Feeling stuck and hopeless - should I quit my PhD programme?

Corvik

Hi all,

I am just over a year into a PhD programme and I'm giving serious consideration to quitting. I spent a couple of years saving, but sadly it has been a disaster from day one. For starters, my relationship with my supervisor has soured and I feel as though I am being mistreated compared to other students. I attended counselling and their recommendation was to try and change supervisor. However, I'm worried that would affect my standing in my department and that it could affect my funding status.

I'm also now 100% certain that I will pursue a career in academia at any stage of my life. Between the toxic competitiveness from other students, not being able to switch off from work, the lack of job security and the disillusioning publication process in general, there really is very little aside from my research topic that appeals to me. If I were to complete the PhD, I would pursue a career in industry.

There are a few things holding me back from quitting. Firstly, I don't know whether I will owe my department the tuition fees or have to repay the stipend I have received. I would hate to leave the programme from a decent position financially to struggling with debt and with nothing lined up. I am also wary I will have a huge gap on my CV since most experience I have is research related in someway. It's hard seeing classmates who have graduated with me go onto complete masters and obtain full-time jobs while I have been wasting time. It's tempting to save face and postpone having a regular life for this reason, but then I hear of students that take 5+ years to complete their PhDs.

I have no clue of any alternatives apart from maybe applying for a graduate programmes. The only thing I know is that the PhD has made me extremely unhappy and it is affecting my personal relationships. In truth, I don't think I'm in a good enough place mentally to keep pushing. Has anyone else ever been in a similar position?

Redser87

If you're one year in, you're looking at minimum three more years before you're finished. From what you've said, it would be an absolutely miserable time for you - with the result that it would probably take longer, because nobody can work to their best standard when they're so unhappy. Spending another three years sounds like throwing good money after bad (money and time) - if you want to go into industry, I imagine that three years of practical experience would stand to you at least as much if not more than an academic qualification.
I don't know what the story would be on refunding fees/ stipend money but I imagine the former is probably easy enough to find out on your university website. You're certainly not the first person to realise that a PhD is not for you and I think it would be better to leave after a year and have a good answer ready to explain your choice to a prospective employer, than to hold off for a year or two and then decide not to complete it.

LegacyUser

I did one and ended up going into an entry level civil service job that i only needed the leaving cert for. Defo the right choice. You mention this is impacting on your relationships already - i recognised this early on too but as it was the recession i persevered and at the end i had this lovely piece of paper and my very own book with a reputable publisher but no job and no friends. I spent my 20s doing that. I have very few fun memories to share as it was all work, work, work. I advise you to get out now. The advantage for you is there is no recession right now. Too many graduates these days and not enough graduate jobs. Ireland is a very small country. I'd say move on and save your friendships and relationships. That's what really matters in life. Yes, people are usually v impressed when they hear about my book and phd but so what? Nobody really cares unfortunately. Then you get those who are v jealous of it and purposely try to cut you down. If i could turn back time i wouldn't bother. I'd get out and enjoy life. (I am aware this post isn't grammatically correct etc. It's so nice not to have to worry about that **** anymore ;-)) and i think you'll be ok re the stipend. People pull out of phds all the time. You could always be honest to future and employers but emphasise the transferable skills you've learned. It's all good.

never_mind

I’ll probably go against others here but I would advise to finish the PhD and grim and bear it. It is a fabulous thing to have on your CV. Mostly everyone has bad supervisor experiences. A PhD is a lonely and an independent form of study. Don’t allow her or him to dominate your ambition or ability. It might not lead into an academic role but having one opens so many doors- you got accepted into the course and the supervisor took you on and sees value in your ability and project. Keep the head down and three years will be over before you know it.

never_mind

Also as an aside I doubt they’d try to get you to pay back the stipend... talk to your awarding body but I seriously doubt that. You could always defer indefinitely on mental health grounds with a letter from a doctor... they won’t chase you for what probably is 16k + fees.

dudara

I completed my PhD well over a decade ago, and it was simultaneously the best and hardest thing I ever did for myself. It nearly broke me at times. I left academia to work in professional services which turned out to be a great choice for me, but I do not regret doing my PhD in the slightest.

One thing I’m not seeing in your post is how you feel about your chosen topic or area of study. Do you have a passion or interest in your area? Other issues can be overcome, but it’s going to be fundamentally hard to motivate yourself if you’re just not interested in what you signed up for.

ILoveYourVibes

You will be fine whatever you decide. If you quite you still have a great education at that level. If you finish it then that is really cool you have a PHD.

