Ireland's pig-ignorant approach to solar energy

Impetus

Renewable energy hostility is taken beyond the limit of stupidity in Ireland.

In Bulgaria, put up PV solar on your roof, and your receive a feed-in tariff of around 40c per kW/h. In Croatia it is 28 to 45c per kW/h.

Feed-in tariff is what a solar producer receives from the grid for surplus energy they put into the network, above what they consume themselves. It is illegal to sell electricity to 'your neighbour' in monopolistic Ireland.

Even the Chinese have a feed in tariff of about 15c per kW/h. Serbia 26c. Slovakia 43c. South Korea up to 60c per kW/h. Spain 32 to 34 c per kW/h. Brexit-land 30 to 45c equivalent per kW/h. California 39USc per kW/h.

Ireland 0c per kW/h. One has to donate surplus energy to Eirgrid racketeers, free of charge. And the pigs throw in ‘planning permission’ obstacles once one has more than a few m2 of solar panels.

With solar PV it is difficult to 'stop' exporting electricity. Short of climbing up on the roof and covering the cells with black blankets. Or storing it in batteries, which have a limited capacity.

To quote from Wikipedia for IRL:

‘Solar PV has been excluded from the last three REFIT feed-in tariff programs (which are solely targeted at large scale producers).[21] No commercial scale solar installations have been built in Ireland.
‘Residential and Micro scale Solar receives no grant aid, no subsidy and no tax deductions are available. No Feed-In tariffs are available for these customers and net-metering is similarly unavailable. Co-operative and privately shared electricity between separate properties is illegal.[22] A 9c/kWh Feed-In tariff was available from Electric Ireland until December 2014, when it was withdrawn without replacement. Income from this feed-in tariff was subject to income tax at up to 58%. No other Micro-scale Feed-In tariffs are available.[23]

‘Homeowners with grid connected PV systems are charged a €9.45 per billing cycle "low-usage surcharge" for importing less than 2kWh per day or being a net exporter of energy in a billing period.[24]’

Pete_Cavan

There isn't much benefit to the grid in introducing a FIT, you will get lots of energy being fed in at the same time but there may not be much demand for it at the time.

With the rise of EVs, people are more likely to use their own PV generated energy themselves, stored by battery until they need it. If you sell to the grid then you have to pay to charge your EV later. As most homes will have low usage during the day, you are essentially installing PV for the purpose of selling to the grid. The FIT will surely be less than the unit price of electricity in which case I don't see how it adds up (unless you have a night rate meter). The government are now offering grants for batteries for domestic PV storage and as batteries improve, people will be storing their own solar energy rather than selling to the grid, regardless of a FIT.

alias no.9

Feed in from domestic solar PV is worthless to the grid, it's unpredictable, unreliable and insignificant. If you're investing in PV, invest in storage.

ted1

So the wholesale price is 4c/kWh but you want 40?

FITs are s tax on the other users. Why should they subsides your choice?
Net metering is by far a better option

I believe the uk were only offering around 5 p/kWh and stopped the scheme fir new applicants in March

For the like if Bulgaria are they also offering grants like us or is the FIT in lieu of a grant

Atlantic Dawn

Too many politically connected power companies in this country for it to be ever allowed that commoner would sell clean energy back to the grid.

gally74

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Too many politically connected power companies in this country for it to be ever allowed that commoner would sell clean energy back to the grid.

Correct

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/11/02/germany-plans-20-fit-cut-for-commercial-and-industrial-solar/

Germany 9 cents.
Similar irradance as Ireland.

Alkers

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There isn't much benefit to the grid in introducing a FIT, you will get lots of energy being fed in at the same time but there may not be much demand for it at the time.

Then why is electricity more expensive during the day, exactly when PV would be producing?

Pete_Cavan

Alkers wrote: »

Then why is electricity more expensive during the day, exactly when PV would be producing?

For the vast majority of users, it's not more expensive during the day. Those with a night rate meter can avail of cheaper electricity between certain hours. This to utilise electricity when demand is low and is generally only for specific users, i.e. those with electric storage heating.

Ubbquittious

alias no.9 wrote: »

Feed in from domestic solar PV is worthless to the grid, it's unpredictable, unreliable and insignificant. If you're investing in PV, invest in storage.

