Changing training Solicitors during your training contract

Redo91

Hi,

I am a post PPC-1 trainee and I have a query about changing the firm you are training with during your traineeship.

Basically my main motivation for doing this is financial. I am on minimum wage at the minute and had thought that after my return from PPC-1 that my wages would increase. This is based on my interviews with other firms and two other training contracts I was offered who all said that my wages would go up incrementally as I progressed through my training. I had thought this was stated in writing until I saw my indentures but figured then it must be an unwritten rule of sorts.

Trainees at the large firms I was in Blackhall with were getting double what I am at PPC-1 stage and while working at those firms doesn’t interest me I would be hoping to get around €500 p/w as a trainee which I think would be possible at a mid-large sized firm.

Also when I was in Blackhall our Education rep canvassed the Law Society for a higher recommended wage. It is now the living wage but crucially they haven’t called it the minimum recommended wage so it’s not really worth the paper it’s written on. Even so I thought my firm would take this into consideration but despite making them aware of it they haven’t.

My firm don’t pay my fees so I’ve no idea how I’m going to afford the €4K for PPC-2. Also I’m commuting from Galway to my firm in the Midlands at a cost of €100 p/w which is a significant cost when I’m earning so little.

I have looked into it and it states on the law society website that if your training solicitor doesn’t agree to release you then you can apply to the Law Society and they can grant your release if you have sufficient reason for doing so. I have been keeping an eye on the legal vacancies on the law society website and have noted that some firms advertising for a trainee mention candidates at both pre and post PPC-1 so that is promising at least as I always thought that firms would only take on trainees before they went to Blackhall.

I want to remain in Galway so that limits my options to firms in Galway and Limerick largely.

Basically I’m looking for advice on how to approach applying when you are already training with a firm. I’m afraid to apply to a firm that have a good relationship with the partners at my firm in case they disclose my application and I burn all my bridges. Also I don’t know would it reflect badly on me that I am applying in the first place as the firms I would be applying to would certainly be places I would like to work for down the line and I don’t want to put them off.

Any advice from anyone who has done this before or knows anyone who has would be greatly appreciated. Apologies for the essay!

IsaacWunder

Plenty of people switch firms mid way. It’s common enough. However, people usually switch only because the place there in is an absolute hell hole, or or they come across a dream role in an area that they really want to work in and in an office where they will see themselves working post qualification. For example, they are training in a conveyancing focused firm run by ****, they realise they utterly hate conveyancing and don’t want to practise in it, and so they move to a firm that focuses on something else that they enjoy, and in an office they could see themselves staying long term.

Switching has to be weighed against the benefits of completing your training in one office, getting 2+ years experience under your belt in various seats, and demonstrating to future employers that you’re somebody that can commit to a role. Moving around a lot never looks great.

In that context, I must say your reasons for wanting to switch aren’t brilliant. I note that you are not saying that you hate the place that you are in, so it appears there is no real push factors. The pull factors are that you are looking for your fees to be paid for PPC2, and maybe an extra €150 a week salary, probably a bit less after tax, and a shorter commute.

In respect of fees, very few firms pay them. You can easily get a graduate loan, however. The two big banks will give you good rates and deals whereby you can defer payments at least for a few months while you are studying, maybe even up to when you qualify and are earning real money.

Regarding your current wage situation, maybe have a chat with the managing partner or whomever in your existing office deals with trainees and explain to them that you’re paying €100+ a week on commuting and that you’re finding it hard on minimum wage. They might agree to give you the money. They may not realise that you are struggling. They live in the same world as you, probably own a car, have kids, and understand the price of things. Hell, they might not want to lose you.

As to going back to Dublin, assuming you did it for PPC1, the commute to Dublin from the west would be difficult, but PPC2 is only four months, so it is not going to kill you, particularly when you will have the long summer evenings to look forward to, and won’t be getting home in the dark.

You have worked long and hard to get to where you are today, so focus on your ultimate goal: getting qualified in an area that you want to work in. Assuming you don’t want to stay there post qualification, which seems to be the case, finishing out your traineeship in your current office, and getting a good reference from them is your best option.

Redo91

IsaacWunder wrote: »

Plenty of people switch firms mid way. It’s common enough. However, people usually switch only because the place there in is an absolute hell hole, or or they come across a dream role in an area that they really want to work in and in an office where they will see themselves working post qualification. For example, they are training in a conveyancing focused firm run by ****, they realise they utterly hate conveyancing and don’t want to practise in it, and so they move to a firm that focuses on something else that they enjoy, and in an office they could see themselves staying long term.

