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Knee Injury - Stem cells

  • 25-06-2019 5:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭


    Has anybody done this yet here?

    Clinic in Dublin doing it - Medica

    Based off of work done at Trinity & Co


    Another promising device in the works - https://www.cartiheal.com/agili-c/


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    Has anybody done this yet here?

    Clinic in Dublin doing it - Medica

    Based off of work done at Trinity & Co


    Another promising device in the works - https://www.cartiheal.com/agili-c/

    I haven't had this treatment, but I have looked into it.
    Watching the knee testimony clip. I would question how it works so fast. Client said he had no pain 20 mins after treatment. Stem cell works re building tissue or cartilage, this doesn't happen in 20 mins. It takes months.

    You should also take into account the vast majority of clients getting treatment are older people who after treatment will only do some short walks and a bit of gardening. And not run 30 plus miles a week.
    This is not to say that this treatment is not effective.
    If you are thinking if it for meniscus, osteoarthritis or osteochonderal problems then I would advise you to research it extenstively if you are planning to go running after it.
    Ask the Doctor for before and after mri imaging to prove re growth.
    Also be aware that this is not a quick fix. If the treatment is successful it will still take about 6 months minimum before you can do any training at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    I haven't had this treatment, but I have looked into it.
    Watching the knee testimony clip. I would question how it works so fast. Client said he had no pain 20 mins after treatment. Stem cell works re building tissue or cartilage, this doesn't happen in 20 mins. It takes months.

    You should also take into account the vast majority of clients getting treatment are older people who after treatment will only do some short walks and a bit of gardening. And not run 30 plus miles a week.
    This is not to say that this treatment is not effective.
    If you are thinking if it for meniscus, osteoarthritis or osteochonderal problems then I would advise you to research it extenstively if you are planning to go running after it.
    Ask the Doctor for before and after mri imaging to prove re growth.
    Also be aware that this is not a quick fix. If the treatment is successful it will still take about 6 months minimum before you can do any training at all.
    Site is pretty good with info actually.

    Very stong anti inflammatory affect from most treatments so that's probably the 20 min vid you watched (didn't see that one yet myself), NO weight bearing for 2 weeks, improvement starts at 1/3 months, full affect of treatment at 6 months, it says all that.

    My running days are over I know that, haven't accepted it yet but...this is as good as it gets for the foreseeable breakthrough wise, theirs nothing else coming only variations of this.....

    Thanks for reply.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    Site is pretty good with info actually.

    Very stong anti inflammatory affect from most treatments so that's probably the 20 min vid you watched (didn't see that one yet myself), NO weight bearing for 2 weeks, improvement starts at 1/3 months, full affect of treatment at 6 months, it says all that.

    My running days are over I know that, haven't accepted it yet but...this is as good as it gets for the foreseeable breakthrough wise, theirs nothing else coming only variations of this.....

    Thanks for reply.

    Theres no doubt that they will be good with the information, they are try to sell you there product.

    I know 1st hand as I have been for a consultation in the clinic in Cork.

    Having no pain after 20 mins post treatment is most likely down to anesthetic effect.

    In the consultation I had. I did ask to see mri evidence to see cartilage regrowth, while the consultant said they had evidence, he couldn't show me. Also he said running was advisable post treatment. This is why I went to him in the 1st place as I'm not in pain on a daily basis.

    Do do mind me asking what is wrong you with you knee. Did you have am mri ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,830 ✭✭✭daheff


    i dont see any price lists.... any idea of costs


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    daheff wrote: »
    i dont see any price lists.... any idea of costs

    I was quoted €3,000 per treatment site.
    So one knee was €3,000, two was €6,000


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Theres no doubt that they will be good with the information, they are try to sell you there product.

    I know 1st hand as I have been for a consultation in the clinic in Cork.

    Having no pain after 20 mins post treatment is most likely down to anesthetic effect.

    In the consultation I had. I did ask to see mri evidence to see cartilage regrowth, while the consultant said they had evidence, he couldn't show me. Also he said running was advisable post treatment. This is why I went to him in the 1st place as I'm not in pain on a daily basis.

    Do do mind me asking what is wrong you with you knee. Did you have am mri ?
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4178263/#!po=88.4146

    Good comprehensive write up.


