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Army checking speed

  • 18-07-2019 10:11am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,638 ✭✭✭ mightyreds


    Just seen the army out with what looked like a speed gun on the n7.
    It didn't look like they were stopping just sitting on the flyover with the gun anyone know what that is?


Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    It's a speed check for their own vehicles which have their own (lower) limit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,638 ✭✭✭ mightyreds


    Cool thanks found it unusual when I noticed.
    What do they do then just note the reg and follow up later?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    I've come across a fair few army vehicles that tip along at a very fast pace. Have seen these checks before too. Pretty common on the M/N7 as you saw.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    mightyreds wrote: »
    Cool thanks found it unusual when I noticed.
    What do they do then just note the reg and follow up later?

    I've never seen them chase down and I suspect they wouldn't be allowed so presumably it's just dealt with later. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of however it is dealt with!


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,442 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    L1011 wrote: »
    It's a speed check for their own vehicles which have their own (lower) limit.
    is that a limit internal to the defence forces, or one written in law?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭ Stephen Gawking


    They can only check for vehicles registered to the defense forces, not civilian vehicles.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭ mikeym


    I presume whoever is driving the military vehicle and is caught speeding by the Military Police will be charged.

    Civilian motorists are not subject to Military Law.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 43,442 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    They can only check for vehicles registered to the defense forces, not civilian vehicles.
    understood, but it was the other way around i was asking.
    can the gardai pull over military vehicles exceeding military speed limits; i.e. are the speed limits in question purely internal to the military, or do the speed limits on military vehicles exist in general road legislation.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 61,787 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Its internal to the military, AGS can only pull them for breaking the civil speed limits. PA can't pull over a civilian at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    As L1011 stated it is internal to the Defence Forces only, however they can't lawfully pull over even a DF vehicle, anyone caught speeding is dealt with later.

    Here's a Tweet from a few years ago.

    https://twitter.com/defenceforces/status/594108650165272576?s=19


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    Yep seen them there a few times - presumably AGS agreed to let them use their "Garda Only" ramps.

    Valid point on one of the tweet replies though - would do AGS no harm to check their own occasionally as well. A lot of unmarked cars particularly completely take the piss, and not just in terms of speeding (something I've called AGS about before)


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,642 ✭✭✭✭ coylemj


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Valid point on one of the tweet replies though - would do AGS no harm to check their own occasionally as well. A lot of unmarked cars particularly completely take the piss, and not just in terms of speeding (something I've called AGS about before)

    Garda cars have a blanket exemption on speed limits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    coylemj wrote: »
    Garda cars have a blanket exemption on speed limits.

    They do and they don't. In the course of things like pursuits etc yes, but they're expected to obey the laws the same as everyone else otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,035 ✭✭✭ shanec1928


    coylemj wrote: »
    Garda cars have a blanket exemption on speed limits.
    must have an exemption on pulling into the left lane on motorways too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    They do and they don't. In the course of things like pursuits etc yes, but they're expected to obey the laws the same as everyone else otherwise.

    The law states they are exempt without qualifications like pursuits etc other than not putting others at danger, expectations are irrelevant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    shanec1928 wrote: »
    must have an exemption on pulling into the left lane on motorways too.

    They are exempt from all traffic and parking regulations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    GM228 wrote: »
    The law states they are exempt without qualifications like pursuits etc other than not putting others at danger, expectations are irrelevant.
    GM228 wrote: »
    They are exempt from all traffic and parking regulations.

    This article would suggest differently
    GARDAI who speed or break traffic lights in official vehicles have been warned they will have to prove they did so “in exceptional circumstances” – or face having penalty points applied to their licences.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    This article would suggest differently

    Read the law, not an article, S87 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 as amended:-
    Exemptions for emergency vehicles.

    87. — (1) Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2010 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49, 50, 51A, 52 and 53 of the Principal Act, sections 12, 13 and 15 of the Act of 1994 and sections 4, 5, 11, 12 and 14 of this Act, do not apply to —

    (a) the driving or use by a member of the Garda Síochána a, an ambulance service (provided by a pre-hospital emergency care service provider recognised by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council established by the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (Establishment) Order 2000 ( S.I. No. 109 of 2000 )) or a fire brigade of a fire authority (within the meaning of the Fire Services Act 1981 ) of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member, or

    (b) a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána,

    where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

    They are exempt from all of the requirements of the RTAs 1961-2010 except for the following:-
    • Driving without reasonable consideration.
    • Careless driving.
    • Dangerous driving.
    • Prohibition on a driving mechanically propelled vehicle while under influence of an intoxicant or if exceeding alcohol limits.
    • Prohibition on being in charge of mechanically propelled vehicle while under influence of
      intoxicant or if exceeding alcohol limits.
    • Preliminary impairment testing.
    • Obligation to provide breath, blood or urine specimens following arrest.

    Once driving a Garda vehicle in the performance of their duties and not putting any one in danger they are exempt, that is the law, it is not open to the Garda Commissioner, or anyone else involved in penalty points to add qualification to the exemption, doing such is acting ultra vires, not even a Garda Directive can do that.

