Death of ivan cooper

_blaaz

Death of one of organisers of the civil right march that would desend into what would become known as bloody.sunday



https://www.thejournal.ie/ivan-cooper-died-age-northern-ireland-4697936-Jun2019/?section=comment#comments

BalcombeSt4

Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?

steddyeddy

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?

Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. I was sickened to read an article in the Belfast Telegraph mentioning Ivan and Willie Frazer in the same paragraph. The only commonality is that they were both Protestants.

pedroeibar1

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. .

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

_blaaz

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

Quite amazing youve managed to turn a thread about ivan cooper into yet another rant about irish republicans

BalcombeSt4

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

The History books are already praising McKee

From Peter Taylors book Provos:

"By the spring of 1971, the Provisionals' bombing campaign in Belfast City center had got fully under way, although not yet with the savagery later associated with the IRA's murderous car bombs.
Billy McKee, the Provisionals' Belfast Brigade commander until his arrest on April 15, 1971, insisted that that civilian casualties should be avoided at all costs. To McKee it was a morale question: civilians were non-combatants."

Later on in the book

Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973.
Peter Taylor asks Billy mcKee o on the thought process behind taking the war to England.
"There had been a dicussion early on about bombing England. I thought we should wait until there was a crisis (in the IRA) before we should start. I agreed with the strategy but I didn't agree with bombing civilians, pubs that were full of people and so forth. I didn't condone that. Blowing up the Houses of Parliament wouldn't have made any difference to me but not ordinary civilians."

Pretty much how I felt about to.

The History Books will write with Ivan Cooper withe pride & so they should, he had the guts to stand up to his families horrible ideology just like Ronnie Bunting did a few years after him, they'll both be remembered with fondness.

pedroeibar1

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

The History books are already praising McKee .....Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973..........

This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.

BalcombeSt4

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.

Hahahahaha. You're the one who brought McKee up the first place. In my first post in this thread I mentioned nothing about Republicans, the person to do that was you. And it's not "whitewashing" it's a 23 year old book written by one of Britain's most respected journalist. You tried to paint McKee as blood thirsty maniac lusting for innocent blood & you've been debunked several times by in these threads & Peter Taylor.

And you have no idea what my ideology is. I have more in common with British working class socialists or ordinary people from London, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow etc... than I do with right-wingers from Dublin or Belfast, certainly more than this neoFascist Irish Nationalist Party, which is a new version of the Democratic Right. Tony Benn remains my political hero, head and shoulders above anyone in Sinn Fein with Ken Livingstone a close second.

steddyeddy

Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:

You have destroyed the civil rights movement, and you've given the IRA the biggest victory it will ever have. All over this city tonight, young men... boys will be joining the IRA, and you will reap a whirlwind.

steddyeddy

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

Why did you bring McKee into the thread?

Regarding people joining the IRA post bloody Sunday my only offering is that it was unavoidable that people would do that when the peaceful route is destroyed.

BalcombeSt4

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:

Cooper was all about peaceful protest alright, but he also believed in defending yourself from aggression, which is why he set up the Derry Citizens Action Committee in 1969 after the January 1969 Burntollet ambush in which police helped the loyalists, when they were on a peaceful civil rights march & then the RUC were running into people's homes in the Bogside & the Creggan & nationalist enclave of the Waterside and beat people to a pulp and beat to death 67 year old Francis McCloskey & Sammy Devenny who's young teenage girls were beaten as well.

Other Defence Committees sprang up in Belfast & Coalisland but the Derry one was by far the best. Thanks mainly due to the organzing skills of Cooper no unwanted thugs entered Free Derry & the barricades were manned 24/7 and there was hardly any crime.

1972 started with a shooting massacre of innocent people in Derry by the British Army the Para's killed 14 people in the Bogside in January, and it ended with a massacre of innocent people in Derry in December, when the UFF shoot 9 people with a Sterling submachine gun in Annie's Bar Massacre in the Waterside just across the bridge from where the Bloody Sunday massacre happened, now the Sterling was a British Army weapon.