It is predictable. You know a certain amount of it will be produced between sunrise and sunset every day. Which also happens to be the time when most of it ends up being used

alias no.9

Ubbquittious wrote: »

alias no.9 wrote: »

Feed in from domestic solar PV is worthless to the grid, it's unpredictable, unreliable and insignificant. If you're investing in PV, invest in storage.

It is predictable. You know a certain amount of it will be produced between sunrise and sunset every day. Which also happens to be the time when most of it ends up being used

What you don't know is how much of that will be surplus to the producers requirements on a momentary basis. In reality the entire power demand must be sourced elsewhere and anything coming from feed in is effectively dumped, it has no commercial value at a grid level.

Ubbquittious

alias no.9 wrote: »

What you don't know is how much of that will be surplus to the producers requirements on a momentary basis. In reality the entire power demand must be sourced elsewhere and anything coming from feed in is effectively dumped, it has no commercial value at a grid level.

From the point of view of the current infrastructure the addition of solar power just makes it appear as if there is less being used during the day. There is nothing to dump

alias no.9

Ubbquittious wrote: »

alias no.9 wrote: »

What you don't know is how much of that will be surplus to the producers requirements on a momentary basis. In reality the entire power demand must be sourced elsewhere and anything coming from feed in is effectively dumped, it has no commercial value at a grid level.

From the point of view of the current infrastructure the addition of solar power just makes it appear as if there is less being used during the day. There is nothing to dump

From the point of view of meeting demand, the there in always surplus power on tap. This surplus power is needed to make sure there are never any brown outs or black outs.

A handful of domestic PEV installations with occasional surplus power will not reduce the surplus that needs to be pumped into the grid because it's miniscule relative to the total power requirements, it's unpredictable and unreliable.

The surplus power a domestic PV installation may have, some of the time, has zero commercial value at a grid level. It's as useful as a passer by offering the end of their bottle of ballygowan to fire fighters trying to put out a forrest fire, yes it's water and they need water to put out the fire, but it doesn't help in any way.

If you have excess power, invest in batteries, the power is worth something to you. It has no value to the grid.

Alkers

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

For the vast majority of users, it's not more expensive during the day. Those with a night rate meter can avail of cheaper electricity between certain hours. This to utilise electricity when demand is low and is generally only for specific users, i.e. those with electric storage heating.

Night meters are available to everyone, they're not there to cater for storage heaters, they're there to encourage people to use more electricity at off-peak times. Sure the ESB pump vast amounts of water uphill every night at turlough hill, just so they can harness that energy again during the following day...

Water John

Night rate can be used by heat pump space heating which is becoming standard in any new build also for EVs which are becoming mainstream.
One of the peak times of electrical use is during lunchtime, which has a high price and solar would satisfy that peak demand.
Are all the other countries stupid?

Capt'n Midnight

Impetus wrote: »

Renewable energy hostility is taken beyond the limit of stupidity in Ireland.
...
Brexit-land 30 to 45c equivalent per kW/h.

not anymore

https://www.gov.uk/feed-in-tariffs

If you’ve installed solar panels and had a Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) certificate issued by 31 March 2019, you can apply to your energy supplier until 31 March 2020.
...
You’ll get 5.24p per unit of electricity.

Ben D Bus

Solar seems to be a relatively poor investment this far north. The same number of euro invested in other renewables may give a much better return. Is domestic solar more about the green feel-good factor than actual economic or environmental sense?

The video below gives some figures for the UK. Key point being the best location for PV is where demand matches daylight i.e. hot places where the aircon goes on when the sun shines, not cool places (like Ireland/UK) where we put the heating on in the cold dark winters

By coincidence I watched this video just today. I haven't fact checked them so feel free to correct...

https://youtu.be/maJhr5zKp-o

I'd respectfully appreciate a reasoned rebuttal rather than just be called pig-ignorant if that's OK

Donalde

Feed in from domestic solar PV is worthless to the grid, it's unpredictable, unreliable and insignificant.

