Parents house

WWMRD

Hi I know it may seem morbid however we talk about all this stuff at home the whole time so just looking for some advice.

Parents both in their 70s and relatively healthy have three kids and my mom is worried that if something happens her before dad that he will sell the house and rent an apartment and gamble the rest....history of alcoholism and bets on horses daily!

She has gone to her solicitor and he states she cannot leave her share of the house to her three children.

They thing is my dad has no idea whatsoever how to deal with finances with bills insurance washing cleaning etc etc he would need help daily/weekly

I have offered to buy the house from them and leave them live there with the plan that I would move in after they are both gone.

I have no problem buying out my siblings but worried that dad will either sell or the house will burn down in a drink infused coooking session!

It’s really starting to cause issues at home lately with dad constantly saying I’ll sell this house when your gone! He is 100% certain mam will be gone before him!

Any advise what to do? If something was to happen mam can we have dad removed from making financial decisions?

Thanks!

Meh..... If she passes away before him he can do as he pleases with it.
Solicitor is correct BTW.

I doubt he'd sell the house to gamble though & I enjoy a flutter myself

Water John

If one of the family was resident in the house, he could not sell it, but I presume nobody wants to move back in.
The odds are it may be needed for Fair Deal Nursing Home Scheme at some point.

amcalester

What’s so wrong with him enjoying his last years?

Jupiter Mulligan

WWMRD wrote: »

She has gone to her solicitor and he states she cannot leave her share of the house to her three children.

I don't think that's quite accurate.

She can will it to the kids if she wishes to - but if she dies first he has a right to claim the home - but would have to buy out the children's interest if the value of the house exceeded the 33% share of her estate that he's entitled to.

(from this link)




.

Victor

Water John wrote: »

If one of the family was resident in the house, he could not sell it

While there would be practical difficulties, what legal basis do you have for this?

amcalester wrote: »

What’s so wrong with him enjoying his last years?

There is a difference between the odd tipple & flutter and homelessness, neglect, malnutrition, absence of medical care, etc.

amcalester

Victor wrote: »

There is a difference between the odd tipple & flutter and homelessness, neglect, malnutrition, absence of medical care, etc.

True. But buying the house out doesn’t really address this. If anything it makes it easier for him to flitter the money away.

katiek102010

Get your mum to sell you her half of the house

Peregrinus

WWMRD wrote: »

She has gone to her solicitor and he states she cannot leave her share of the house to her three children.

Which sounds as though Mum and Dad own the house as "joint tenants" - meaning, they jointly own it now, but when one of them dies the other will own it outright by right of survivorship.

Which means . . .

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

She can will it to the kids if she wishes to - but if she dies first he has a right to claim the home - but would have to buy out the children's interest if the value of the house exceeded the 33% share of her estate that he's entitled to.

. . . that this is wrong. If Mum dies first, her half-share in the house goes directly to Dad. It does not form part of her estate, and she cannot leave it by her will to anyone. She can say what she likes in her will, but it will only take effect as regards the house if she survives Dad, and becomes the sole owner of the house, in which the entire house will form part of her estate.

Glass fused light

WWMRD wrote: »

It’s really starting to cause issues at home lately with dad constantly saying I’ll sell this house when your gone! He is 100% certain mam will be gone before him!
..
Any advise what to do?

Thanks!

This is the only part that you can negotiate.
Your dad sounds like he is being abusive and bulllying in the way he is bringing it up to upset your mam. So it's how do you manage that. It will depend on his personality and the state of the relationship between your parents.
Talk to your mam and find out exactly what is upsetting her, the house not being passed on or the thought of her death or something else. Talk to your dad and find out why he is bring the subject up when he is aware that it upsets your mam.

One option is to close off the topic :
Get your mother to make a will if she wants to. Ditto for Dad
Depending on both their health status thinking about a power of attorney and doing a do not resuscitate instruction may be an option.
Then get the household utility bills, health and other insurance stored into one place eg a folders in a cupboard.
Sort any other points of worry that can be resolved.
Then you all need to agree to not bring up the subject of the house.
If your dad can't agree to this everyone else needs to agree a common method to shut down the conversation.