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Death of one of organisers of the civil right march that would desend into what would become known as bloody.sunday

Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it

Just wondering if the 2 ruc men had not been shot in Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday, or if the March had been postponed for a few weeks as a mark of respect, or if there had been no rioting before firing started, would the day have turned out differently?

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

Unlikely given parachutes record across all its tours in NI particularly.the early 70s



Blaming ivan cooper as your attempting to do is unfairly absorbing the british army of reaponsibilty

If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?

Thats no excuse for what they done (if they cant handle it,maybe ahouldnt joined army?)and trying to blame ivan cooper is just.about the stupiest thing ive read in a long time

janfebmar

Blaze, you have not answered the question.

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

I see little point on answering questions on makey-up.scenarios on a factual forum??

The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city. I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city.

I seen yous post this,time and again...im.failing to see what it has to do with civil rights movement...other than to conflate unionist baiting by linking civil rights to republicanism??

I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?

Its unlikely,we will ever know....but given record of parachutes record....i doubt it...they killed far more civilans than any other regiment afaik

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

I seen yous post this,time and again...im.failing to see what it has to do with civil rights movement...other than to conflate unionist baiting by linking civil rights to republicanism??




Its unlikely,we will ever know....but given record of parachutes record....i doubt it...they killed far more civilans than any other regiment afaik

We know because at peaceful marches, without rioting and without the threat of attacks on security forces, people were not murdered.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

We know because at peaceful marches, without rioting and without the threat of attacks on security forces, people were not murdered.

And how many of them.were over seen by parachute regiment?


Your comparing apples and oranges mate

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

And how many of them.were over seen by parachute regiment?

If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.

Thats right ya....blame a few young lads for soldiers shooting em


Or blame organisers of the peaceful protest for civil rights for soldiers shooting em



When pointed out the parachutes (and blackwatch) were at root and scene of worst dusturbemces....blame everyone else but them....the worst susturbemces in coalisland through the troubles were in 1995 were parachute regiment were stationes there and took full force of human shield to stop em finishing off killing another unarmed youth after shooting him in stomach


But ya lets blame the locals for forgien soldiers shooting em,if that is what pleases you

riffmongous

Mod: This is becoming more suited to politics/current affairs than history.

BalcombeSt4

janfebmar wrote: »

Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

Tensions were high long before Bloody Sunday, 39 people were killed in December 1971 alone.
Including 15 killed in McGurks bar, 4 killed on the Shankill, UUP Senator John Barnhill was the first politican killed in Ireland since the 1920's, a civilian was killed by the Army in Ardoyne. Bombs were going off in Derry & Belfast pretty much every day.
Tensions were high since the British government introduced internment in August in which 22 people were killed between the 9th - 11th, 17 of them civilians by the British Army & 11 of those from the infamous Ballymurphy massacre, so tensions were no more high or less high on Bloody Sunday.

BalcombeSt4

janfebmar wrote: »

The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city. I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?

Well they took a priest waving a white flag at them in Ballymurphy as provocation and shot him dead, so they didn't need much petrol for the fire, shot 5 at Springhill another 3 in Newry, a deaf mute in Strabane, a 12 year old girl going to church, and I could go on but I wont,
There would have been a massacre because of the situation created by 50 years of Unionist misrule which helped to create a revolutionary fevour in Nationalist ghetto areas, and the awful handling of the situation by the British government who admitted they had no clue about the country they claimed was apart of their state to govern.

BalcombeSt4

janfebmar wrote: »

If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.

I love the creative way you use language here, security forces get murdered but Irish people just magically die on Bloody Sunday.

Ivan Cooper (and a lot of other people on that day) would be spinning in his grave at this cold, heartless epitah of a giant of the NICRA.

Del.Monte

riffmongous wrote: »

Mod: This is becoming more suited to politics/current affairs than history.

Better still, AH.

pedroeibar1

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

… 39 people were killed…Including 15 …. 4 killed on the Shankill, ….Senator … the first politican …. a civilian was killed b…22 people were killed between the 9th - 11th….

