Accountancy Conversion Course

howareyakid

I'm currently looking into one year accountancy conversion courses which are offered in DIT, GMIT and UL. I don't have any background in business and accounting and my undergrad was in education. If there's anyone who has completed such courses in the past or anyone working in accountancy who could shed any light on the course/profession, I would be grateful for any information you may have!

spurious

Moved at OP's request (from Postgraduates).

howareyakid

howareyakid wrote: »

I'm currently looking into one year accountancy conversion courses which are offered in DIT, GMIT and UL. I don't have any background in business and accounting and my undergrad was in education. If there's anyone who has completed such courses in the past or anyone working in accountancy who could shed any light on the course/profession, I would be grateful for any information you may have!

What's your plan re the accounting profession?


What exemptions (if any) does the conversion course offer?


Or is the conversion course your terminal education goal re accountancy?



Accountancy is one of the most open professions you can enter and the professional exams are direct entry or after exemptions (usually relevant degree or similar).

howareyakid

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's your plan re the accounting profession?


What exemptions (if any) does the conversion course offer?


Or is the conversion course your terminal education goal re accountancy?



Accountancy is one of the most open professions you can enter and the professional exams are direct entry or after exemptions (usually relevant degree or similar).

These courses seem to offer CAP1 exemptions. Don’t really have a plan, it just appeals for probably how open it is and seems to be the type of profession that you can have success at with good application to exams etc.

howareyakid

howareyakid wrote: »

These courses seem to offer CAP1 exemptions. Don’t really have a plan, it just appeals for probably how open it is and seems to be the type of profession that you can have success at with good application to exams etc.

Accountancy is a great profession. It opens up huge doors in accountancy, finance, and management in practically all fields.



However, I'd be worried after doing an education degree that entering another field without greater thought might be a mistake. Just because it's open doesn't mean it's for you. Do a career evaluation at least.



Good luck.

Elemonator

May I suggest the MSc in Management (Business) in Dublin City University? It offers up to 8 exemptions for CIMA if that was the accounting body you chose to qualify with, with a broad based degree in management which would be helpful if you entered a managerial role or deciding you didn't like accounting. DCU has a triple accreditation which only 5% of business schools achieve according to their website and that course is placed in the top 100 in the world for management.

Best of luck with it OP, its something I'm considering as well.

Jim2007

howareyakid wrote: »

These courses seem to offer CAP1 exemptions. Don’t really have a plan, it just appeals for probably how open it is and seems to be the type of profession that you can have success at with good application to exams etc.

I can help but feel you have the wrong impression of the accounting profession. While entry is open to all, it is a very exacting profession, the client does not pay you to get it almost right, they expect you to get it right every time and the exams are set accordingly. And there is not much tolerance of failure.

For a start to land a good training position with a top firm you'll need to have a 2.1 honours degree and there after you'll be expected to pass the exams first time while holding down a heavy work schedule...

The other think to keep in mind is that this is a profession not a job, people will tell you a lot of confidential information and your character will come into play in both the recruitment and your progress through the firm. So if your a good time Charlie, a gambler etc....you'll find that you are quickly sidelined.

I attended many milk rounds when I worked in the profession and of course there was lots of booze available, but the only ones slurping it down were the graduates... the partners, managers, consultants and audit seniors were all nursing the one drink for the night. And the heavy boozers were noted... the last thing you need is someone who will get pi**ed on Friday night and mouth off client information.

It is a lot more than exams and I'd be hesitant to suggest you go ahead based on what you have posted so far on the topic.

fishy_fishy

Okay, so I did a PDA and can offer you my experience and some information about them. I've also been biased but factual in the information because I can't be unbiased - my own opinion is that the PDA is the best way to go if you want to do a training contract.

Syllabus
The one I did offered full CAP1 exemptions, a lot of ACCA exemptions and some CIMA exemptions. The other important thing to note about it is that the syllabus (at least on the one I did) extended well beyond CAP1 and left everyone VERY well placed going into CAP2 and FAEs. Every single person in my firm who was on my PDA course passed all their CAP2 and FAE exams first go.

Training contracts
The PDAs really are aimed at people intending to pursue a training contract, particularly those going down the chartered route. There are 5 types of training contract & exam combinations that tend to exist:

School Leavers:
5 year contracts for school leavers.
Exams: they do the technician qualification and then the chartered exams. Rare enough these days.

Non-relevant Graduates:
3.5 year contracts,
Exams: you have to do CAP1 (first year of contract), CAP2 (second year of contract) and FAEs (third year of contract).
Two things I would note about this are firstly, the firm gets 4 mandatory busy seasons out of you on unqualified salary, and secondly, you'll be sitting your FAEs in the 3rd year of your contract. That's straight up harder than sitting them in your 2nd year of your contract. If you're interested in going into tax, a lot of firms won't offer tax training contracts without exemptions because the exam load would be too high with 3 sets of chartered exams and parts 2 and 3 of the CTA qualification.