    I'm just gone 30 with a degenerative knee, have an mri. This is going to have a say in everything for the rest of my life, disabled/cost a fortune....cancer would nearly be less of a sentence FFS.

    Price is extremely prohibitive. Current generation stems are multiple procedures and hip fractures though rare are a risk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Government should set up clinic for this, looks like earlier done the better, would save a fortune with a more active population versus the disaster we currently have in orthopedic for many.

    Do both knees/hips even of anyone unfortunate enough to go through the doors.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4178263/#!po=88.4146

    Good comprehensive write up.


    I'm just gone 30 with a degenerative knee, have an mri. This is going to have a say in everything for the rest of my life, disabled/cost a fortune....cancer would nearly be less of a sentence FFS.

    Price is extremely prohibitive. Current generation stems are multiple procedures and hip fractures though rare are a risk.

    I think you maybe some what dramatic with the cancer comment.

    There is no doubt that there is some merit to stem cell treatment, however its early days yet.
    It has had some positive research but also some very inclusive studies.
    Some of these are referenced in the link you attached.

    Stem cells wasnt going to be ab option for me, as even if it was successful it was recommended not to run on it anyway. This would have been the only reason that I would have went through the treatment in the first place.

    Have you been accessed biomechanically, how is you general posture.

    If you have degeneration at such an early stage have you looked into the "why".
    What if any treatment have you had on it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 260 ✭✭mo_bhicycle


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Stem cells wasnt going to be ab option for me, as even if it was successful it was recommended not to run on it anyway. This would have been the only reason that I would have went through the treatment in the first place.
    Are you still running Ceepo?

    Trying to get back myself after knee scope. I've a 1cmx2cm chunk of cartilage missing on one side of 1 of my knees.
    I'm working through a strength program at the moment to fix a knee valgus issue that I believe is the key contributory factor to my knee problem.

    I know someone who has had the stem cell treatment but it doesn't seem to have helped as 1 year on they still haven't been able to get back running. I figure there's no point even considering something like this without addressing the underlying problem as it'll just come back again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    Are you still running Ceepo?

    Trying to get back myself after knee scope. I've a 1cmx2cm chunk of cartilage missing on one side of 1 of my knees.
    I'm working through a strength program at the moment to fix a knee valgus issue that I believe is the key contributory factor to my knee problem.

    I know someone who has had the stem cell treatment but it doesn't seem to have helped as 1 year on they still haven't been able to get back running. I figure there's no point even considering something like this without addressing the underlying problem as it'll just come back again.

    I would gp for the odd run here and there, but nothing consistent.
    I had /have an osteochonderal lesion of medial femoral condyle and a meniscus tear.

    I would agree that having biomechanical issues like knee valgus would certainly be a contributing factor. That said the pain science wouldn't agree with me.

    I'd be interested to know how you're addressing your knee valgus. From what I can see addressing biomechanical issues is not a road that Physiotherapists would go down.

    For my part I have done a lot of gait correction work, following "Functional Patterns" training system. And I definitely feel the benefits of it, while I don't run that much any more i can run pain free when i do run,
    I ran for approx 20 years and have got a lot out of it, after I picked up the injury I lost all the hunger to train hard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »

    Stem cells wasnt going to be ab option for me, as even if it was successful it was recommended not to run on it anyway. This would have been the only reason that I would have went through the treatment in the first place.

    Have you been accessed biomechanically, how is you general posture.

    If you have degeneration at such an early stage have you looked into the "why".
    What if any treatment have you had on it.

    2 physios found no real issue, only Duck feet. Ten to two.

    One said I had an underdeveloped ass so I went to a different guy for second opinion and asked could something weak/underdeveloped be cause he said no....so.....(waste of time/money?)

    I don't know what happened to it.

    I'm going to have to be my own guinea pig unfortunately as can't find reliable info online. I spent a bomb on every supplement going related to joints (probably waste of money), job is a problem, it's physical (could be cause), I need to get off my feet for half a year... extended sick leave or pack it in... difficult decisions coming.... their are studies that have shown cartilage heals on its own. You just have to give it time/a chance to do it but modern life doesn't aid that.