I have zero idea about the financial situation though.

Take a month to think about it.

It's true that after a PHD if you don't go into academia your PHD generally won't be used.

I did one and ended up going into an entry level civil service job that i only needed the leaving cert for.

The above is EXACTLY what happened to my brother. But he is glad he did because he is just the type to want to finish things my dad had a PHD etc and our family is education orientated. But he realizes he didn't need one. It would have killed him to quite it though.

So its actually good decision whatever you decide which is good news really isn't it

fits

PhDs are really hard on mental health. If you are feeling like this in year one I would think it’s not a bad idea to cut your losses and move on. A good relationship with supervisor is essential too. If you don’t want to work in academia the PhD is really of limited value.

Roen

Health first, standing in the dept second. Absolutely change supervisor.
I worked with many, many PhD candidates over the years. It happens more than you'd think.

wetlandsboy

never_mind wrote: »

Also as an aside I doubt they’d try to get you to pay back the stipend... talk to your awarding body but I seriously doubt that. You could always defer indefinitely on mental health grounds with a letter from a doctor... they won’t chase you for what probably is 16k + fees.

I’d be very wary of doing this. If you are working on a project on which your supervisor sought the funding through a competitive process (e.g. H2020, EPA, etc), going over his/her head and talking with the funding body would be a disaster for you and your supervisor. Alternatively, if the award was given to you (e.g. IRC), then this could be a possibility.

Corvik

Thanks to everyone for the advice and words of encouragement, I've got a lot of thinking to do over the summer

Smegging hell

Hi OP, as a recent PhD graduate I think that a positive relationship with a supervisor is very important. I have friends who dropped out of PhD programmes because their relationship with their supervisor broke down, they ended up starting over and re-enrolling in PhD programmes elsewhere. I had a great supervisor and friendly, supportive peers in my department, and that was important especially as the final year of a PhD is very intense and you need that support. I am very proud of my PhD and it's a great intellectual challenge and endeavor, but tbh it's not worth putting yourself through the ringer if you're as unhappy as you describe, given many graduates gravitate towards non-academic careers as noted above.

I strongly doubt that you'll owe tuition fees if you're on IRC as I have friends who left IRC funded PhDs for various reasons and didn't have to repay anything. It may be different with other bodies.

Corvik

DoctorNobody1 wrote: »

I did one and ended up going into an entry level civil service job that i only needed the leaving cert for. Defo the right choice. You mention this is impacting on your relationships already - i recognised this early on too but as it was the recession i persevered and at the end i had this lovely piece of paper and my very own book with a reputable publisher but no job and no friends. I spent my 20s doing that. I have very few fun memories to share as it was all work, work, work. I advise you to get out now. The advantage for you is there is no recession right now. Too many graduates these days and not enough graduate jobs. Ireland is a very small country. I'd say move on and save your friendships and relationships. That's what really matters in life. Yes, people are usually v impressed when they hear about my book and phd but so what? Nobody really cares unfortunately. Then you get those who are v jealous of it and purposely try to cut you down. If i could turn back time i wouldn't bother. I'd get out and enjoy life. (I am aware this post isn't grammatically correct etc. It's so nice not to have to worry about that **** anymore ;-)) and i think you'll be ok re the stipend. People pull out of phds all the time. You could always be honest to future and employers but emphasise the transferable skills you've learned. It's all good.

Thanks for signing up to post this. That's what I've been asking myself - how many friends am I willing drift from, how many family members am I neglecting to visit when they're not getting any younger, and how much strain can my relationship with my partner take when every few weeks something bothers me and gets me down.

Xterminator

my relationship with my supervisor has soured and I feel as though I am being mistreated compared to other students. I attended counselling and their recommendation was to try and change supervisor. However, I'm worried that would affect my standing in my department and that it could affect my funding status.

Hi op

that's the bit that stood out for me. because it appears you would consider quitting before addressing the problem of your supervisor head on. your worried about your standing in the dept and your funding status, but considering quitting instead?

Address the elephant in the room, change your supervisor, and see how it goes. you can still quit later if your mental headspace doesn't improve but give it a try, change things up before throwing in the towel.

Corvik

dudara wrote: »

One thing I’m not seeing in your post is how you feel about your chosen topic or area of study. Do you have a passion or interest in your area? Other issues can be overcome, but it’s going to be fundamentally hard to motivate yourself if you’re just not interested in what you signed up for.

