wrote: »

If it happens ONCE, it's worth legislating for.

Are you a psychologist? I would be very interested to read your professional opinions as to why a man won't be affected as seriously as a woman.

The man is at risk if his rapist becomes pregnant. He is also at risk of a false allegation against him. He is at risk of losing a great deal of things (job, friends, family), as well as the kick in the balls which is that the law only views men as having the ability to commit rape. I put it to you that the psychological harm is far worse than bumps and bruises.

Yeah, Asia Argento most probably groomed and statuatory raped a 17 year old boy/man and she countered him by accusing him of rape.

...Ghost...

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Yeah, Asia Argento most probably groomed and statuatory raped a 17 year old boy/man and she countered him by accusing him of rape.

Interesting articles on that.
Sex with a minor, or statutory rape. The only "rape" a woman can be accused of. The argument put forward is that a woman can't rape a man, because there is no penetration by the woman. At the same time, a woman can rape a minor, even though she has not penetrated him. There is no consistency here.

At one time, I would have held the view that a woman could not rape a man. "Sure, men are stronger", "there can't be sex unless the man is turned on" yada yada.

After considered thought, I realised that it's not about who has the penis, but who has control. They always say rape is not about sex, but about control. Ms Argento would seem to have been the one in control and the law in Cali was broken. The annoying part is that if the genders were reversed, we know the discussion would not be about a civil case, but a criminal one.

markpb

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And even if it did happen that a woman made a man have sex with her, realistically he won't be affected in any way as seriously as it if had been a traditional male on female rape. He is not at risk of an unwanted pregnancy and it is also very very unlikely he would have come to any significant physical harm. Completely different situations in reality.

That's not true at all. If you were raped as man:
- she could end up pregnant and I'm not sure the law would excuse you from your responsibilities
- she could have an STD which you will now have to live with, possibly forever, ruining your changes of future, healthy sexual relationships and the ability to safely have children
- your confidence would be shaken, making it harder to trust people in future and possibly ruining your chances of future, trusting relationships.

tritium

It actually appears to be remarkably common. The CDC surveyed sexual violence in the US a few years back and the forced to penetrate category ( tucked away in the back) was on a similar scale as the female rate of reporting rape. Time did a good article on the study

https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

iptba

H3llR4iser wrote: »

It DOES happen more often than most guys will ever admit; In my case, it exclusively seems to happen whenever I am not single - an ex-girlfriend called it the "validation effect", as in other women being more attracted by a guy once another woman has sort of "approved" him by being his partner. I think she might have been onto something there.

Going off-topic, I believe I read about research to back up this observation [i.e. about attraction].

italodisco

Years ago a 1 night stand decided to slip her finger right up my back door, like proper all the way. I was not impressed

Imagine i went to the local cop shop and reported it, because im a bloke they would have laughed me out of it

Feisar

italodisco wrote: »

Years ago a 1 night stand decided to slip her finger right up my back door, like proper all the way. I was not impressed

Imagine i went to the local cop shop and reported it, because im a bloke they would have laughed me out of it

I accept your point so please don't see my comments as a counter argument.

What does someone sign up for so when they engage in a ONS? Personally I have never gone through a list of do's and don't prior. Therefore someone may pull some moves that the other does not like. As long as they cease and desist when requested what's the harm?

Edit - obviously some actions require prior consent.

Church on Tuesday

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I would say it is so extremely rare that it is hardly worth legislating for.

And even if it did happen that a woman made a man have sex with her, realistically he won't be affected in any way as seriously as it if had been a traditional male on female rape. He is not at risk of an unwanted pregnancy and it is also very very unlikely he would have come to any significant physical harm. Completely different situations in reality.

Not really.

It can be just as emotionally damaging for men as it is for women, see domestic assault on men for examples of this.

Assault is assault.

Feisar

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Not really.

It can be just as emotionally damaging for men as it is for women, see domestic assault on men for examples of this.

Assault is assault.

Assault is assault however the consequences are not equal. Lets keep it among us men for a minute. I'm 35, got punched in the face more times than I care to remember, 6'3", well built, martial arts, MMA, been in my fair share of scraps. My brother is a millennial vegan type. In fairness a tough enough root in his own right however he would not have the same proven track record of being able to deal with trauma and keep moving forward. So if he got blind drunk and attacked me it would be very different if the rolls were reversed.

Feisar

Feisar wrote: »

I accept your point so please don't see my comments as a counter argument.

What does someone sign up for so when they engage in a ONS? Personally I have never gone through a list of do's and don't prior. Therefore someone may pull some moves that the other does not like. As long as they cease and desist when requested what's the harm?

Edit - obviously some actions require prior consent.

That's a fair point. What if she put his cock in her mouth, but he doesn't like blowjobs? Some men would love a finger up the rear..

Having sex with someone (especially a one night stand or first time encounter) is a new experience for both people figuring out each other. It'd be ludicrous to expect someone to know in advance, and then to expect to be able to bring a criminal case against them via the Gardai. :rolleyes:

Same as if a bloke tries his luck with some surprise anal on a girl. If she says no, that's grand, but if she says nothing and seems to be enjoying it, it's hardly fair you get a squad car outside the house the next day because she didn't enjoy that particular part of the encounter together but never bothered to mention it.