Employer sometimes takes our tips

Fite Fuaite

I have been working in a hotel, part-time for two years. It’s a five star hotel resort and spa here in Ireland. It was brought to my attention, that the finance department sometimes dip into our credit card tips to balance the till, if a guest leaves without paying, or if a guest accidentally assigns the wrong room number to their bill, which actually happens quite often.
Obviously, this is hugely unethical, and in light of recent legislation that has been passed, I think it’s now illegal.
Management has changed a lot in the time that I have worked there (hospitality is a very transient industry). Even though I am aware of this issue I have never brought it up with anyone. I intend to bide my time and keep quiet, and then when I decide to leave the job, I will approach the HR department to address the issue, the idea being that it makes no difference at the point whether I create a fuss or not, as I will be leaving anyway.
The reason I wouldn’t do it before then, is that I need to keep them on my side for various reasons.
We get our credit card tips once a month in our weekly paycheque, and it is very hard to keep track of exactly what you have earned, because the tips are ‘pooled’ amongst all the staff.

My question is this, am I legally entitled to view the finance departments records if I ask to do so? Also, will the finance department definitely have everything recorded, going back two years?

Please, no judgement on my decision not to speak up about this for so long. Rest assured, I will not let this slide, and if I feel that I don’t get an honest or satisfactory response when I do bring it up, I will calmly tell them that I will name and shame the hotel on every public platform available to me, and, most damning of all, that I will call Joe Duffy! 😉

coylemj

Fite Fuaite wrote: »

.... if I feel that I don’t get an honest or satisfactory response when I do bring it up, I will calmly tell them that I will name and shame the hotel on every public platform available to me, and, most damning of all, that I will call Joe Duffy! ��

Hotel/restaurant keeps tip - stale news. Why don't the staff do like they do in the Ivy in Dawson St. - ask the customers for cash tips?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublins-ivy-restaurant-gets-into-thorny-debate-over-staff-tips-37556985.html

You're grossly overestimating the effect a call to Joe Duffy would have. And that's assuming that he puts you on the air and allows you to name the place. Which is highly unlikely.

Peregrinus

See, this is why God created trade unions. You need to join one.

donegal_man

Fite Fuaite wrote: »

......It was brought to my attention, that the finance department sometimes dip into our credit card tips to balance the till, if a guest leaves without paying, or if a guest accidentally assigns the wrong room number to their bill...

Back many years ago when I was a student and worked for a summer in one of Donegal's best known and highly rated hotels any tip that was added to a credit card was automatically included as part of the takings. The same applied to tips left by wedding/coach parties. If the wrong room number was assigned to a bill then it was deducted from the wages of "the guilty party".
No attempting in any way to justify the action of the OP's employer.

Del2005

Peregrinus wrote: »

See, this is why God created trade unions. You need to join one.

Unless there are other members of the trade union in the hotel the trade union won't be able to help the OP and since it appears to be common practice in the hospitality trade why aren't the trade unions acting on it already?

rock22

Del2005 wrote: »

Unless there are other members of the trade union in the hotel the trade union won't be able to help the OP..

That's not necessarily true. A single worker can be represented by a union.

Del2005 wrote: »

since it appears to be common practice in the hospitality trade why aren't the trade unions acting on it already?

All trade unions involved are acting on it. Are you aware of any relevant trade union who does not support workers right to tips?

I would suggest that you contact SIPTU, mandate Unite or your favourite union

Also , it might be worth contacting Senator Paul Gavan, Sine Fein, regarding his senate bill to legislate in this area. This bill was also supported by Labour senators.

Senator Gavan is reported as saying ".. this would not have been possible without the public support of ICTU, SIPTU, Mandate, Unite and the USI".

daheff

if you go nuclear on this expect to find yourself not getting hours anymore... and find it hard to get a new job in the industry

softly softly approach is needed here

mention it casually to your manager that your share of tips doesnt seem to be right

Mrs OBumble

It's not illegal. Not yet anyways.

Arguable about the ethics, but that's for a different forum.