Relevant Graduates:
3.5 year contracts for people who have full or partial CAP1 contracts.
Exams: With full CAP1 exemptions, you sit CAP2 in first year and FAE in second year.
So, has the benefit of doing FAEs in 2nd year but the firm still gets 4 busy seasons at unqualified salary from you.

PDA Graduates:
3 year contract with full CAP1 exemptions.
Exams: CAP2 in 1st year and FAE in 2nd year.
If you decide to stay on after 3 busy seasons it's on qualified wages, and you have the choice to leave and not go through a 4th busy season. Has a very heavy focus on competency in DEBK, which aligns with CAI focus.

MAcc Graduates:
3 year contract with full CAP1 and CAP2 exemptions.
Exams: Nothing in first year, FAE in 2nd year.
The benefit is only one set of exams - plenty of time to build up TOIL to take lots of study leave for FAEs, but the time between covering CAP1/2 level material (may have been in 1st year undergrad) to sitting FAEs can be up to 5/6 years, and the first time sitting a chartered exam is the AAFRP (continuous assessment exam, worth 15% of the final mark for FAE core) and it really matters. Some people struggle with that pressure, whereas it's like water off a duck's back for others.

Life in a training contract
Tbh, I can't see much point in doing a PDA without intending to go into a training contract, so I'll give you a bit of my experience from a training contract. I'm not going to lie - it can be rough and the horror stories are out there, but that's not the whole picture. I'm big 4 so obviously what I'm saying here is from a Big 4 perspective, perhaps someone can weigh in on medium/smaller firm experience.

- Money is piss poor going in (mid 20ks at the moment), but it rises quickly enough and good performance and passing exams is heavily rewarded (by the time your'e in your 3rd year, there can be around a 10k difference between poor performance and failed exams and excellent performance with passed exams). By the end of training contract it's in the 40ks. Around a 5k tax free bonus if you pass your FAEs first time.

- Morale can get very, very low but with study leave, a lot of the summer is spent on leave (esp if you have more than 1 set of exams to do)

- Social scene is good. Tbf, the firms tend to have big parties for summer and christmas, plus smaller parties for departments throughout the year. Teams have their own nights out, exam success parties, welcoming new joiner parties etc etc. These parties tend to include plenty of food and drink on the firm's tab.

- Workload: it's high. I've more time off in lieu built up than I can possibly take. There's also a culture where there's no punishment too severe for doing a good job. They call it a "great learning opportunity" when landing a complete mess on you.

- Colleagues: firms are very young and have large intakes of graduates. Everyone tends to end up with a large circle of friends, and people get quite close (going through the stresses of exams and busy seasons together, and the highs of exam success and holidays together seems to bond people). When the going gets tough, to be fair, you will have a great support network.

- Learning support: big 4 put a lot of resources into ensuring you get through exams. Having a high pass rate is a selling point they won't let go of, so they pour a lot of effort into running exam support sessions, bringing in great tutors and making sure people get enough study leave.

- Wash out rate: there's always this discussion online about the pressure getting to people and there being a massive washout rate from big 4. Honestly, it's a myth. Initially there'll be a couple of people who leave early in the contract - same as any large graduate intake. People realise that it's not for them and move on. After the first couple of months, there'll be one or two who fail exams and the repeats and so get fired. Other than that, nope. Wash out rate is a myth.

- Career progression: there's two parts to this. Within a training contract, big firms will all get you exposure to large and prestigious clients. They also allow people room to "act up" and ambition is rewarded. Externally, a lot of jobs, particularly in large organisations, will list big 4 experience as required/desirable. Senior staff within the firms tend to have fantastic networks and will often let staff know if they hear of opportunities that might suit them. These jobs of course, aren't out of reach of people in other firms or who go through other routes, but it chartered and big 4 are I suppose nice to have on the CV.

So with all that, if you are looking to go into an accountancy firm, and you have the resources to do the PDA (it is full time for a year) I would strongly encourage you to go down the PDA route. In terms of what people actually tend to do after the PDA I'd say 95% of the people on the course went straight into Big 4 + GT/BDO contracts afterwards. That's essentially what the courses are aimed at.

If I've missed something, just ask and I'll try to answer (or someone else might be able to come along and help to answer).

Jim2007

Jim2007 wrote: »

I can help but feel you have the wrong impression of the accounting profession. While entry is open to all, it is a very exacting profession, the client does not pay you to get it almost right, they expect you to get it right every time and the exams are set accordingly. And there is not much tolerance of failure.