Mrs OBumble

WWMRD wrote: »

...history of alcoholism and bets on horses daily!

.... dad has no idea whatsoever how to deal with finances with bills insurance washing cleaning etc etc he would need help daily/weekly

....t worried that dad will either sell or the house will burn down in a drink infused coooking session! ....

It’s really starting to cause issues at home lately with dad constantly saying I’ll sell this house when your gone! He is 100% certain mam will be gone before him!

Any advise what to do? If something was to happen mam can we have dad removed from making financial decisions?

There are a number of domestic violence red-flags in your post. My first advice is to get her a pamphlet from Women's Aid, and the name of a good family lawyer.

Personally I would divorce him: no woman needs to be saddled with a man-child after her real children have grown up.

Marcusm

Your parents likely hold the property as joint tenants meaning survivorship rights. If your mother wanted to leave her share she would first have to sever the joint tenancy into a tenancy in common.

If she wants this she will need to speak to a solicitor and your father will have to be involved.

WWMRD

Thanks for replies everyone!
Had a chat with mam about everything today and she will discus with solicitor about tenancy in common.

She is just worried that what they have to show for their life’s work would end up in paddy powers pocket (and I’m 80% certain that it would!)

Awful shame that at the end of the day it comes down to this!

Thanks again everyone

Glass fused light

WWMRD wrote: »

Thanks for replies everyone!
Had a chat with mam about everything today and she will discus with solicitor about tenancy in common.

She is just worried that what they have to show for their life’s work would end up in paddy powers pocket (and I’m 80% certain that it would!)

No their real lifes work is in the adults they raised.
Keep reminding her of that when the subject comes up.

Always Tired

If he has the history of alcoholism he'll probably go first, women tend to live longer anyway.

CelticRambler

If this is a threat idea that he talks about regularly, then (following on from Mrs OBumble's post) your mother should be ready to fire back at him the next time that she believes him, that she's had enough, that she's thinking of getting a divorce, and she'll be coming after him for the house.

The shock of having her come back at him with such a proposal might shut him up for a while, and if he heard that she'd actually been to see a solicitor, he might cop on to himself. That's assuming that he's the benign kind of alcoholic, all talk and no action; if there's any hint of him getting mad at her and giving her a battering, probably best to skip the talking about it stage and start divorce proceedings straight away.

Always Tired

Always Tired wrote: »

If he has the history of alcoholism he'll probably go first, women tend to live longer anyway.

Statistically this is correct however it doesn't always work like that.

Bigmac1euro

Always Tired wrote: »

If he has the history of alcoholism he'll probably go first, women tend to live longer anyway.

Unfortunately this isn't how it works, first hand experience right here.

Mrs OBumble

Another thought: get in touch with Al-Anon.

They will help you understand the reality of his behaviours.

It really shouldn’t concern you what he might do if she died first. It’ll be his house. He can do what he likes. I know that it’s galling to think that he might just gamble it away, but that’s really his business.
It comes across that you’re worried that you might be losing out. I’d be more worried about having to look after him!

4ensic15

When you mother dies you should move immediately to have him made a ward of court on the basis he is unable to manage himslef and his finances.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

It really shouldn’t concern you what he might do if she died first. It’ll be his house. He can do what he likes. I know that it’s galling to think that he might just gamble it away, but that’s really his business.
It comes across that you’re worried that you might be losing out. I’d be more worried about having to look after him!

If a person's (presumably elderly) mother is being emotionally abused by a relative, then it's appropriate to do more than more than just mind your own business.

WWMRD

Thanks again everyone.

I had a long talk at home today with both my parents regarding what would happen. Mam told dad about the plan with the solicitor and he is going along with it so far. He has been a great provider for the family before he retired however he has become obsessed with money and enjoying himself the last few years.

My biggest fear is he has never had to deal with money and has no idea the value of it! To him €20 is a lot and thinks he could live off that each week bills included! So I would be afraid he would start selling stuff off etc and be made a fool of....including the house.

