Ageism

olestoepoke

I returned to school a few years ago at the ripe ol age of 40. Completed my leaving cert and went on to fetac and eventually university. I will be graduating next year. This year in college we were encouraged to apply for summer internships. I applied for pretty much any I could find, around 40 different companies. I'm studying accounting and finance. I did not get a call for one interview. My grades are slightly above average and I passed all of my exams first time. Many of my younger classmates were called for internships and Im confident my grades were higher than a lot of them. My cv contained work history that gave away my age. This is clearly ageism. My question is will I experience the same problems next year after graduation at the age of 45? Is there any advice from anyone who was in a similar situation on how I can make myself more appealing to employers despite my age?

MartyMcFly84

A lot of graduate roles are directed at younger people. They will often involve low pay and long hours. However there is considerable investment in training, and the company is looking to get a return on that investment.

One way around this would be to work in a finance related role in industry as opposed to a graduate specific role in a big 4. I know lots of people who got started in invoicing, credit control, treasury, accounts payable. Then from there went onto do the professional accountancy exams.

There is always more than one route to your goal.

olestoepoke

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

A lot of graduate roles are directed at younger people. They will often involve low pay and long hours. However there is considerable investment in training, and the company is looking to get a return on that investment.

One way around this would be to work in a finance related role in industry as opposed to a graduate specific role in a big 4. I know lots of people who got started in invoicing, credit control, treasury, accounts payable. Then from there went onto do the professional accountancy exams.

There is always more than one route to your goal.

Great advice. Much appreciated

heretothere

We had a trainee start with us when he was around 42, in a mid size country practice. I agree with trying to get in as accounts payable/ accounts receivable role it will at least be putting experience on your CV.

Where I started out (big firm in Dublin) they worked us stupidly hard, for tiny wages we often worked until midnight. They might be thinking that a person with more experience and possibly a family at home wouldn't put up with that. I don't think I'd put up with it now!

myshirt

heretothere wrote: »

We had a trainee start with us when he was around 42, in a mid size country practice. I agree with trying to get in as accounts payable/ accounts receivable role it will at least be putting experience on your CV.

Where I started out (big firm in Dublin) they worked us stupidly hard, for tiny wages we often worked until midnight. They might be thinking that a person with more experience and possibly a family at home wouldn't put up with that. I don't think I'd put up with it now!

That's correct. It might be wrong, but it is the reality.
We were hiring during 2008-2010, as were others, and a lot of the older applicants just couldn't cope with the fact they'd be working about 200 hours a month for 15 grand, or 18 if they were in Dublin. The younger applicants just bit down hard, toughed it out, and took a longer term view.

It's pretty much the same in Top 10 firms now, albeit you'll get 17 grand or 21 if in Dublin. There's a time to learn, and a time to earn. They work you hard. No time for someone who wants to be in at half 8 and out the door at half 5, and won't work during lunch or do a bit of weekend work if the client requires it.

Pay was a common topic in exam classes, but little does everyone know there was a point in time where YOU had to pay them for your training contract, and you are seeing that reemerge a bit in the UK. What was more common here for anyone who qualified before 2003-ish, you were paid less than you'd get on the dole. One of the lads I worked with got a job with PWC in 1996 on £7,500. 4 years of a degree and into a 7.5k job. But with a top firm.

olestoepoke

heretothere wrote: »

We had a trainee start with us when he was around 42, in a mid size country practice. I agree with trying to get in as accounts payable/ accounts receivable role it will at least be putting experience on your CV.

Where I started out (big firm in Dublin) they worked us stupidly hard, for tiny wages we often worked until midnight. They might be thinking that a person with more experience and possibly a family at home wouldn't put up with that. I don't think I'd put up with it now!

Thanks for the input. Im not averse to hard work but with young kids and a wife Im not really after a job with crazy hours. I was a carpenter for 25 years and the reason I went back to school was to change to a less physical job that would suit as I got older

olestoepoke

myshirt wrote: »

That's correct. It might be wrong, but it is the reality.
We were hiring during 2008-2010, as were others, and a lot of the older applicants just couldn't cope with the fact they'd be working about 200 hours a month for 15 grand, or 18 if they were in Dublin. The younger applicants just bit down hard, toughed it out, and took a longer term view.