My chosen topic is something I find very interesting, though I'm not sure whether the interest is reciprocated by my supervisor which is holding the project back in many ways. There's a part of me that feels I should be in a slightly different field too

antix80

Hi op. In your entire post, I counted about half a dozen dreads you have of what might go wrong in the future (please google "catastrophizing"), and about 3 of you worrying what other people will think of you (this is sometimes called "mind-reading" - please google "is mind reading toxic"). And you're also comparing yourself to other people, which is the cherry on top in the recipe for unhappiness.

You're a bag of nerves and expending a serious amount of energy overthinking-imagine how simple life would be if you just dedicated 8-9 hours a day, 5 days a week to the task at hand, namely your PhD! Whether you are in academia or in a graduate job or even if you were unemployed, this negative thought process will persist until you unlearn it. I'd suggest you get back to your counselling asap to address the overthinking.

The best thing you can do in the meantime is put out a few of these mental dumpster fires. Try the following:
1. "I don't know whether I will owe my department the tuition fees or have to repay the stipend". Ask them. It's a simple query you can ask the administrator.
2. "my relationship with my supervisor has soured". You need to right/rebuild this relationship. Meet your supervisor as informally as possible. Tell him you're having some difficulty settling into the PhD and ask for some direction. Ask him is he interested in your proposal or would he like you to change it significantly to make it more relevant. Hopefully he'll be refreshingly honest rather than maddeningly diplomatic. But either way, listen more than you speak, don't argue, thank him for his guidance, and then go home and decide if you can do as you're instructed or if you should change supervisor.

woodchuck

OP is there any chance that you could get a masters out of this instead? I know people who have decided not to complete their PhDs, but have had enough research done to write a masters thesis. This may involving staying on for some time longer though (e.g. 6-12 months), so it would depend if you can stick it out for this long. It might be an option though and easier to get through if you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And at least you'd have something to show for the time you've put into it.

Also for what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone owing money back to the colleges when they've quit or left early. You should be able to find out the answer to this question easily enough though.

Corvik

woodchuck wrote: »

OP is there any chance that you could get a masters out of this instead? I know people who have decided not to complete their PhDs, but have had enough research done to write a masters thesis. This may involving staying on for some time longer though (e.g. 6-12 months), so it would depend if you can stick it out for this long. It might be an option though and easier to get through if you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And at least you'd have something to show for the time you've put into it.

Also for what it's worth, I've never heard of anyone owing money back to the colleges when they've quit or left early. You should be able to find out the answer to this question easily enough though.

I've definitely considered this as a possibility and it wouldn't be a bad thing by any means. My issue at the moment is that I'm really struggling to motivate myself to do any work, but hopefully I can turn it around and get back on track

Corvik

antix80 wrote: »

Hi op. In your entire post, I counted about half a dozen dreads you have of what might go wrong in the future (please google "catastrophizing"), and about 3 of you worrying what other people will think of you (this is sometimes called "mind-reading" - please google "is mind reading toxic"). And you're also comparing yourself to other people, which is the cherry on top in the recipe for unhappiness.

You're a bag of nerves and expending a serious amount of energy overthinking-imagine how simple life would be if you just dedicated 8-9 hours a day, 5 days a week to the task at hand, namely your PhD! Whether you are in academia or in a graduate job or even if you were unemployed, this negative thought process will persist until you unlearn it. I'd suggest you get back to your counselling asap to address the overthinking.

The best thing you can do in the meantime is put out a few of these mental dumpster fires. Try the following:
1. "I don't know whether I will owe my department the tuition fees or have to repay the stipend". Ask them. It's a simple query you can ask the administrator.
2. "my relationship with my supervisor has soured". You need to right/rebuild this relationship. Meet your supervisor as informally as possible. Tell him you're having some difficulty settling into the PhD and ask for some direction. Ask him is he interested in your proposal or would he like you to change it significantly to make it more relevant. Hopefully he'll be refreshingly honest rather than maddeningly diplomatic. But either way, listen more than you speak, don't argue, thank him for his guidance, and then go home and decide if you can do as you're instructed or if you should change supervisor.

These are both bad habits of mine and I've found them really difficult to stop over the last couple of years. It does make me think whether I'm at fault or whether my supervisor is at fault. It's difficult to say for sure - I would expand on the issues I've been having but I'm wary of compromising my anonymity

dudara

Corvik wrote: »

My chosen topic is something I find very interesting, though I'm not sure whether the interest is reciprocated by my supervisor which is holding the project back in many ways. There's a part of me that feels I should be in a slightly different field too

This is a positive, you do find your area interesting. I think you need to have the supervisor discussion. It might be a case of resetting the relationship, or even changing your supervisor altogether.