He has a history of showing off with money in the past and spent his retirement package in 6months treating all his buddies in the bookies and pub. I’m just worried that’s exactly what he would do again.

In response to worrying I’ll be losing out....I’m not like that! The last thing I want to see is my dad on the streets pennyless because of addiction....it has happened many in our town!

We have done Al Alon before as a family after my dad was treated for alcoholism. It did help at the time maybe that is something I could suggest again at home for mam.

My husband and I are fully aware that we would more than likely be the ones to move into the house to mind him in the event of my mother dying first.

Mam is going to ring to meet solicitor ASAP just for her peace of mind at this stage.

Thanks again to all

Glass fused light

4ensic15 wrote: »

When you mother dies you should move immediately to have him made a ward of court on the basis he is unable to manage himslef and his finances.

That is not how it works. Once he has the ability to understand the cause and effect of his actions he is free to make decisions for himself. Being "drunk" is not a permanent loss of capacity. Even if these decisions have bad outcomes. Selling the house (once sober at the signing of the contract) and blowing the money may be a bad idea with a very bad outcome but the courts are unlikely to allow the removal of his personal liberty for being drunk and spending money.

4ensic15

Glass fused light wrote: »

That is not how it works. Once he has the ability to understand the cause and effect of his actions he is free to make decisions for himself. Being "drunk" is not a permanent loss of capacity. Even if these decisions have bad outcomes. Selling the house (once sober at the signing of the contract) and blowing the money may be a bad idea with a very bad outcome but the courts are unlikely to allow the removal of his personal liberty for being drunk and spending money.

being made a warde of court does not remove a persons liberty. Being liable to get drunk and behave inimically to ones welfare is the same as having alzheimers and wnadering off. there is a lack of capacity to manage one's own affairs. just because the lack of capacity is caused by alcohiol rather than some other condition is not relevant. No rational adult sells their house, spends the proceeds on drinking and gambling and then becomes destitute.

Glass fused light

WWMRD wrote: »

My biggest fear is he has never had to deal with money and has no idea the value of it! To him €20 is a lot and thinks he could live off that each week bills included! So I would be afraid he would start selling stuff off etc and be made a fool of....including the house.

....

My husband and I are fully aware that we would more than likely be the ones to move into the house to mind him in the event of my mother dying first.

Perhaps getting them (him) to do a budget of all the household bills and get him to do the shopping, buying his own clothes etc might be a way to make him see the value and cost of things. My dad always left the financial management to mam and would have little idea of how much it costs on a weekly basis.

As for the idea of moving in, if he is still functioning and not a danger to himself, I would leave that a the very last option. You are moving into his space, and just adjusting to this would be stressful. Add in the drink and trying to manage that could kill you both.
For now look see if there is a mens shed local as its a social event without the drink or bookies.
For now also look at what elder supports are available to help him live independantly as possible after your mums passing.

noel100

You are great to get this done now. My parents were near retirement. Mother disabled and only 60 father was carer and retired. They sold their house and were building a purpose built house for my mother's needs. The foundations were laid and my mother died from a massive heart attack. Money in the bank my father went on a drinking and gambling splurge till he got sick and slowly died from cirrhosis. Died several years after mother. He became a horrible nasty individual. All you would get is abuse from him when you tried to help. He suffered horrible death and was in agony all self induced....
My mother held the purse strings and when she died he was feeling sorry for himself. He was like the cat that got the cream....
Get your mother to have something in place and make sure it is iron clad...

BarryD2

WWMRD wrote: »

Thanks again everyone.

I had a long talk at home today with both my parents regarding what would happen. Mam told dad about the plan with the solicitor and he is going along with it so far. He has been a great provider for the family before he retired however he has become obsessed with money and enjoying himself the last few years.

My biggest fear is he has never had to deal with money and has no idea the value of it! To him €20 is a lot and thinks he could live off that each week bills included! So I would be afraid he would start selling stuff off etc and be made a fool of....including the house.

He has a history of showing off with money in the past and spent his retirement package in 6months treating all his buddies in the bookies and pub. I’m just worried that’s exactly what he would do again.

