Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Floorplan changes in 2-bed Dublin apt. Before and after images.

  • 30-06-2019 12:15am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 31


    Hi there,

    This is the floorplan of my 2-bed apartment in Dublin (attached below also).

    483994.jpg

    There is a long(ish) corridor inside the main bedroom which I consider a bad use of space. I want to make the following changes:

    1> Move the door to the main bedroom back to the end of the entrance hall.
    2> Move the door to the small bedroom further down so it lines up with the window to allow more light into the apartment.
    3> Move the door from the entrance hall to the living room so it is opposite the entrance to the small bedroom. When both doors are open there will be a view from the living room out the window.
    4> Remove the small walls dividing the kitchen from the living room. It's one of those terrible arches that were popular 25 years ago.
    5> This last change mightn't be to everyone's taste and it has pros and cons but I like the idea of making the small bedroom door and the living room doors sliding in-wall pocket doors.

    483993.jpg

    The apartment block was built in 1995. It is the top floor of a 5-storey building. Concrete floors. Solid block apartment exterior walls. Standard (4-inch?) stud partition walls. Partition walls are not load bearing. Dublin 7. Would need to move light switches and plug sockets to make this work. The small bedroom only used at weekends.

    I want to do this right if I do it at all, so my question is about regulations (fire etc) more than anything else. As I understand it apartment interior doors have to be self-closing (which is possible with pocket doors). None of these changes are massive, I am not actually moving any walls, its just about moving door openings but I believe I would still need a certificate from the fire safety people? We are having a new fire alarm system fitted in the building this month actually so I should be able to get info from the electricians fitting it.

    Can anyone recommend a builder for this job? Also, should I begin by talking to the building management company or what? If anyone has done any work like this I'd love to hear from them.

    Thanks,
    D


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,689 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    Id say the management co might be your biggest obstacle. Many would err on the side of caution and not allow layout redesigns like this at all for fear it could effect the structural integrity of the building.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Thanks Muahahaha,

    Yeah, you might be right, even though there would be no chance whatsoever of any impact to the structural integrity of the building. I wouldn't even be moving the walls, just the door openings.

    Does anyone else have any thoughts on this, or experience of it?

    Thanks,
    D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,689 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    I would say people make adjustments of non load bearing walls all the time without informing the mgmt co. In theory though if they found out they could force someone to undo the work. Another consideration might be when if you ever want to sell it on, the original floor plans might be contained in the Book of Title for the property so if you go to sell it an alert solicitor acting for the purchaser might start asking questions. If you were to go ahead seek the advice of an engineer, there might be other considerations here that you are missing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    dos101, you might be better asking a mod to move this thread to construction & planning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 150 ✭✭landcrzr


    Are you 100% that the stud walls are not load bearing? Is the roof above concrete or possibly timber?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Thanks everyone.

    I'll take your concerns onboard and will hire an engineer to come and inspect it, that will remove the guesswork. If anyone could suggest an engineer operating in the Dublin 7 area I'd love to hear from you.

    @Graham, I agree that "construction & planning" would be a more suitable place for this post. I see you are a moderator, could you assist me in moving this thread?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I'm not a moderator in this forum dos101, I've brought the thread to the attention of the local forum mods.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,339 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Any changes to the doors will have to meet fire regulations and have appropriate certificates. Typically, doors for bedrooms and living rooms in apartments need to have a specific fire rating and automatic door closers, not sure how that works with your proposed sliding doors?
    While I'm sure there's a solution, if you do this without specifying it properly, you'll end up ripping it out and either reverting to how it is now or doing it properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Thank you Alias_No.9,

    Yes, I had looked into the requirement to have the doors self-closing and this is possible when fitting sliding (pocket) doors:
    http://www.eclisse.ie/Accessories/Self-Closing-System

    My next step is to find an engineer to inspect the place, would be happy to hear any recommendations for an engineer.

    Regards,
    D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Better layout than original but still not great in my view. Still boring boxes.

    Given the hassle your going to be going through, I'd pay a few quid to get a smart architect in to sketch up some better layouts that work with what's there. They will be aware of the various building reg constraints and their layouts will, therefore, be more pragmatic than your own.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Thanks antiskeptic. I did ask an architect friend of mine to come buy to give her opinion and she liked my idea, primarily because it provided more light into the apartment and it introduced a second view from the living area when the sliding doors are open. Its the top floor apartment so I can see over the city to the Wicklow mountains from that window in the small bedroom.

    I would replace the bed in that smaller bedroom with a tilting Murphy bed, so it would be a desk during the week and a bed at the weekends.

    The problem with making more changes than the ones I have illustrated is that I'm likely to run into more objections from the property management company if I change a lot. As it is I am not actually moving any walls, that is on purpose, but moving the door openings makes a difference.