It's pretty much the same in Top 10 firms now, albeit you'll get 17 grand or 21 if in Dublin. There's a time to learn, and a time to earn. They work you hard. No time for someone who wants to be in at half 8 and out the door at half 5, and won't work during lunch or do a bit of weekend work if the client requires it.

Pay was a common topic in exam classes, but little does everyone know there was a point in time where YOU had to pay them for your training contract, and you are seeing that reemerge a bit in the UK. What was more common here for anyone who qualified before 2003-ish, you were paid less than you'd get on the dole. One of the lads I worked with got a job with PWC in 1996 on £7,500. 4 years of a degree and into a 7.5k job. But with a top firm.

Thats crazy! They dont mention any of that on the milk round

MartyMcFly84

Part qualified accountant or Accounts Assistant in industry ranges from about 30 - 50k depending on experience and how far along you are in your exams.

It's also not the norm to do the crazy graduate hours as it is in some practices, but you have your month ends , year ends etc. It also exposes you to a wide range of financial functions, while the focus in practice for graduates would generally be auditing.

The training won't be on the same level and accountants from top 10 practice are always the most sought after. But at the end of the day you will sit the same exams and get to go home at a reasonable hour and start off on higher base salary. So it really depends on your goals.

As mentioned above its really more life stages rather than "Ageism". 22 year olds out of college might be living at home, probably don't have children and have likely never made more than minimum wage anyway, and have heaps of energy and drive.

While for someone in your position who has a family to support its a different kettle of fish.

I went back to night school doing ACCA exams at 32 and did the industry route and so far it is working out fine for me.

olestoepoke

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Part qualified accountant or Accounts Assistant in industry ranges from about 30 - 50k depending on experience and how far along you are in your exams.

It's also not the norm to do the crazy graduate hours as it is in some practices, but you have your month ends , year ends etc. It also exposes you to a wide range of financial functions, while the focus in practice for graduates would generally be auditing.

The training won't be on the same level and accountants from top 10 practice are always the most sought after. But at the end of the day you will sit the same exams and get to go home at a reasonable hour and start off on higher base salary. So it really depends on your goals.

As mentioned above its really more life stages rather than "Ageism". 22 year olds out of college might be living at home, probably don't have children and have likely never made more than minimum wage anyway, and have heaps of energy and drive.

While for someone in your position who has a family to support its a different kettle of fish.

I went back to night school doing ACCA exams at 32 and did the industry route and so far it is working out fine for me.

That's great to hear thank you.

Tombo2001

myshirt wrote: »

That's correct. It might be wrong, but it is the reality.
We were hiring during 2008-2010, as were others, and a lot of the older applicants just couldn't cope with the fact they'd be working about 200 hours a month for 15 grand, or 18 if they were in Dublin. The younger applicants just bit down hard, toughed it out, and took a longer term view.

It's pretty much the same in Top 10 firms now, albeit you'll get 17 grand or 21 if in Dublin. There's a time to learn, and a time to earn. They work you hard. No time for someone who wants to be in at half 8 and out the door at half 5, and won't work during lunch or do a bit of weekend work if the client requires it.

Pay was a common topic in exam classes, but little does everyone know there was a point in time where YOU had to pay them for your training contract, and you are seeing that reemerge a bit in the UK. What was more common here for anyone who qualified before 2003-ish, you were paid less than you'd get on the dole. One of the lads I worked with got a job with PWC in 1996 on £7,500. 4 years of a degree and into a 7.5k job. But with a top firm.

I wont do the FYP thing but I think what you mean is that the younger ones just toughed it out, and each evening went home to mammy and daddy who pay for their accomodation, their food, their bus fare.

€18k a year is fine if you only need it for disposable income.

The fact is that your graduate program could not work if the applicants werent subsidised by their parents. Not sure how proud a 'top firm' should be of that.....

Alan_007_

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The fact is that your graduate program could not work if the applicants werent subsidised by their parents.

Which is ridiculous that you can go through 4 years of college to work full time and still have to rely on your parents.

olestoepoke

Hi, just received an email regarding the "Milk Rounds". I googled what these were. What chance do I have of being hired during the milk rounds? I finished with a strong 2.1 every year thus far and was close to a 1st class honours last year. I am in my mid 40s and will be 46 when I graduate. Am I wasting my time with the milk rounds because of my age?