In 5 star, it's your job to know who the guests are and made damn sure that right room number is assigned. And I don't believe that guests leave without paying.

You have no right to see the Finance department records.

Fite Fuaite

rock22 wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. A single worker can be represented by a union.



All trade unions involved are acting on it. Are you aware of any relevant trade union who does not support workers right to tips?

I would suggest that you contact SIPTU, mandate Unite or your favourite union

Also , it might be worth contacting Senator Paul Gavan, Sine Fein, regarding his senate bill to legislate in this area. This bill was also supported by Labour senators.

Senator Gavan is reported as saying ".. this would not have been possible without the public support of ICTU, SIPTU, Mandate, Unite and the USI".

Thank you so much, I really appreciate you taking the time to give me some helpful advice!

.......

Fite Fuaite wrote: »

It was brought to my attention, that the finance department sometimes dip into our credit card tips to balance the till, if a guest leaves without paying, or if a guest accidentally assigns the wrong room number to their bill, which actually happens quite often.

Who brought this to your attention?

Do you have any proof?

I dont think the new bill has been passed into legislation yet, and Im also not clear what it dictates about a company using tips to make up lost revenue.

L1011

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And I don't believe that guests leave without paying.

Your faith in the honesty of the people who go to 5 star hotels is amusing and horrifying in equal measure.

Del2005

rock22 wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. A single worker can be represented by a union.



All trade unions involved are acting on it. Are you aware of any relevant trade union who does not support workers right to tips?

I would suggest that you contact SIPTU, mandate Unite or your favourite union

Also , it might be worth contacting Senator Paul Gavan, Sine Fein, regarding his senate bill to legislate in this area. This bill was also supported by Labour senators.

Senator Gavan is reported as saying ".. this would not have been possible without the public support of ICTU, SIPTU, Mandate, Unite and the USI".

A single worker can be represented. But what can the union do when they can't use their nuclear weapon?

The proposed legislation is a double edged sword. Yes the management can't take tips, but revenue will and as lot are cash it'll be like the USA where they tax you on the assumption of getting tips and could push people into higher tax brackets.

coylemj

Del2005 wrote: »

... but revenue will and as lot are cash it'll be like the USA where they tax you on the assumption of getting tips and could push people into higher tax brackets.

+1 and possibly push your official income above the threshold for income/family support and/or a medical card.

The people in the Low Pay Commission have been waving the red flag of 'unintended consequences' but Sinn Fein have forged ahead, probably for the cheap publicity they get out of it.

The Low Pay Commission has advised the Government against supporting the Opposition bill, due to some unintended consequences it may have, such as reclassifying service charges, and possible knock-on tax implications for service workers.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/legislation-set-to-ban-employers-making-up-wages-with-tips-1.3922532

Fite Fuaite

daheff wrote: »

if you go nuclear on this expect to find yourself not getting hours anymore... and find it hard to get a new job in the industry

softly softly approach is needed here

mention it casually to your manager that your share of tips doesnt seem to be right

That’s why I’m not raising the issue until I decide I’m ready to leave the job, and I will never work in the industry again once I’m gone, I’m starting my ‘real’ career.
I agree though, ‘softly softly’ is best.

Fite Fuaite

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

It's not illegal. Not yet anyways.

Arguable about the ethics, but that's for a different forum.

In 5 star, it's your job to know who the guests are and made damn sure that right room number is assigned. And I don't believe that guests leave without paying.

You have no right to see the Finance department records.

You have no idea what you’re talking about with regard to the right room numbers being assigned, and that being my job. If a guest leaves the wrong room number, this regularly doesn’t get established until after they leave the restaurant. We don’t have enough staff and we don’t have a host at the door to stop people as they leave to ensure everything has been settled correctly. Is that my fault? No, it’s poor management and organisation by the hotel. Should I pay for that out of my pocket? No.

Thank you for answering my question about the Finance Department, that’s exactly what I wanted to know.