Mine was excellent and really helped me stay going. I knew I was in good shape when I submitted, thanks to how hard he had pushed me.

Corvik

dudara wrote: »

This is a positive, you do find your area interesting. I think you need to have the supervisor discussion. It might be a case of resetting the relationship, or even changing your supervisor altogether.

Mine was excellent and really helped me stay going. I knew I was in good shape when I submitted, thanks to how hard he had pushed me.

Looking at other PhD students over the years, I can really see how important it is. It's brilliant that you had such a positive experience.

I personally don't feel fully supported and it's distant treatment, frostiness and aloofness that are all stopping me from progressing

antix80

Corvik wrote: »

These are both bad habits of mine and I've found them really difficult to stop over the last couple of years. It does make me think whether I'm at fault or whether my supervisor is at fault. It's difficult to say for sure - I would expand on the issues I've been having but I'm wary of compromising my anonymity

There's no need to expand on the issue - because it's just part of the overthinking.. that if only you could analyse something in enough detail it will fix your problem.

I've had the same problems in the past, and I still do. Even when I catch myself, I often indulge in continuing to overthink to the point where I'm miserable. All it does it make you negative. And unfortunately when you're in that mindset, you might come across as aloof or impatient or even argumentative. That can rub people up the wrong way.

Your lecturer might be in the wrong. He might have dismissed your idea offhand because he doesn't find it interesting, or because he just genuinely doesn't think it's a good proposal but he didn't take the time to give you constructive feedback. Is he treating you badly besides? I don't know. I think to be objective you should ask someone else in your group, in a non-accusatory way, for their honest feedback.

Then you'll have a few options:
1. Continue with things as they are.
2. Clear the air with your supervisor and take his feedback on board.
3. Ask to change supervisor
4. If all else fails, maybe the course just isn't for you.

dudara

Corvik wrote: »

I personally don't feel fully supported and it's distant treatment, frostiness and aloofness that are all stopping me from progressing

What I’m going to say next might sound critical or harsh, but I am asking it for a reason.

Your Ph.D. is something that you must own yourself. Your supervisor is not there to be your best friend and confidante. What are your expectations from your supervisor? Is it possible that you’re expecting too much from them rather than seeking answers for yourself.

The previous suggestion of getting an independent view is a good one. It will help you sense check your opinions.

Corvik

dudara wrote: »

What I’m going to say next might sound critical or harsh, but I am asking it for a reason.

Your Ph.D. is something that you must own yourself. Your supervisor is not there to be your best friend and confidante. What are your expectations from your supervisor? Is it possible that you’re expecting too much from them rather than seeking answers for yourself.

The previous suggestion of getting an independent view is a good one. It will help you sense check your opinions.

I'm going to try my best to avoid providing specific information here. To be honest, the main thing I expect really is just for a PhD supervisor to take some interest in my project and my development. If there's a conference opportunity or a paper that could be relevant, consider mentioning it. If I have a question about something or if I make contact, don't treat me like a pest.

There have been times when I have mentioned things that I feel could be beneficial to the project such as consulting other researchers for their expertise, but those suggestions are pushed aside. But the thing that's bothering me most of all is delays, constant delays with feedback and replies to emails. I'm talking weeks rather than days here of course and I'm forced to work on other things when this arises. That's ordinarily not an issue and I'm at my best when I work independently, but when I hear of his other students receiving responses in the meantime it tends to sap my motivation

d8491prj5boyvg

What is your field? If there are good industry prospects, quit the PhD and start a job there. From what you have said you will be much happier. You can put down your PhD time as research assistant time. There will not be a gap. Write up what you have and if it is publishable (even as a review article), your supervisor will likely by happy, your CV will benefit and you may be eligible for an M.Litt. Many programs offer the option to quit after a year with an M.litt - look into that.

Do your research though and have your escape plan mapped out and ask friends about qualifications, experience, etc. required for industry. If you write up an m.litt then try to gear it along the lines that would give you a skillset that an industry employer would like.

Academia requires a very hard skin and determination to succeed. Unless you are fully into it it is not worth it. I agree with many of your criticisms.

It is better to go through the difficult process of jumping to industry early than hanging on if you don't enjoy academia - you will earn more money in the meantime and you will have experience that helps you earn more in the long term.

GalwayGrrrrrl

Is there an option to bow out early and graduate with an MPhil? That would be your best option as you would get a qualification for all your hard work.
If not, try changing supervisors before you give up completely.