For a start to land a good training position with a top firm you'll need to have a 2.1 honours degree and there after you'll be expected to pass the exams first time while holding down a heavy work schedule...

The other think to keep in mind is that this is a profession not a job, people will tell you a lot of confidential information and your character will come into play in both the recruitment and your progress through the firm. So if your a good time Charlie, a gambler etc....you'll find that you are quickly sidelined.

I attended many milk rounds when I worked in the profession and of course there was lots of booze available, but the only ones slurping it down were the graduates... the partners, managers, consultants and audit seniors were all nursing the one drink for the night. And the heavy boozers were noted... the last thing you need is someone who will get pi**ed on Friday night and mouth off client information.

It is a lot more than exams and I'd be hesitant to suggest you go ahead based on what you have posted so far on the topic.

All this reminds me of the two years I spent working in practice, which was the stereotypical route for accountants. Most accountants work in industry. Quite a number don't even start out in practice now.

howareyakid

Jim2007 wrote: »

I can help but feel you have the wrong impression of the accounting profession. While entry is open to all, it is a very exacting profession, the client does not pay you to get it almost right, they expect you to get it right every time and the exams are set accordingly. And there is not much tolerance of failure.

For a start to land a good training position with a top firm you'll need to have a 2.1 honours degree and there after you'll be expected to pass the exams first time while holding down a heavy work schedule...

The other think to keep in mind is that this is a profession not a job, people will tell you a lot of confidential information and your character will come into play in both the recruitment and your progress through the firm. So if your a good time Charlie, a gambler etc....you'll find that you are quickly sidelined.

I attended many milk rounds when I worked in the profession and of course there was lots of booze available, but the only ones slurping it down were the graduates... the partners, managers, consultants and audit seniors were all nursing the one drink for the night. And the heavy boozers were noted... the last thing you need is someone who will get pi**ed on Friday night and mouth off client information.

It is a lot more than exams and I'd be hesitant to suggest you go ahead based on what you have posted so far on the topic.

Thanks for the advice. Obviously I know there’s more to it than exams, and if I do go down that route, I wouldn’t be expecting it to be all plain sailing.

howareyakid

fishy_fishy wrote: »

Okay, so I did a PDA and can offer you my experience and some information about them. I've also been biased but factual in the information because I can't be unbiased - my own opinion is that the PDA is the best way to go if you want to do a training contract.

Syllabus
The one I did offered full CAP1 exemptions, a lot of ACCA exemptions and some CIMA exemptions. The other important thing to note about it is that the syllabus (at least on the one I did) extended well beyond CAP1 and left everyone VERY well placed going into CAP2 and FAEs. Every single person in my firm who was on my PDA course passed all their CAP2 and FAE exams first go.

Training contracts
The PDAs really are aimed at people intending to pursue a training contract, particularly those going down the chartered route. There are 5 types of training contract & exam combinations that tend to exist:

School Leavers:
5 year contracts for school leavers.
Exams: they do the technician qualification and then the chartered exams. Rare enough these days.

Non-relevant Graduates:
3.5 year contracts,
Exams: you have to do CAP1 (first year of contract), CAP2 (second year of contract) and FAEs (third year of contract).
Two things I would note about this are firstly, the firm gets 4 mandatory busy seasons out of you on unqualified salary, and secondly, you'll be sitting your FAEs in the 3rd year of your contract. That's straight up harder than sitting them in your 2nd year of your contract. If you're interested in going into tax, a lot of firms won't offer tax training contracts without exemptions because the exam load would be too high with 3 sets of chartered exams and parts 2 and 3 of the CTA qualification.

Relevant Graduates:
3.5 year contracts for people who have full or partial CAP1 contracts.
Exams: With full CAP1 exemptions, you sit CAP2 in first year and FAE in second year.
So, has the benefit of doing FAEs in 2nd year but the firm still gets 4 busy seasons at unqualified salary from you.

PDA Graduates:
3 year contract with full CAP1 exemptions.
Exams: CAP2 in 1st year and FAE in 2nd year.
If you decide to stay on after 3 busy seasons it's on qualified wages, and you have the choice to leave and not go through a 4th busy season. Has a very heavy focus on competency in DEBK, which aligns with CAI focus.

MAcc Graduates:
3 year contract with full CAP1 and CAP2 exemptions.
Exams: Nothing in first year, FAE in 2nd year.
The benefit is only one set of exams - plenty of time to build up TOIL to take lots of study leave for FAEs, but the time between covering CAP1/2 level material (may have been in 1st year undergrad) to sitting FAEs can be up to 5/6 years, and the first time sitting a chartered exam is the AAFRP (continuous assessment exam, worth 15% of the final mark for FAE core) and it really matters. Some people struggle with that pressure, whereas it's like water off a duck's back for others.