Jim2007

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hi, just received an email regarding the "Milk Rounds". I googled what these were. What chance do I have of being hired during the milk rounds? I finished with a strong 2.1 every year thus far and was close to a 1st class honours last year. I am in my mid 40s and will be 46 when I graduate. Am I wasting my time with the milk rounds because of my age?

Who knows for certain. It is unusual, but there is always the chance that someone with an open mind will give you a chance. If it was you want to do, then throw your hand in the ring, you can't win if your not in the game.

slinky9

I was in the same position as you. I worked in dead end admin jobs for years and at 34 I commenced a 4 year part time accounting degree. I graduated with a first and assumed it would be easy enough to get a job and I was prepared to take a low salary and start at the bottom like anyone else but I wasn’t even getting called for interviews purely because of my age and my college mates were the same. In the end I managed to get a trainee job with my old employer because I knew the hiring manager from my time there and my payroll experience helped.
There seems to be a lot of payroll and accounts payable jobs around at the minute so these are good places to start.
But Just keep trying. It took me and my 3 college mates months of trying and each getting numerous knock backs but after 5 months since finishing college all 4 of us now have accounting jobs so it can definitely be done.
We are all in industry if that makes any difference. Just for the record, not one practice offered me an interview, in fact out of about 15 I applied for, only one bothered to reply and that was a thanks but no thanks. Apparently I didn’t have the experience they were looking for which I found amusing

olestoepoke

slinky9 wrote: »

I was in the same position as you. I worked in dead end admin jobs for years and at 34 I commenced a 4 year part time accounting degree. I graduated with a first and assumed it would be easy enough to get a job and I was prepared to take a low salary and start at the bottom like anyone else but I wasn’t even getting called for interviews purely because of my age and my college mates were the same. In the end I managed to get a trainee job with my old employer because I knew the hiring manager from my time there and my payroll experience helped.
There seems to be a lot of payroll and accounts payable jobs around at the minute so these are good places to start.
But Just keep trying. It took me and my 3 college mates months of trying and each getting numerous knock backs but after 5 months since finishing college all 4 of us now have accounting jobs so it can definitely be done.
We are all in industry if that makes any difference. Just for the record, not one practice offered me an interview, in fact out of about 15 I applied for, only one bothered to reply and that was a thanks but no thanks. Apparently I didn’t have the experience they were looking for which I found amusing

Thank you for the comment. Great to hear you all were employed eventually. I'll definitely take note of what you said regarding industry jobs. Thanks again

baron von something

I was in a similar enough situation as yourself OP although a few years younger. I'll give you my experience.

By all means, apply away for the milkround but in my opinion it's a waste of time going for the milkrounds or for a position in a big4/top 10 firm. The industry is definitely Ageist. If you happen to get an interview, they'll take one look at you and just go through the motions. Those companies want people fresh out of nappies that will work all the hours under the sun who can't say no. I have a friend who secured a training contract last year with a Big 4 and she hates it. She says the culture stinks. It is expected of you to stay behind and work often until 11 at night and she can be away for weeks at a time anywhere in the country on audit assignments. Not ideal if you have a long commute or have a family. At 28 she also says she's the oldest trainee there by a good 6 years.

I have been told by a HR manager in Industry that most places are definitely ageist when it comes to graduates/trainees.

I had an interview with a top 10 firm and the interviewer kept asking me about my leaving cert. It didn't matter that I was about to complete my second Undergrad degree and was on course for a 1.1 . Says it all really

A person with more life experience like us are better suited to Industry or the Public Sector. It's definitely tough changing career paths and I spent 12 months applying and interviewing before I landed my training contract and to be honest I was just about to give up.

As we're on the bottom rung of the ladder, the money isn't great but that probably depends on where you're based. Accounting firms in my home town were only offering between 16-18K for graduates so I had to look to Dublin. I started on 25K year 1 and I'm about to bump to 30K year 2.

I'm working in the Public Sector and it suits me down to the ground. The company is great and its 9-5.30 mon-fri with no overtime although I do have a 4 hour daily commute.