Switching has to be weighed against the benefits of completing your training in one office, getting 2+ years experience under your belt in various seats, and demonstrating to future employers that you’re somebody that can commit to a role. Moving around a lot never looks great.

In that context, I must say your reasons for wanting to switch aren’t brilliant. I note that you are not saying that you hate the place that you are in, so it appears there is no real push factors. The pull factors are that you are looking for your fees to be paid for PPC2, and maybe an extra €150 a week salary, probably a bit less after tax, and a shorter commute.

In respect of fees, very few firms pay them. You can easily get a graduate loan, however. The two big banks will give you good rates and deals whereby you can defer payments at least for a few months while you are studying, maybe even up to when you qualify and are earning real money.

Regarding your current wage situation, maybe have a chat with the managing partner or whomever in your existing office deals with trainees and explain to them that you’re paying €100+ a week on commuting and that you’re finding it hard on minimum wage. They might agree to give you the money. They may not realise that you are struggling. They live in the same world as you, probably own a car, have kids, and understand the price of things. Hell, they might not want to lose you.

As to going back to Dublin, assuming you did it for PPC1, the commute to Dublin from the west would be difficult, but PPC2 is only four months, so it is not going to kill you, particularly when you will have the long summer evenings to look forward to, and won’t be getting home in the dark.

You have worked long and hard to get to where you are today, so focus on your ultimate goal: getting qualified in an area that you want to work in. Assuming you don’t want to stay there post qualification, which seems to be the case, finishing out your traineeship in your current office, and getting a good reference from them is your best option.

Thanks very much for taking the time to post and apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

It’s good to know it’s not that unusual to switch firms.

I appreciate what you mean about moving around and how it might not look great. That would be the main concern I have if I went looking and nothing ultimately came from it. The offices I would be contacting now would be the same ones I would be looking to work with post-qualification so I don’t want to give a bad impression by applying.

In saying that I was probably a bit diplomatic in my original post and the reasons for wanting to move. Yes the primary reason is financial and that was the initial issue that put the idea in my head. However, I am really unhappy working there and it’s not just because I am being paid so little.

Firstly, it is a very stressful office to work in. It’s a very busy practice but we are extremely under staffed. This has been flagged to the partners before but they just scoff and tell people to get on with it. The result is that in the last 12 months 2 members of staff have been out on sick leave with stress. That’s a significant number considering aside from the partners there’s only around 5/6 support staff.

The result is that the change over of staff is through the roof. The place is open since the mid-00’s but of the current staff all of us have been there less than 2 years.

They have unrealistic expectations of us. I got a snotty e-mail recently from one of the partners saying they haven’t been happy with me since I got back to Blackhall and at this stage of my training I should be nearing their level of productivity. Bearing in mind it’s their business and they are qualified over 20 years that was a crazy thing to suggest.

Everything is take, take, take with them. As well as paying very little they are so strict on annual leave. The office is closed this week and even though we don’t have the option to work it this week is still coming out of our annual leave. We also have 5 days for Christmas coming out. Therefore, we only have 11 days annual leave to take as we please. I know in most offices staff get 20 days plus whatever days the office is closed. They even had us in working Good Friday as it isn’t a bank holiday even though practically every other office in the country was closed.

I’m just not motivated to work for them. I’ve noticed myself a significant drop-off in my output since I came back from Blackhall. I know the more work I put in the more I would learn but I just can’t get myself out of 3rd or 4th gear. I’ve heard people say minimum wage equals minimum effort and while that wouldn’t be my motto there is certainly a bit of truth to it as I find its very hard to go bursting a gut for your employer when you are getting so little in return.

I’m also concerned about how long I would be stuck in the office post-qualication. I always keep an eye out on the job vacancies on the Law Society website (I don’t know of anywhere else that legal vacancies are advertised) and I notice that most places looking for a Solicitor require 2 years post-qualification experience. I’m struggling with the idea of seeing out my training contract so the thought of being stuck there for another two years after I qualify isn’t great. I sometimes do work for one of the partners at her PC and I inadvertently saw the wages of some of the staff on a post-it. A solicitor who trained with the firm and had left by the time I started was only on circa €500 p/w and she was at least a year qualified at that stage. Therefore, it’s not the case that I’ll be on decent money when I qualify there either. There are plenty of trainees that I was in Blackhall with earning that and more.

So basically I’m anxious that in light of the fact many firms look for 2 years post-qualification experience that this may be the best chance I have of moving to another firm for a few years at least.

I appreciate that a student loan would be an option but I’d be keen to avoid that if possible. Like I already said my money wouldn’t be great post-qualification either so it’s not like I would have that loan paid off any time quick.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.