Surely it is no more unpredictable or unreliable than wind, but the government has no problem with defacing the entire west coast with turbines for the benefit of international finance companies.
It could be significant if there was scheme that gave a FIT to local community centres, farmers with slatted houses etc, small businesses, GAA stands, etc etc would put the money (derived from a tax on consumers in the form of PSO levies) back in the hands of the people and communities.
By generating the electricty where it is being used, cost of transmission over long distances and the resultant pylons could be reduced/avoided.
The absence of a FIT shows the hypocracy of the Climate Change emergency declared by the government.

ted1

Donalde wrote: »

Surely it is no more unpredictable or unreliable than wind, but the government has no problem with defacing the entire west coast with turbines for the benefit of international finance companies.
It could be significant if there was scheme that gave a FIT to local community centres, farmers with slatted houses etc, small businesses, GAA stands, etc etc would put the money (derived from a tax on consumers in the form of PSO levies) back in the hands of the people and communities.
By generating the electricty where it is being used, cost of transmission over long distances and the resultant pylons could be reduced/avoided.
The absence of a FIT shows the hypocracy of the Climate Change emergency declared by the government.

Why would the a GAA stand need solar?

Donalde

PV panels on stand roof nto raise funds via a FIT

ted1

Donalde wrote: »

PV panels on stand roof nto raise funds via a FIT

And there lies the problem. FITs serve no purpose other than providing a return on investment.

Where do you think these funds come from ? The tariffs need to be increased to cover the FIT.

Are the GAA an sporting organisation or investment body?

Donalde

There seem to be no problem giving FIT to the finance companies for their turbines from the PSO levies why should Individuals etc be different?
FIT are not just a return on investment, they are also an incentive for consumers to invest in panels to generate their own electricity.

Macha

If roofs are suitable, it makes good sense to put up solar. Where it's used is less important as that's what the grid is there for.

Water John

This article indicates the direction solar generation and customers is going.
https://www.current-news.co.uk/blogs/long-read-power-to-the-people-how-solar-and-storage-is-helping-topple-the-big-six

It really is all about dispersed generation with consequent knock on of not having to put up further major infrastructure.

Impetus

It has been super-windy today in Ireland and at lunch-time about 75% of electricity came from wind turbines. Which are heavily 'regulated', dumb regulation. There is no grid connection between IRL and anywhere else - aside from two cans and a string to GB. Where energy is priced in a rapidly declining GBP.

In summer, spring and autumn solar will prevail in terms of generation.

In windy winter, wind turbines do the job.

Ireland could deliver 20GW+ to the rest of the EU if it had connectivity. The mingy (in terms of capacity) Cork to France grid interface won't be available until probably 2026.

The EU has a huge offshore wind resource and land based PV energy source in Ireland. Most nuclear plants in Europe will have to shut down over the next ten years or so. Dirty lignite is a major source of German electricity production. Ireland's neighbour France is grid connected to most of the rest of Europe. Climate change is reducing river flows. Water is a huge consumer of nuclear, gas, coal and oil generation of electricity. In 2003 France had to shut down most of its nuclear stations because of the low river levels, and depend on Germany and Spain grid connections to keep the show on the road. PV solar and wind do not require water. When one is up, the other might be down. But they complement each other.

Time to wake up and smell the cof.....

alias no.9

Donalde wrote: »

Feed in from domestic solar PV is worthless to the grid, it's unpredictable, unreliable and insignificant.

Surely it is no more unpredictable or unreliable than wind, but the government has no problem with defacing the entire west coast with turbines for the benefit of international finance companies.
It could be significant if there was scheme that gave a FIT to local community centres, farmers with slatted houses etc, small businesses, GAA stands, etc etc would put the money (derived from a tax on consumers in the form of PSO levies) back in the hands of the people and communities.
By generating the electricty where it is being used, cost of transmission over long distances and the resultant pylons could be reduced/avoided.
The absence of a FIT shows the hypocracy of the Climate Change emergency declared by the government.

Wind generation has scale, domestic PV does not. The wind generating capacity of the grid is backed up by natural gas powered power stations. The output of the gas powered power stations can be ramped up and down based on weather models because the wind farms have sufficient production capacity to count at a grid level.

The excess capacity of a domestic PV setup will never be such that a gas powered power station can be throttled back in any meaningful way, as such that excess capacity has no commercial value to the grid.