A few things there don't really add up. Assuming your Dad is in the full possession of his faculties, it even comes across as a bit patronising. If he has been a great provider in the past, then he must surely know how to handle money and the value of it and so on. He's done his bit in life and wants to enjoy a bit of time with his buddies. Maybe cut him a bit of slack, trust him but keep an eye on things too from more of a distance?

WWMRD

noel100 wrote: »

You are great to get this done now. My parents were near retirement. Mother disabled and only 60 father was carer and retired. They sold their house and were building a purpose built house for my mother's needs. The foundations were laid and my mother died from a massive heart attack. Money in the bank my father went on a drinking and gambling splurge till he got sick and slowly died from cirrhosis. Died several years after mother. He became a horrible nasty individual. All you would get is abuse from him when you tried to help. He suffered horrible death and was in agony all self induced....
My mother held the purse strings and when she died he was feeling sorry for himself. He was like the cat that got the cream....
Get your mother to have something in place and make sure it is iron clad...

THIS is why I’m looking at this for my mom now. This is what I fear will happen. Thank you for sharing, it must have been very difficult to go through.

WWMRD

BarryD2 wrote: »

A few things there don't really add up. Assuming your Dad is in the full possession of his faculties, it even comes across as a bit patronising. If he has been a great provider in the past, then he must surely know how to handle money and the value of it and so on. He's done his bit in life and wants to enjoy a bit of time with his buddies. Maybe cut him a bit of slack, trust him but keep an eye on things too from more of a distance?

A great provider meant that the paycheck was handed over to my mother each week for her to deal with everythinh and he got ‘Pocket money’....he worked hard until retirement. Many peoples stories I’ve witnessed included the father drinking and gambling the wages each week! So yeah he provided for his family.

His handling of money involves getting the paper each day....bookies three times a day and the few drinks a week he still has. That is what he does money wise nothing else.

Don’t get me wrong I love him very much and I’d do anything for him but I just don’t believe he has the knowledge of how things are run and the past experience of drinking and gambling don’t give us as a family the confidence in him to survive solo we would love to have.

WWMRD

Glass fused light wrote: »

Perhaps getting them (him) to do a budget of all the household bills and get him to do the shopping, buying his own clothes etc might be a way to make him see the value and cost of things. My dad always left the financial management to mam and would have little idea of how much it costs on a weekly basis.

As for the idea of moving in, if he is still functioning and not a danger to himself, I would leave that a the very last option. You are moving into his space, and just adjusting to this would be stressful. Add in the drink and trying to manage that could kill you both.
For now look see if there is a mens shed local as its a social event without the drink or bookies.
For now also look at what elder supports are available to help him live independantly as possible after your mums passing.

Thank you 😊
I’ve looked at the men’s shed alright and the local senior citizens group and i do believe they would be good for him

kravmaga

WWMRD wrote: »

Hi I know it may seem morbid however we talk about all this stuff at home the whole time so just looking for some advice.

Parents both in their 70s and relatively healthy have three kids and my mom is worried that if something happens her before dad that he will sell the house and rent an apartment and gamble the rest....history of alcoholism and bets on horses daily!

She has gone to her solicitor and he states she cannot leave her share of the house to her three children.

They thing is my dad has no idea whatsoever how to deal with finances with bills insurance washing cleaning etc etc he would need help daily/weekly

I have offered to buy the house from them and leave them live there with the plan that I would move in after they are both gone.

I have no problem buying out my siblings but worried that dad will either sell or the house will burn down in a drink infused coooking session!

It’s really starting to cause issues at home lately with dad constantly saying I’ll sell this house when your gone! He is 100% certain mam will be gone before him!

Any advise what to do? If something was to happen mam can we have dad removed from making financial decisions?

Thanks!

I presume your parents have made a will with their solicitor??

If yes, whats in it? ie who gets the house on their death

Pawwed Rig

kravmaga wrote: »

I presume your parents have made a will with their solicitor??