    I still need to find an engineer to come and inspect it, need to find one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    dos101 wrote: »
    The problem with making more changes than the ones I have illustrated is that I'm likely to run into more objections from the property management company if I change a lot. As it is I am not actually moving any walls, that is on purpose, but moving the door openings makes a difference.

    Perhaps the first thing to do is find out what kind of view the management company will have. I've a friend selling an apartment in which a neighbour was permitted to develop the attic above their top floor apartment! So long as the man co know that someone pro is overseeing the work they mightn't have that big an issue.

    Once you know their view you know the extent of what you can do. And I think you can do a lot better than current. It's only stud walls you're dealing with afterall - hardly big structural elements.

    Imagine, for example, you take that main bedroom door, shift it north a meter then rotate clockwise around it's right hand edge, through 90 degrees, so that it's located in the wall between living and bed. Corridor extended to suit and removing that angle thing you have going in the process.

    What do you achieve:

    - your entry to bedroom sees bed space far left, dressing space middle (where the door opens onto), wardrobe right. It's a good segmentation and makes efficient use of space compared to now

    - a "snug" to place the couch so as to watch tv on the opposite wall. You break up the large box shape and somewhat block the view of the kitchen whilst sitting on the couch

    It might not be that you want this particular layout, the point is that a lot can be done, and to find out what can be done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Interesting.

    Thanks for that, I'll have a think about it when I am back in the apartment tomorrow and visualise it properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 dos101


    Covid put this plan on hold but I'm back to it now. In the meantime, I have received permission from the management company to move the door openings (no walls will be moved) and had it checked out by a fire safety expert.

    I'm going to forget about the pocket doors idea as that doesn't work for fire safety regulations. I'll simply be moving the existing door openings.

    What the fire safety consultant and the building management company asked me to do is:

    1> Get a reputable insured builder to do the work.

    2> Have the work overseen by an engineer or architect to certify that the closing of the old door opes is done to building standards and is 30-minute fire resistant.


    I'm going to request quotes for that work here on boards now. If anyone has any recommendations I'd appreciate them!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭embracingLife


    It's interesting that the management company gave you the go ahead but then again the "management company" consists of other apt owners in the building who usually know sfa about construction work 😂, been there, done that, got the t-shirt!


    Also the fire consultant and man Co "asked" you to get the 2 noted items.... What exactly did they say? "asked you" is a bit vague, btw did they directly tell you to get an actual "cert" for the completed work etc and/or instruct/ask you to give or show them a copy of this "cert/certify" etc?

    Cos this work in the apt is solely for your benefit and its straight forward to block up the original doorways.... using standard plasterboard and then skimmed.


    You should ask the man Co what's the status of the condition of the existing walls throughout the building and the apts.... and ask are the any fire safety issues in the building? Purely curious as an apt owner and shareholder in the man Co. 🤣

    I bet there's a few skeletons hiding in the cupboard of the building and they don't want it known, or they're fixing things on an ongoing basis without letting anyone find out etc.... which is beneficial to every apt owner.


    So in conclusion you don't need a "reputable (what a word!) insured builder" to do the job. Jaysus, the word reputable would be replaced by competent which in general most/I'd say all tradesmen are able to do this work properly.

    I doubt youd get a builder to do this in this present environment but carpenters /handyman would easily do this job. In general a standard sheet of plasterboard on either side of the original doorways with few planks wood to bridge the space and then skimmed will be sufficient.

    And getting an architect /engineer to oversee the job and "certify" it is bit overkill. As if they give a toss about it in your apt.

    So if they Ask you to see an actual cert for the completed work - you tell them - yes you got it.... But legally you are not required to show them anything. If they get narky about it then you should ask them to prove to you that there's no fire issues in the building as a whole including common areas etc! I wouldn't hold my breath on them giving you a positive response!

    Before the busy body brigade on here get on their high horses and start moaning about rules and regulations etc re your title deeds when you come to sell the apt etc, then yes for your own sake it's beneficial to put in an updated cert re this work in your title deeds is a good idea in relation to selling the apartment in the future and the buyer's solicitor spotting the altered layout compared to the original plans etc tbh I doubt it will have any problems if you didn't get a "cert for the works" , but any architect /engineer/surveyor will easily write out a cert for this work and not necessarily need them to "oversee" the work.

    Before anyone has a hissy fit over what I said in the above paragraph, I've personal experience of similar work in apts and including solicitors questions relating to buying and selling property. Most solicitors once they've been explained the altered work don't care-its usually a contrary one.