A previous post does have some insight

Ubbquittious wrote: »

From the point of view of the current infrastructure the addition of solar power just makes it appear as if there is less being used during the day. There is nothing to dump

It does make it appear that there is less being used and it is incentivised by means of a capital grant for installation in the same way other demand reduction meaaures such as insulation and upgrading to more energy efficient appliances are incentivised.

A senior manager in a place I used to work used often use the phrase

you've got to separate the macro from the micro

and it's really appropriate here, domestic PV has a demand reduction effect at a micro level but the grid can only respond to macro level inputs.

If anything, by including domestic PV in the demand reduction side of things, Irelands approach to solar energy is enlightened rather than ignorant. This is bourne out by the changes in other markets as already quoted above where feed in tariffs are being slashed.

Water John

The ESB can well calculate the domestic PV input when it becomes more developed, using the weather and a production profile.

alias no.9

Water John wrote: »

The ESB can well calculate the domestic PV input when it becomes more developed, using the weather and a production profile.

It still doesn't register at a magnitude that has any significance with respect to grid level power generation. We're back to the half bottle of ballygowan at a forrest fire, it's water and fire fighters need water but even if thousands of bystander each had a half bottle of ballygowan, it's make no difference to the water needs of the fire fighters.

Impetus

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Solar seems to be a relatively poor investment this far north. The same number of euro invested in other renewables may give a much better return. Is domestic solar more about the green feel-good factor than actual economic or environmental sense?

The video below gives some figures for the UK. Key point being the best location for PV is where demand matches daylight i.e. hot places where the aircon goes on when the sun shines, not cool places (like Ireland/UK) where we put the heating on in the cold dark winters

By coincidence I watched this video just today. I haven't fact checked them so feel free to correct...

https://youtu.be/maJhr5zKp-o

I'd respectfully appreciate a reasoned rebuttal rather than just be called pig-ignorant if that's OK

This video is missing the point.

We need a constant renewable energy supply year-round.

This can be delivered by:

1) Wind
2) PV solar
3) Grid swapping
4) Other renewable resources including waste incineration rather than landfill.


Wind power and solar are complementary. If a state spent ‘all its money’ on wind, there would be no power when there was no wind blowing. And vice versa. This guy is talking dumb, put all your money in one egg basket rubbish.

And IRL needs inter-state grid connectivity + peaking gas can make up for periods where there is neither wind nor sun.

Also the sky over Ireland has far cleaner air than most of GB. Which allows more PV energy to penetrate.

And it is no excuse for EUR 0 feed-in tariff for solar. If I want to spend 15k on solar, for a house I only occasionally use, why can’t I sell the surplus kw/h to the grid? Everybody has different circumstances. Let the market decide. Eirgrid has no right to free electricity due to dumb/corruption in the system.

Unless you are Mr Energy ignorent for Ireland, what rebuttal do you have a right to? Even then....

Water John

Even if domestic PV didn't have a big overall grid impact, it's worth it to support it at an individual house level. Of course a high take up will have a grid effect.

ted1

Impetus wrote: »

And it is no excuse for EUR 0 feed-in tariff for solar. If I want to spend 15k on solar, for a house I only occasionally use, why can’t I sell the surplus kw/h to the grid? Everybody has different circumstances. Let the market decide. Eirgrid has no right to free electricity due to dumb/corruption in the system.

Unless you are Mr Energy ignorent for Ireland, what rebuttal do you have a right to? Even then....

If you choose to spend 15,000 on a PV system to become an IPP.
Why should other users pay a premium, if you want to invest in solar then invest in a commercial solar venture.
Join the market if you want to sell electricity

Impetus

PS And while I would be happy to give my surplus PV energy to my neighbours, it would probably be illegal, because I would be in breach of the 'ESB' grid monopoly on electric power and providing it to others. It would probably make it illegal to be their guest for dinner.

Just like phone 'services' in the past. ie if one had an office and purchased a phone system from a private company, one had to pay Eir's predecessor - ie the Dept of P&T the equivalent fee (protection money - or else we will cut you off from the network stuff) for them providing their antiquated phone system of similar scale to your office. Doubling the cost. Meanwhile they provided nothing.

State mafia racketeering continues unabated. It is particularly apparent in the 'health service', electricity supply, air travel, the non-availability of houses/apartments, the absence of an inter-modal public transport system, appalling road signage, energy wasteful poor quality construction 'standards', etc...