Then there's the matter of which accounting body to get your qualification with. The main ones of course being ACA and ACCA. Some companies have stipulations which one they prefer and some don't mind which one you go for. Both have pros and cons.

With ACA you get the benefit of having structured lectures which you'll be used to from being at college, and most training firms will give you at least 6 weeks study leave for your exams. The downside is, you have to attend the lectures one evening a week and every second weekend. The exams are only held once a year and in my case I have to sit all 4 of my CAP2 exams in the one week.

Contrast to that, with ACCA you have the option of sitting exams a couple of times in the year and can sit as little as one exam per session. This flexibility is why most people in industry and mature students go this route. The downside is, its mostly down to self discipline to study as it isn't as structured as ACA, unless you enrol in an evening course at your own expense and from what I hear, you only get one study day leave per exam.

I hope this helps and good luck with it. You're not the only one doing it. Its definitely a long slog but it'll pay off in the end

olestoepoke

baron von something wrote: »

I was in a similar enough situation as yourself OP although a few years younger. I'll give you my experience.

By all means, apply away for the milkround but in my opinion it's a waste of time going for the milkrounds or for a position in a big4/top 10 firm. The industry is definitely Ageist. If you happen to get an interview, they'll take one look at you and just go through the motions. Those companies want people fresh out of nappies that will work all the hours under the sun who can't say no. I have a friend who secured a training contract last year with a Big 4 and she hates it. She says the culture stinks. It is expected of you to stay behind and work often until 11 at night and she can be away for weeks at a time anywhere in the country on audit assignments. Not ideal if you have a long commute or have a family. At 28 she also says she's the oldest trainee there by a good 6 years.

I have been told by a HR manager in Industry that most places are definitely ageist when it comes to graduates/trainees.

I had an interview with a top 10 firm and the interviewer kept asking me about my leaving cert. It didn't matter that I was about to complete my second Undergrad degree and was on course for a 1.1 . Says it all really

A person with more life experience like us are better suited to Industry or the Public Sector. It's definitely tough changing career paths and I spent 12 months applying and interviewing before I landed my training contract and to be honest I was just about to give up.

As we're on the bottom rung of the ladder, the money isn't great but that probably depends on where you're based. Accounting firms in my home town were only offering between 16-18K for graduates so I had to look to Dublin. I started on 25K year 1 and I'm about to bump to 30K year 2.

I'm working in the Public Sector and it suits me down to the ground. The company is great and its 9-5.30 mon-fri with no overtime although I do have a 4 hour daily commute.

Then there's the matter of which accounting body to get your qualification with. The main ones of course being ACA and ACCA. Some companies have stipulations which one they prefer and some don't mind which one you go for. Both have pros and cons.

With ACA you get the benefit of having structured lectures which you'll be used to from being at college, and most training firms will give you at least 6 weeks study leave for your exams. The downside is, you have to attend the lectures one evening a week and every second weekend. The exams are only held once a year and in my case I have to sit all 4 of my CAP2 exams in the one week.

Contrast to that, with ACCA you have the option of sitting exams a couple of times in the year and can sit as little as one exam per session. This flexibility is why most people in industry and mature students go this route. The downside is, its mostly down to self discipline to study as it isn't as structured as ACA, unless you enrol in an evening course at your own expense and from what I hear, you only get one study day leave per exam.

I hope this helps and good luck with it. You're not the only one doing it. Its definitely a long slog but it'll pay off in the end

A very insightful reply and is very much appreciated. Thank you

olestoepoke

Hey guys, So in my final year of university and currently experiencing the "milk rounds". I took part in a phone interview with Dalata that I felt went well. Three year training contract with a salary of Y1. 23k Y2. 25K and Y3 28k. Not great wages but I would take it to get the experience and ACCA qualification. I also received a call from CPA Ireland who requested my college transcripts and CV and explained the CPA route to me, they did mention that the companies they deal with the salary starts at 18k annually to 23k. So whats the difference between the accounting bodies? What are the advantages or disadvantages in going the CPA route? Any feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks

Jim2007

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hey guys, So in my final year of university and currently experiencing the "milk rounds". I took part in a phone interview with Dalata that I felt went well. Three year training contract with a salary of Y1. 23k Y2. 25K and Y3 28k. Not great wages but I would take it to get the experience and ACCA qualification. I also received a call from CPA Ireland who requested my college transcripts and CV and explained the CPA route to me, they did mention that the companies they deal with the salary starts at 18k annually to 23k. So whats the difference between the accounting bodies? What are the advantages or disadvantages in going the CPA route? Any feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks

Well my feedback would be that you are more likely to get good feedback if you post on a relevant thread - this one is about ageism, so will ignored by many. Start a new thread.