I really don’t get your fascination with bodycount, not just in this but in the majority of your posts. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ivan Cooper, unless I'm missing something?

Del.Monte wrote: »

Better still, AH.

Nope. Perhaps Creative Writing, because Balcombe is dreaming again when you read this nonsense :-

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well they took a priest waving a white flag at them in Ballymurphy as provocation and shot him dead.

Fr. Daly went on to be a bishop and died just a few years ago. Maybe thread should be moved to Paranormal?

However I do agree that H & H certainly would be better off without this stuff.

janfebmar

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I love the creative way you use language here, security forces get murdered but Irish people just magically die on Bloody Sunday.

.

They were all murdered. I love the way you insinuate thr people that the security force people who were murdered 2 days before Bloody Friday in Derry were not Irish : they were Irish, born on the island of Ireland and were catholic and protestant people. Their murder was planned and advance, and they were shot in the back by people who were dressed as civilians and blended back in the civilian population. Ivan Cooper did not condone any of the murders. In my opinion though he and others should have postponed the March, which turned in to a riot and murder scene.

volchitsa

janfebmar wrote: »

If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?

Yes.

The Ballymurphy killings by the same regiment six months previous show that they intended to commit murder just because they could.

_blaaz

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

However I do agree that H & H certainly would be better off without this stuff.

Nothing quite like censorship tbf

janfebmar

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes.

The Ballymurphy killings by the same regiment six ....

There were numerous bullet hole marks and evidence of scorch marks (petrol bombs) on the security force base after the battles in Ballymurphy, I suppose you will say the security forces done that themselves too.

volchitsa

janfebmar wrote: »

There were numerous bullet hole marks and evidence of scorch marks (petrol bombs) on the security force base after the battles in Ballymurphy, I suppose you will say the security forces done that themselves too.

"Alternative facts", eh?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_massacre

And FYI, the priest that another poster mentioned who was killed in Ballymurphy was not Fr Edward Daly, that was the priest who was fired at but not hit in Derry.
It was Fr Hugh Mullan who was murdered by the Parachute Regiment in Ballymurphy.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

There were numerous bullet hole marks and evidence of scorch marks (petrol bombs) on the security force base after the battles in Ballymurphy, I suppose you will say the security forces done that themselves too.

Where is the base in ballymurphy?

janfebmar

volchitsa wrote: »

And FYI, the priest that another poster mentioned who was killed in Ballymurphy was not Fr Edward Daly, that was the priest who was fired at but n....

Fr Edward Daly ( who later became Bishop Daly ) was not hit or injured in Derry, but he was there and later testified he saw a Republcan gunman (unseen to the British soldiers) fire shots at the soldiers. That " did not make him the most popular man in Derry" he later said.

volchitsa

janfebmar wrote: »

Fr Edward Daly ( who later became Bishop Daly ) was not hit or injured in Derry, but he was there and later testified he saw a Republcan gunman (unseen to the British soldiers) fire shots at the soldiers. That " did not make him the most popular man in Derry" he later said.

I know very well who Fr Daly was, and he was not in Ballymurphy. You misunderstood (possibly deliberately?) which priest the other poster was referring to when he mentioned a priest who was killed by the Parachute regiment in Ballymurphy. That was Fr Hugh Mullan. He and the others they killed were by no means all killed during a "battle" at the army base. That would have been some famous battle as it would have had to last at least 36 hours.

But the Parachutists were the same regiment who went on to kill more civilians in Bloody Sunday, which is why it's very likely that Bloody Sunday would have happened regardless of any alleged attacks on the army on that day.

BTW, here is his account of the killings. It's a little long and I haven't read it for some years, so perhaps you'll be kind enough to point out where he makes that claim, as I can't find it.

janfebmar

volchitsa wrote: »

I know very well who Fr Daly was, and he was not in Ballymurphy.