Fite Fuaite

coylemj wrote: »

Hotel/restaurant keeps tip - stale news. Why don't the staff do like they do in the Ivy in Dawson St. - ask the customers for cash tips?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublins-ivy-restaurant-gets-into-thorny-debate-over-staff-tips-37556985.html

You're grossly overestimating the effect a call to Joe Duffy would have. And that's assuming that he puts you on the air and allows you to name the place. Which is highly unlikely.

Nobody carries cash anymore, what is this, 1995?
I am definitely stealing the expression, ‘ stale news’. I love it and will slip it into conversation at some stage tomorrow...”oh come on guys, that is SUCH stale news”.
I was joking about the Joe Duffy phonecall, which I thought was obvious by the smiley face emoji, but I guess that didn’t come across. I think in this day and age, Facebook and Twitter are just as lethal as Joe.

Fite Fuaite

....... wrote: »

Who brought this to your attention?

Do you have any proof?

I dont think the new bill has been passed into legislation yet, and Im also not clear what it dictates about a company using tips to make up lost revenue.

Yes, I have proof. WhatsApp messages from a manager (who has now ceased employment at the hotel) saying something along the lines of
“Guys, we couldn’t figure out which room number this bill was supposed to go to, so finance are taking the payment from our credit card tips”.

GM228

Fite Fuaite wrote: »

Obviously, this is hugely unethical, and in light of recent legislation that has been passed, I think it’s now illegal.

There is no legislation passed yet, the Bill has recently passed the Dáil Second Stage, it is not law yet.

rock22 wrote: »

That's not necessarily true. A single worker can be represented by a union

Be that as it may, an employer does not have to recognise or engage with that workers union.

....... wrote: »

Im also not clear what it dictates about a company using tips to make up lost revenue.

When passed the employer will not be allowed to deduct for any reason unless for a reason allowed for under a collective agreement.

Del2005 wrote: »

The proposed legislation is a double edged sword. Yes the management can't take tips, but revenue will and as lot are cash it'll be like the USA where they tax you on the assumption of getting tips and could push people into higher tax brackets.

You can't be taxed on an assumed income, only actual declared income and the Bill does not in any way change tax liabilities as tips are already a tax liability which you are already supposed to declare.

---

All that aside, the current position here is (or at least was) that any tiips received by an employee becomes the property of the employer under common law and equity, a long standing position as per the Diplock vs Blackburn (1811) 3 Camp 43 case.

This is due to an employees duty to account to the employer for property, a well-recognised duty which may be considered an aspect of the implied contractual duty of fidelity and good faith, in 1951 (in the UK) the courts confirmed that failure to account was indeed a breach of the duty of fidelity and good faith which itself was previously confirmed to be a valid reason for dismissal.

The employees duty to account means that if an employee receives money or other property in connection with their employment, that money or property belongs to the employer who gains legal possession of it as soon as it passes into the hands of the employee. Provided the property is received as a consequence of employment, the employee cannot assert title as against their employer. The exception to this is the Tronc distribution system in which case the employer is no more than a custodian as opposed to owner of monies received.

And further to that where an employee agreed to perform services for a third party during the time they were obliged to work for their employer, the employer is entitled to the proceeds of the services earned by their employee, this is a common law provision dating back to the Thompson vs Havelock [1808] 1 Camp 527 case, technically still good law, but I know of no such cases in over 150 years on that matter.

coylemj

Fite Fuaite wrote: »

Nobody carries cash anymore, what is this, 1995?

Nobody carries cash anymore? Ever been to an Irish pub?

Plenty of people pay for meals with plastic but always tip with cash. Me included.

GM228

coylemj wrote: »

Nobody carries cash anymore? Ever been to an Irish pub?

Plenty of people pay for meals with plastic but always tip with cash. Me included.

+1, otherwise I wonder what is happening to the 3,738,000,000 different Euro notes printed in 2019 alone or the milions of Euro coins minted each year?

We are far from a cashless country.

Always Tired

As someone who has worked in a few Irish hotels, I have some non legal advice for you:

1) If you want to be treated decently, and if you want an employer who follows the rules regarding employees rights, don't work in an Irish hotel. They are some of the worst places to work I've ever been in.