    I'll throw up study link later.


    (Running days are over until maybe stem cells 2nd generation come out, actually I stopped everything, went nuclear, I know everything is damaging it further, except for maybe swimming)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    2 physios found no real issue, only Duck feet. Ten to two.

    One said I had an underdeveloped ass so I went to a different guy for second opinion and asked could something weak/underdeveloped be cause he said no....so.....(waste of time/money?)

    I don't know what happened to it.

    I'm going to have to be my own guinea pig unfortunately as can't find reliable info online. I spent a bomb on every supplement going related to joints (probably waste of money), job is a problem, it's physical (could be cause), I need to get off my feet for half a year... extended sick leave or pack it in... difficult decisions coming.... their are studies that have shown cartilage heals on its own. You just have to give it time/a chance to do it but modern life doesn't aid that.

    I'll throw up study link later.


    (Running days are over until maybe stem cells 2nd generation come out, actually I stopped everything, went nuclear, I know everything is damaging it further, except for maybe swimming)

    So which of the Physiotherapists opinion do you think was a waste of time money?.

    Did the 1st one give you corrective exercise or just strength work to do.

    What did the 2nd one do for you.

    Duck feet.... externally rotated feet... can come from a number of factors.
    The external rotation can come from the femur /hip , or tibia/ knee. Before trying to correct them you need to find where it is coming from.
    Externally rotated feet can have an impact on the knee if you look at it from a biomechanical aspect. Most Physiotherapists don't.

    Looking at studies is all fine and well. But in what context are they done. Most dont and cant take into account the huge amount of variables that make up human movement.

    Having a weak glute.. why is it weak. If you are using it it the right context then it won't be weak. If your external rotation is coming for the hip the the glute max Can Not work in hip extension... its main function... to strengthen now doing hip trust/dead lift type of excersise Will Not help it to perform hip extension.
    You need to look at the movement and correct from there...!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    So which of the Physiotherapists opinion do you think was a waste of time money?.

    Did the 1st one give you corrective exercise or just strength work to do.

    What did the 2nd one do for you.

    Duck feet.... externally rotated feet... can come from a number of factors.
    The external rotation can come from the femur /hip , or tibia/ knee. Before trying to correct them you need to find where it is coming from.
    Externally rotated feet can have an impact on the knee if you look at it from a biomechanical aspect. Most Physiotherapists don't.

    Looking at studies is all fine and well. But in what context are they done. Most dont and cant take into account the huge amount of variables that make up human movement.

    Having a weak glute.. why is it weak. If you are using it it the right context then it won't be weak. If your external rotation is coming for the hip the the glute max Can Not work in hip extension... its main function... to strengthen now doing hip trust/dead lift type of excersise Will Not help it to perform hip extension.
    You need to look at the movement and correct from there...!!!
    Go to another physio? They're contradicting each other.

    First gave me 2 exercises. One actually hurts knee to do.

    Reckoned Right glute weak but left knee is problem, right knee absolutely perfect, I MRI it aswell. Thoughts? To many variables?

    Both reckoned leave rotation alone, maybe in time look for corrective insoles, for now wear shoes with medial support which oddly enough was every pair I had except work pair.

    Could rotation be cause in one knee?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    Have a look at this.
    This will give you some idea of what most physio's miss out on

    https://www.facebook.com/syzygyhealth/videos/404609830074759/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARDRcGID0FxIWpYtiZbDybiivejI89P29J4t4m2h7KtSsGJRUN4EdNhmIYOqs2MYMwjt6GDMt35p0TUq&hc_ref=ARR_5AYcPsDBkF6wUtmAWIm0BulKAGnOFuSYjHrjqZR80p_PjLHvjSMEwXakGes4Xo0&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARBhsJ09oGNoMpXM1L3rff0CfnTx2Y7KDZ6l8VHkPibBjr1oOITsuDf1NG-k9gu3vBnLxS2CZvdYwWCLv58wQDMagHpv03Odq0qf1aYQAkqhHeMwj_9EP4a8785Ydi-QxEbpLV0cUqbIRrB4ElCaxXRtfDveArhrfW2PI4-ae3ftz0RFzvahxBRhDtrTK9dog0TxedeM9s--JYOKkUb0_dseN8tZE7GxY-rvTp7PQgMkuPjGZ4Xq1crg-zL2S3UmJ2_K2FxOrXvy2iuD0_8uzPktHqIVTBFAXFVhh38gi92hY4UDU4x8cTAxKilqvTnZ5r3bpUP1p_6kQ7lMzNb0WCGQwZ4p1uY