Life in a training contract
Tbh, I can't see much point in doing a PDA without intending to go into a training contract, so I'll give you a bit of my experience from a training contract. I'm not going to lie - it can be rough and the horror stories are out there, but that's not the whole picture. I'm big 4 so obviously what I'm saying here is from a Big 4 perspective, perhaps someone can weigh in on medium/smaller firm experience.

- Money is piss poor going in (mid 20ks at the moment), but it rises quickly enough and good performance and passing exams is heavily rewarded (by the time your'e in your 3rd year, there can be around a 10k difference between poor performance and failed exams and excellent performance with passed exams). By the end of training contract it's in the 40ks. Around a 5k tax free bonus if you pass your FAEs first time.

- Morale can get very, very low but with study leave, a lot of the summer is spent on leave (esp if you have more than 1 set of exams to do)

- Social scene is good. Tbf, the firms tend to have big parties for summer and christmas, plus smaller parties for departments throughout the year. Teams have their own nights out, exam success parties, welcoming new joiner parties etc etc. These parties tend to include plenty of food and drink on the firm's tab.

- Workload: it's high. I've more time off in lieu built up than I can possibly take. There's also a culture where there's no punishment too severe for doing a good job. They call it a "great learning opportunity" when landing a complete mess on you.

- Colleagues: firms are very young and have large intakes of graduates. Everyone tends to end up with a large circle of friends, and people get quite close (going through the stresses of exams and busy seasons together, and the highs of exam success and holidays together seems to bond people). When the going gets tough, to be fair, you will have a great support network.

- Learning support: big 4 put a lot of resources into ensuring you get through exams. Having a high pass rate is a selling point they won't let go of, so they pour a lot of effort into running exam support sessions, bringing in great tutors and making sure people get enough study leave.

- Wash out rate: there's always this discussion online about the pressure getting to people and there being a massive washout rate from big 4. Honestly, it's a myth. Initially there'll be a couple of people who leave early in the contract - same as any large graduate intake. People realise that it's not for them and move on. After the first couple of months, there'll be one or two who fail exams and the repeats and so get fired. Other than that, nope. Wash out rate is a myth.

- Career progression: there's two parts to this. Within a training contract, big firms will all get you exposure to large and prestigious clients. They also allow people room to "act up" and ambition is rewarded. Externally, a lot of jobs, particularly in large organisations, will list big 4 experience as required/desirable. Senior staff within the firms tend to have fantastic networks and will often let staff know if they hear of opportunities that might suit them. These jobs of course, aren't out of reach of people in other firms or who go through other routes, but it chartered and big 4 are I suppose nice to have on the CV.

So with all that, if you are looking to go into an accountancy firm, and you have the resources to do the PDA (it is full time for a year) I would strongly encourage you to go down the PDA route. In terms of what people actually tend to do after the PDA I'd say 95% of the people on the course went straight into Big 4 + GT/BDO contracts afterwards. That's essentially what the courses are aimed at.

If I've missed something, just ask and I'll try to answer (or someone else might be able to come along and help to answer).

Thank you for the very detailed and comprehensive overview of the process. What would you consider to be the main skills needed to be successful in the profession?

fishy_fishy

howareyakid wrote: »

Thank you for the very detailed and comprehensive overview of the process. What would you consider to be the main skills needed to be successful in the profession?

Honestly it's mostly the same skillset as anywhere.

If you're diligent, methodical and mildly numerate you'd be fine. Maturity, a bit of cop on, and a little ambition and you'll stand out.

Do you want to be an accountant?
Your posts don't seem all that keen - just looking for a career.
It's not rocket science but equally it isn't for everybody.
There are mundane bits, interesting bits, stressful bits, responsible bits, fun bits.

Jobs will be very varied but can become routine. A big positive of my current job is that I am essentially my own boss and manage my own workload. That is also a big negative as I have to be around and can't ask someone else to cover for me. Holidays have to be well planned in advance.

howareyakid

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you want to be an accountant?
Your posts don't seem all that keen - just looking for a career.
It's not rocket science but equally it isn't for everybody.
There are mundane bits, interesting bits, stressful bits, responsible bits, fun bits.

Jobs will be very varied but can become routine. A big positive of my current job is that I am essentially my own boss and manage my own workload. That is also a big negative as I have to be around and can't ask someone else to cover for me. Holidays have to be well planned in advance.

Thanks for the insight. I wouldn’t say I always wanted to be an accountant but I feel like I need a change and converting to accountancy seems like it could be a good option for me. It seems like the type of career that’s possible to convert to and I think I would relish the challenge of it if I do go down that road.