2) If you don't want your hours cut, etc. don't say anything. If you think that sucks then see #1.

They tend to get away with all this because so many of the workers are non-Irish and they don't question stuff as much (IME they don't expect to be treated well. Whether or not that is why they are so popular in hotels is a chicken or egg situation)

I had a manager try to make me and 2 other lads pay for a short till out of our actual wages - she said if we didn't it would come out of her (salaried) wage and she couldn't afford it as she was getting married. Yet, we, college students on min wage, part time hours were apparently flush with cash.

Mrs OBumble

coylemj wrote: »

Plenty of people pay for meals with plastic but always tip with cash. Me included.

Do you visit five-star establishments often?

Mod
Pls keep this to discussion rather than personalising it

joeysoap

The much missed AA Gill recommended that tips were paid in cash. I noticed last year in USA, (where tipping is savage) that a few people in one restaurant were paying the tip separately , by credit card. They seemed to pay the bill and then the waiter brought a tips bill separately. Savage though, 18, 20 or 22% . Those were the choices,

Fite Fuaite

GM228 wrote: »

There is no legislation passed yet, the Bill has recently passed the Dáil Second Stage, it is not law yet.





Be that as it may, an employer does not have to recognise or engage with that workers union.





When passed the employer will not be allowed to deduct for any reason unless for a reason allowed for under a collective agreement.





You can't be taxed on an assumed income, only actual declared income and the Bill does not in any way change tax liabilities as tips are already a tax liability which you are already supposed to declare.

---

All that aside, the current position here is (or at least was) that any tiips received by an employee becomes the property of the employer under common law and equity, a long standing position as per the Diplock vs Blackburn (1811) 3 Camp 43 case.

This is due to an employees duty to account to the employer for property, a well-recognised duty which may be considered an aspect of the implied contractual duty of fidelity and good faith, in 1951 (in the UK) the courts confirmed that failure to account was indeed a breach of the duty of fidelity and good faith which itself was previously confirmed to be a valid reason for dismissal.

The employees duty to account means that if an employee receives money or other property in connection with their employment, that money or property belongs to the employer who gains legal possession of it as soon as it passes into the hands of the employee. Provided the property is received as a consequence of employment, the employee cannot assert title as against their employer. The exception to this is the Tronc distribution system in which case the employer is no more than a custodian as opposed to owner of monies received.

And further to that where an employee agreed to perform services for a third party during the time they were obliged to work for their employer, the employer is entitled to the proceeds of the services earned by their employee, this is a common law provision dating back to the Thompson vs Havelock [1808] 1 Camp 527 case, technically still good law, but I know of no such cases in over 150 years on that matter.

Thank you so much for all that information, I really appreciate it!

Fite Fuaite

Always Tired wrote: »

As someone who has worked in a few Irish hotels, I have some non legal advice for you:

1) If you want to be treated decently, and if you want an employer who follows the rules regarding employees rights, don't work in an Irish hotel. They are some of the worst places to work I've ever been in.

2) If you don't want your hours cut, etc. don't say anything. If you think that sucks then see #1.

They tend to get away with all this because so many of the workers are non-Irish and they don't question stuff as much (IME they don't expect to be treated well. Whether or not that is why they are so popular in hotels is a chicken or egg situation)

I had a manager try to make me and 2 other lads pay for a short till out of our actual wages - she said if we didn't it would come out of her (salaried) wage and she couldn't afford it as she was getting married. Yet, we, college students on min wage, part time hours were apparently flush with cash.

I, 100%, agree with everything you said.

antoinolachtnai

GM228 wrote: »

The employees duty to account means that if an employee receives money or other property in connection with their employment, that money or property belongs to the employer who gains legal possession of it as soon as it passes into the hands of the employee. Provided the property is received as a consequence of employment, the employee cannot assert title as against their employer. The exception to this is the Tronc distribution system in which case the employer is no more than a custodian as opposed to owner of monies received.

What would be the legal basis of the tronc? The employment contract?

GM228

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What would be the legal basis of the tronc? The employment contract?

Custom and practice, implied terms.