    When applying for an exemption they simply show they were on duty and state nobody was put in danger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    GM228 wrote: »
    Read the law, not an article, S87 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 as amended:-



    Once driving a Garda vehicle in the performance of their duties and not putting any one in danger they are exempt, that is the law, it is not open to the Garda Commissioner, or anyone else involved in penalty points to add qualification to the exemption.

    When applying for an exemption they simply show they were on duty and state nobody was put in danger.

    The definition of "not putting others in danger" probably doesn't include tailgating and aggressive lane-weaving .. something that are both common occurences

    There's also the issue of AGS (not exactly known for their integrity regarding penalty points etc anyway) self-certifying their behaviour

    But I digress... bottom line is the internal policy seems to agree that a badge doesn't give carte-blanche to drive anyway they want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    The definition of "putting others in danger" probably doesn't include tailgating and aggressive lane-weaving .. something that are both common occurences

    There's also the issue of AGS (not exactly known for their integrity regarding penalty points etc anyway) self-certifying their behaviour

    But I digress... bottom line is the internal policy seems to agree that a badge doesn't give carte-blanche to drive anyway they want.

    Internal policy does not over rule an Act of the Oireachtas.

    Garda Directives can only govern Garda actions within the scope of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, the exemptions or indeed any roads matters are not covered for under the Act.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,297 ✭✭✭✭ _Kaiser_


    GM228 wrote: »
    Internal policy does not over rule an Act of the Oireachtas.

    Personal experience here would prove otherwise. An AGS sergeant was not impressed that one of his officers was acting the muppet on the M7 one morning and action was taken while I was on the phone.

    But hey.. we'll agree to disagree


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,084 ✭✭✭✭ ED E


    We're a little off topic but anyways:


    The driving of AGS is really questionable in places. I believe the commissioner wants to crack down on it when releasing statements like above but there definitely is an issue.

    McCabe (not proven) alleged that members arrived at a scene in a patrol car completely blotto, were told to fck off and then left again in the same vehicle.

    Additionally the death of two Gardai in Stillorgan during a chase in 02 was treated as a desperate tragedy. What was not mentioned nearly as much was the driving member was 2.5x the legal limit as it came out much later.



    I'd love to see the RPU squads detailed to do random spot checks of other members. Inspector on duty in Dublin could order it so it would actually be a surprise. Maybe that happens already but I wouldnt bet on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 450 ✭✭ RobbieMD


    shanec1928 wrote: »
    must have an exemption on pulling into the left lane on motorways too.

    Every garda driving course is taught that way. It’s to get people used to moving left out of the way of emergency service vehicles. If you’ve ever driven an emergency service’s vehicle, then you’d know the amount of idiot drivers who will literally stop in the overtaking lane of a motorway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,933 ✭✭✭ GM228


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    Internal policy does not over rule an Act of the Oireachtas.

    Personal experience here would prove otherwise. An AGS sergeant was not impressed that one of his officers was acting the muppet on the M7 one morning and action was taken while I was on the phone.

    But hey.. we'll agree to disagree

    With respects there's nothing to agree to disagree on - policy, directives or other forms of subordinate law simply can not over rule primary legislation, that is an absolute fact long established, there's case law on the issue from our highest court in the land (it's pretty much day one teaching for any one learning the law).

    There is only one form of subordinate law which can amend primary law in the form of ministerial regulations issued under the European Communities Act 1972 (and only because the Constitution specifically allows such), secondary law can only provide for matters as allowed for by the primary enabling legislation, anything outside that scope is acting ultra vires and unconstitutional.

    You can't prosecute a member of the emergency services for contravention of the Act such as speeding simpliciter (unless there is a danger to the public) because the Act does not allow for such. No policy etc can change that, that is not how the law works.

    There have been a few (not many) attempts by rookie Guards to prosecute other members for traffic infringements and once S87 is mentioned the cases are struck out because once the Court is satisfied the member was on duty and there was no danger to the public then it can not proceed.

    We have really gone off topic, if you wish to debate this topic further I suggest opening a thread in the Legal Discussion forum, there's plenty of us legal eagles over there to discuss it with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭ SC024


    L1011 wrote: »
    It's a speed check for their own vehicles which have their own (lower) limit.

    There was I thinking our "Army" was understaffed :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,642 ✭✭✭✭ coylemj


    coylemj wrote: »
    Garda cars have a blanket exemption on speed limits.
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    They do and they don't. In the course of things like pursuits etc yes, but they're expected to obey the laws the same as everyone else otherwise.

    They do, it's as simple as that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    coylemj wrote: »
    They do, it's as simple as that.
    where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.
    makes it less simple


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,642 ✭✭✭✭ coylemj


    makes it less simple

    What is the post number of that second post you quoted? Nobody called 'the last line of the legislation has posted in this thread.

    In fact, there is no such poster on boards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    coylemj wrote: »
    What is the post number of that second post you quoted? Nobody called 'the last line of the legislation has posted in this thread.

    In fact, there is no such poster on boards.

    He is quoting the second last line of the legislation


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  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Funny that we are 2 pages into this and not one person asked why they were doing it? Given the amount of equipment the army have and how even less using the motorway, could they not monitor speed from inside the vehicle rather than having lads sitting on a motorway overbridge? Seems like a waste of resources no?


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