    Also more importantly mainly solicitors are only interested in the location of the external walls of the apartment! The internal layout is not a problem including the layout of the rooms and including whether the rooms were altered from the original layout. I've spoken to several solicitors over the years and they say the internal layout is no big deal.


    I highly recommend that you go and ask a solicitor what if any issues there are to altering the layout of the proposed instead of getting numerous opinions on this site!

    I know for a fact that the main thing solicitors will ask ("should" instead of "will/would" - if they're any use!) is what's the Height of the ceilings in the apartment?! This is way more important than the internal layout.


    So in conclusion: lots of apartments internal layout are altered by successive owners over the years but I will say that it's mostly slightly adjustment to the layout, especially given your example and definitely not big changes cos its a big problem to alter the floor area of the bedrooms and living room - to do that is landing the apartment owner in trouble with the original floor plans and /or /including issues re the mortgage on the property. However that being said doing "slight" alterations to the layout including your work is no big deal and any issues in regards original floor plan of the title deeds would not be a problem.

    I have seen several jobs over the years to apartment layout alterations and most changes are to the living room /kitchen area and there's no legal issues for the apartment owner and includes later selling on the property. This includes personal experience with family members doing same works and later selling the apartment with no problems with buyers solicitors - though in these cases sometimes no certs of works were provided.

    BTW the particular cert that would be provided in relation to this work is a "certificate of compliance".

    (I'm surprised that the Man Co didn't explicitly tell you the actual cert that's "suggested" by them-makes their position in this matter a big laughable to say the least! I'm surprised that they didn't give you a letter written by their solicitor outlining what they suggest you do to carry out the work sufficiently etc in regards to the building regulations! 😂 They sound like amateurs).

    In general these building regulations certs are literally an A4 sheet of paper, (usually of thicker paper than normal) with the certifier's business name at top, titled "cert of compliance" or similar wording and a brief description of the work with wording included that the work has been done to the building regulations etc. Signed by the certifier and on a clear part of the page a rubber stamp of the certifier's business name.

    Simples! As that meerkat used to say.


    BTW in closing there's thousands of apartments in mainly Dublin that were built since the 1990s by a particular well known builder of the so called "shoe box" apartment buildings....... and in the title deeds on the compliance certificate which states that the apartment was built to the building regulations, on the dotted line where the architect /engineer is supposed to sign..... instead the builder himself signed his name! Yet he had No valid construction qualifications! 🤣 So where's the enforcement of what should have been done? Clearly none. Yet there's no issue with these deeds as now after the fact there's literally nothing else to do/can be done.

    What were the original apartment buyers solicitors doing that they didn't say anything publicly at the time? Nada. Que sera, sera...... you can all sing along 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭embracingLife


    Following on from the suggestion to get a fully insured builder.... an oversight there, yes definitely the "insured" tradesman part among anything! Also you should insist that the builder/tradesman actually SHOW you their insurance policy! There is a huge amount of builders & tradesmen who don't have any valid insurance at all and they will claim that they are insured but when you ask them to show you the policy they will refuse! You would not believe the amount of builders /tradesmen who don't have any insurance in this country and I highly recommend that people insist that tradesman show you /email you a copy is so easy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭embracingLife


    Following on from the above, presently to install fire doors and fire frames the fire regulations require that the space between the door frames and the surrounding walls are to be filled with appropriate fire sealing materials which only Fire Sealing companies are allowed to install. These companies will then issue a compliance cert that they filled the space between the walls and door frames with the required materials.

    But to fit the fire frame and doors any tradesmen can do this.

    In general carpenters do these jobs all the time and work with the fire sealing companies all the time.



    You could have saved yourself all this hassle and kept your mouth shut and not said anything to the building Man Co and got a tradesman to remove and reposition the original doors and frames into the new location and blocked up the original door positions and nobody any the wiser.


    But now after telling the Man Co you now have to get new fire doors, fire frames and fire sealing between walls and frames as well as blocking off the old doors opens and have to get a cert for it all from architect/engineer.


    I'd be of the opinion that you may not need architect /engineer to certify the work as long as the tradesman do the job properly. I have experience of this work and as long as the door fitters did the job properly to the regulations I don't see why you have to get any cert. But you obviously don't know anything about this work so you'd be better off getting said property professional to supervise /project manage it etc.

    After all this I highly recommend that you speak to a solicitor on this matter before you do anything further including employ architect /engineer /surveyor etc.

    Also find out for yourself what exactly the Man Co told you re architect /engineer to certify the work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭embracingLife


    God I went to town on that! Should have edited it back more! Suppose the Op has ran to the hills now?!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭Sarn


    Their last post was about a year ago so they could have moved on with the project by now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 410 ✭✭embracingLife


    Was it? Oh I misread the original post. I see its 2021. Thanks,



  • Advertisement
Advertisement