Turkish1

olestoepoke wrote: »

Hey guys, So in my final year of university and currently experiencing the "milk rounds". I took part in a phone interview with Dalata that I felt went well. Three year training contract with a salary of Y1. 23k Y2. 25K and Y3 28k. Not great wages but I would take it to get the experience and ACCA qualification. I also received a call from CPA Ireland who requested my college transcripts and CV and explained the CPA route to me, they did mention that the companies they deal with the salary starts at 18k annually to 23k. So whats the difference between the accounting bodies? What are the advantages or disadvantages in going the CPA route? Any feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks

From my experience a few points:
ACA - mostly people qualifying through practice take the ACA route although you will find small % of people within big4 do ACCA. Generally seems to be regarded as the 'best' qualification within Ireland.

ACCA - more flexible than ACCA. Tends to primarily be the route people in industry go. Very flexible in terms of progression and recently changed to 4 times a year sitting (previously 2 a year). Can sit from 1-4 exams per sitting. Most tend to do 1 or 2 as employers dont tend to give the extensive leave that practice give. More widely recognised than ACA worldwide so may be something to take note of should you intend travelling and working.

Have little detailed knowledge of CPA but would advise the ACA/ACCA route just purely down to tecognition.

Post training, you will find a number of desireable newly qualified jobs will look for 'Big 4 trained' as a requirement. Personally found thid somewhat frustrating back when I qualified 7/8 years ago, a sort of snobbery attached to that training (even though from my experience, industry trained/qualified accountants have far more relevant experience than auditors who are ticking boxes for 4 years - perhaps my own personal experience colouring this view).

Hopefully this helps somewhat.

olestoepoke

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well my feedback would be that you are more likely to get good feedback if you post on a relevant thread - this one is about ageism, so will ignored by many. Start a new thread.

My feedback to your comment would be that if you had went to the bother of reading the op and the rest of the thread in which I started the topic discussed is all about a mature student undergrad applying for a trainee accountant position and experiencing blatant ageism. Thank you for you contribution to that.

FRK81

Hi @olestoepoke

Did you apply to the recent graduate programmes in big 4 and other companies? did you get any positive responses? I am in a similar situation, I am 38 and want to move into Finance but have not been successful yet. However, I have only one exam left to complete the ACCA and was also able to get BSc Applied accounting (option available via ACCA). I did apply to some graduate programmes and also to a few jobs where some experience was required but have not been successful yet. I rarely find any jobs where no experience or 1 year experience is required. Most jobs generally required 2 or 3 years experience.

olestoepoke

FRK81 wrote: »

Hi @olestoepoke

Did you apply to the recent graduate programmes in big 4 and other companies? did you get any positive responses? I am in a similar situation, I am 38 and want to move into Finance but have not been successful yet. However, I have only one exam left to complete the ACCA and was also able to get BSc Applied accounting (option available via ACCA). I did apply to some graduate programmes and also to a few jobs where some experience was required but have not been successful yet. I rarely find any jobs where no experience or 1 year experience is required. Most jobs generally required 2 or 3 years experience.

I applied to all of the big 4 and most of the large companies. I applied to over 40 different places and was called for one interview. I've accepted it now that my age is a barrier and I'm going to focus on graduating with the highest grade I can and I'm sure the work end of things will sort itself out.

Richard Hillman

When I used to go to interviews you could physically see the interviewers face drop when they asked for my leaving cert results and I told them it was over 15 years since I did my leaving cert, that I'm in my 30s (I look young for my age). The whole interview would just change after that to disinterest. So I eventually gave up.

I fully understand their position. I'm not prepared to be doing ridiculously long days of 8am-8pm during busy times of the year, that a person in their early 20s would do.