If yes, whats in it? ie who gets the house on their death

It is irrelevant who is named in the will while either of the parents is still alive.

marieholmfan

Marcusm wrote: »

Your parents likely hold the property as joint tenants meaning survivorship rights. If your mother wanted to leave her share she would first have to sever the joint tenancy into a tenancy in common.

If she wants this she will need to speak to a solicitor and your father will have to be involved.

Divorce.

notsoyoungwan

4ensic15 wrote: »

being made a warde of court does not remove a persons liberty. Being liable to get drunk and behave inimically to ones welfare is the same as having alzheimers and wnadering off. there is a lack of capacity to manage one's own affairs. just because the lack of capacity is caused by alcohiol rather than some other condition is not relevant. No rational adult sells their house, spends the proceeds on drinking and gambling and then becomes destitute.

That’s not at all how it works. Wardship is very restrictive and not conferred on drunks who do foolish things in pursuit of more drink.

I do psychiatric reports for potential wardship cases regularly and I can tell you there’s not a chance of someone being made a ward of court because they’re an alcoholic who might ‘drink the house’ etc.

Glass fused light

4ensic15 wrote: »

4ensic15

notsoyoungwan wrote: »

That’s not at all how it works. Wardship is very restrictive and not conferred on drunks who do foolish things in pursuit of more drink.

I do psychiatric reports for potential wardship cases regularly and I can tell you there’s not a chance of someone being made a ward of court because they’re an alcoholic who might ‘drink the house’ etc.

The father in this situation is well beyond that.

Glass fused light

4ensic15 wrote: »

 Being liable to get drunk and behave inimically to ones welfare is the same as having alzheimers and wnadering off.

Its not anything like alzheimers or other demintia related illnesses. Parts of the brain gradualy stops working with no ability to repair or recover.

People with these illnesses gradually loose the capacity of rational decision making because they cant understand possible outcomes. Simply put in later stages they cant think things through. People with early stage illness will start by being gradualy classes as having diminished capacity or as a vulnerable adult. And legal, medical, banks and other people involved in high value transactions would need to safegard by establishing that the person understands and can participate in what is going on. The shopkeeper selling food or the bookie can serve them same as they can serve a drunk person.

People who have strokes can also loose capacity as the damage to the brain prevents them processsing data properly. What they hear or see may make no sense and/or just the loss of the ability to communicate their wishes could result in loss of capacity. Depending on how their brains can rewire around the damage they can regain fully or partially or not at all.

4ensic15 wrote: »

being made a warde of court does not remove a persons liberty.

They loose the legal right you and i enjoy without thinking about it.

You can have free access to your money to buy things, travel, consent to sex and control your lifestyle and living accommdation.

Wards decisions are made by persons appointed by the court.

You would have no right to access your money. You can be placed in a care facility, loose the right to decisions on your care, physical,  medical etc.

notsoyoungwan

4ensic15 wrote: »

The father in this situation is well beyond that.

We don’t know that. What we do know is that the OP has said their father has never had to handle money, he handed up his wages and got pocket money back, and then blew his retirement package on gambling and drink. That doesn’t mean he can’t manage money, it just means he has never had to, has been enabled and facilitated not to, and has never had to learn or face the consequences of mismanagement, recklessness or irresponsibility.

There’s no mention of dementia or other conditions which would impair his capacity, just a history of alcohol abuse, which the law does not recognize as an excuse/defence- if you do something whilst intoxicated you’re still responsible. If you rob someone in an attempt to get money for alcohol you’re still responsible for your actions.

An analogy would be that for years after I started driving I was totally clueless about car maintenance. Utterly clueless. I never needed to know cos I lived close enough to my parents so I was there frequently and my father always checked oil, brake fluid, tire pressure etc for me. When I moved further away and Daddy was no longer there as a back up, I learned pretty quickly so that I wouldn’t end up stranded at the side of the road.

Bringing a wardship petition for the OPs father in the circumstances outlined would get you laughed out of court. In actual fact, it wouldn’t even get near the courts as you need 2 medical opinions swearing lack of capacity and there’s nothing to suggest that. drinking to excess and gambling can be considered unwise, reckless and capricious, but people are entitled to make bad decisions.