You thought I did not know who Fr Daly was and you tried to tell me (post no. 34), so it was you who misunderstood. We all know he was not in Ballymurphy. No need therefore to read the rest of your post.

volchitsa

janfebmar wrote: »

You thought I did not know who Fr Daly was and you tried to tell me (post no. 34), so it was you who misunderstood. We all know he was not in Ballymurphy. No need therefore to read the rest of your post.

Not what happened at all - another poster pointed out that the same regiment had previously killed a priest in Ballymurphy (which is true) and you made an eejit of yourself trying to be sarcastic about what you wrongly thought was his mistake.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Nope. Perhaps Creative Writing, because Balcombe is dreaming again when you read this nonsense :-

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well they took a priest waving a white flag at them in Ballymurphy as provocation and shot him dead, so they didn't need much petrol for the fire,

Fr. Daly went on to be a bishop and died just a few years ago. Maybe thread should be moved to Paranormal?

I saw that what you clearly didn't know was who Fr Hugh Mullan was, rather than Eddie Daly. And possibly you also didn't know that the same regiment was involved in both massacres.

So now we've established that the mistake was yours, you can safely read the rest of my post.

janfebmar

volchitsa wrote: »

I saw that what you clearly didn't know was who Fr Hugh Mullan was, rather than Eddie Daly. And possibly you also didn't know that the same regiment was involved

Of course I knew the history of Fr Mullan and the B. Army, people like you never stop going on about it.
What about the priest suspected of the Claudy bombing , if you want to pick out specific priests?

volchitsa

janfebmar wrote: »

Of course I knew the history of Fr Mullan and the B. Army, people like you never stop going on about it.
What about the priest suspected of the Claudy bombing , if you want to pick out specific priests?

So why did you think the poster was talking about Fr Daly when he was talking about Fr Mullan? We can all read, you know.

_blaaz

volchitsa wrote: »

So why did you think the poster was talking about Fr Daly when he was talking about Fr Mullan? We can all read, you know.

How else was he/she going to try blame ivan cooper for the claudy bombing then?

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

How else was he/she going to try blame ivan cooper for the claudy bombing then?

Ivan Cooper had nothing to do with the Claudy bombing. The main suspect in the sectarian Claudy bombings was a Catholic priest, Fr. Chesney. He got away with it because of a secret agreement between the Catholic Cardinal William Conway and the then Northern Ireland Secretary Willie Whitelaw.

They felt that protecting the priest was the lesser of two evils.

As someone else said "During that turbulent period in 1972, many believed that Northern Ireland was on the brink of a sectarian civil war. Almost 500 people were killed that year.

If a priest had been arrested in connection with the Claudy bomb, it could have pushed community relations over the edge.

Loyalist paramilitaries may have used it as an excuse for more attacks on Catholics. The IRA would have retaliated and turmoil would have ensued."

Quote: "Extracts from the state documents in the report by the NI Police Ombudsman confirm that even traces of explosives found in his car were not enough to get him arrested.

Intelligence information not only linked him to the Claudy bombing in which nine people died, it also indicated that he was the "quarter master and director of operations of the south Derry Provisional IRA".

Nothing to do with Ivan Cooper.

_blaaz

janfebmar wrote: »

Ivan Cooper had nothing to do with the Claudy bombing

We all know that...but your the only one brought it up in a thread about him....now backtravking heavily copying and pasting more rubbish about an unrelated person to the thread when called out on it


Kinda like how you also like to blame civil rights protesters for getting emselves short....ive little patience to play your bigoted games tbh mate

janfebmar

_blaaz wrote: »

We all know that...but your the only one brought it up in a thread about him...

It was you who mentioned Coalisland and Ballymurphy : I did not bring up those places, but when they were brought up, I asked "What about the priest suspected of the Claudy bombing , if you want to pick out specific priests?"

_blaaz wrote: »

Kinda like how you also like to blame civil rights protesters for getting emselves short...

I never blamed "civil rights protesters for getting emselves short"

riffmongous

Thread has gone irrecoverabley off-topic