Now I reckon I am getting passed over on low skilled jobs because I have my accountancy degree on my CV and they have notions of me leaving as soon an accountancy gig comes up. :pac:

olestoepoke

Richard Hillman wrote: »

When I used to go to interviews you could physically see the interviewers face drop when they asked for my leaving cert results and I told them it was over 15 years since I did my leaving cert, that I'm in my 30s (I look young for my age). The whole interview would just change after that to disinterest. So I eventually gave up.

I fully understand their position. I'm not prepared to be doing ridiculously long days of 8am-8pm during busy times of the year, that a person in their early 20s would do.

Now I reckon I am getting passed over on low skilled jobs because I have my accountancy degree on my CV and they have notions of me leaving as soon an accountancy gig comes up. :pac:

That's a point I never considered. Getting passed over because you have the degree is crazy.

Nika Bolokov

Is is it ageism or just realism on behalf of employers ?

The hours are long , they know older employees have responsibilities so they will be more likely to walk away.

Also your grads are your next generation , taking someone in in their late forties at the bottom needing 12 to 14 years before they'd be ready for Partner means they'd be pushing 60 which is when most Partners retire.

olestoepoke

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Is is it ageism or just realism on behalf of employers ?

The hours are long , they know older employees have responsibilities so they will be more likely to walk away.

Also your grads are your next generation , taking someone in in their late forties at the bottom needing 12 to 14 years before they'd be ready for Partner means they'd be pushing 60 which is when most Partners retire.

Yeah thats a good point and you're probably right. Although whatever way you colour it, not hiring someone because of their age is illegal.

TitianGerm

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I fully understand their position. I'm not prepared to be doing ridiculously long days of 8am-8pm during busy times of the year, that a person in their early 20s would do.

I work in a small practice and nearly everyone does 10-12 hours a day for the month leading up to IT deadline. You also do a few hours those weekends and work the October Bank Holiday as well. I'm in my early 30s but everyone else is in their 40s to 60s. Same in my aunt's office and was the same in my last practice. It's just the nature of the jobs.

Jim2007

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

The hours are long , they know older employees have responsibilities so they will be more likely to walk away.

Realism would be that the hours are long, older employees do have more responsibilities and are less likely to be able to find a new position easily, so the tend to be more reliable are like to look after their job where as young person, without responsibilities and more marketable so there far more flighty.

sharky86

I’m on the slightly older side of the intake this year been mid thirties. The money or the hours thankfully are not a problem but IMO the hard part of the change in mindset. Going from a role I was confident in to a position where I need constant “mothering” as everything is new is the challenge.

Although the not expected to know things it would be nice to eventually get to a position of been able to work independently.

olestoepoke

sharky86 wrote: »

I’m on the slightly older side of the intake this year been mid thirties. The money or the hours thankfully are not a problem but IMO the hard part of the change in mindset. Going from a role I was confident in to a position where I need constant “mothering” as everything is new is the challenge.

Although the not expected to know things it would be nice to eventually get to a position of been able to work independently.

So it is true that the real learning begins after university. I'm sure it will get easier the harder you work like all challenges.

Jim2007

olestoepoke wrote: »

So it is true that the real learning begins after university. I'm sure it will get easier the harder you work like all challenges.

Of course it is true, it takes a couple of years after college before you are worth anything to an employer.

I'ver supervised both accounting and computer science graduates and while they have the theory it takes years to learn how to deliver it professionally.

sharky86

Jim2007 wrote: »

Of course it is true, it takes a couple of years after college before you are worth anything to an employer.

I'ver supervised both accounting and computer science graduates and while they have the theory it takes years to learn how to deliver it professionally.

As someone who has supervised grads, do you have any suggestions on how to speed up the process

Jim2007

sharky86 wrote: »

As someone who has supervised grads, do you have any suggestions on how to speed up the process

Nope. And I think need to understand that working independently is not a think in practice and in particular audit. Your work will always be well supervised, because getting it wrong can be a very public affair especially if you work for a big 4. Remember every partner is liable for the debts of the partnership and while other work is done under limited liability, audit is not. And when the owners are personally liable it creates a very different atmosphere.