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Have a look at this.
    This will give you some idea of what most physio's miss out on

    https://www.facebook.com/syzygyhealth/videos/404609830074759/?__tn__=kCH-R&eid=ARDRcGID0FxIWpYtiZbDybiivejI89P29J4t4m2h7KtSsGJRUN4EdNhmIYOqs2MYMwjt6GDMt35p0TUq&hc_ref=ARR_5AYcPsDBkF6wUtmAWIm0BulKAGnOFuSYjHrjqZR80p_PjLHvjSMEwXakGes4Xo0&fref=nf&__xts__[0]=68.ARBhsJ09oGNoMpXM1L3rff0CfnTx2Y7KDZ6l8VHkPibBjr1oOITsuDf1NG-k9gu3vBnLxS2CZvdYwWCLv58wQDMagHpv03Odq0qf1aYQAkqhHeMwj_9EP4a8785Ydi-QxEbpLV0cUqbIRrB4ElCaxXRtfDveArhrfW2PI4-ae3ftz0RFzvahxBRhDtrTK9dog0TxedeM9s--JYOKkUb0_dseN8tZE7GxY-rvTp7PQgMkuPjGZ4Xq1crg-zL2S3UmJ2_K2FxOrXvy2iuD0_8uzPktHqIVTBFAXFVhh38gi92hY4UDU4x8cTAxKilqvTnZ5r3bpUP1p_6kQ7lMzNb0WCGQwZ4p1uY

    Need to make a FB Account, will do it later, thanks.

    I'm annoyed now googling this. I never knew the damage this could "potentially" do.

    I've been to other physios over the years. Nobody has ever said a thing. GP, nobody.

    Even physio one who pointed out my glute, not a word...but he said I had good mobility/flexibility. Idk.

    Physio 2 dismissed out of hand.

    Orthopedic surgeon for something else. Not a word. WTF?

    I'm looking at surgery/disability possibly because of this...

    And the fix was roll on a ball...https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/do-you-have-duck-feet-why-you-need-to-address-the-problem/

    http://posturedirect.com/how-to-fix-duck-feet-posture/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    Need to make a FB Account, will do it later, thanks.

    I'm annoyed now googling this. I never knew the damage this could "potentially" do.

    I've been to other physios over the years. Nobody has ever said a thing. GP, nobody.

    Even physio one who pointed out my glute, not a word...but he said I had good mobility/flexibility. Idk.

    Orthopedic surgeon for something else. Not a word. WTF?

    I'm looking at surgery/disability possibly because of this...

    And the fix was roll on a ball...https://www.wholelifechallenge.com/do-you-have-duck-feet-why-you-need-to-address-the-problem/

    http://posturedirect.com/how-to-fix-duck-feet-posture/

    Yiu will get it if you....
    YouTube Ted x pain and biomechanics John Haddad Kareim Mahmoud

    Just to add , I've done courses with these guys, it was a complete eye opener....

    Fell free to shoot across any questions you may have

    Also look into the work of Thomas Myers "Anatomy Trains "

    And you will see how the body is "connected "
    It's a lot more than "this muscle moves this bone"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Can you summarise it. I flicked through it, didn't really get what your referring to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    beauf wrote: »
    Can you summarise it. I flicked through it, didn't really get what your referring to.

    In short... Physiotherapists dont look globally enough..

    Biomechanics matter !!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Some physios do. Some definitely don't though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    A Judge Rules Against One Stem-Cell Clinic. There Are Hundreds of Them.

    One of those Companies seem to have an army of trolls on every site going totting how good these procedures are...


    Stem Cell Company Persuades Employers To Steer Workers Toward Controversial Therapy

    US healthcare really is a sh1tshow


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »

    Looking at studies is all fine and well. But in what context are they done. Most dont and cant take into account the huge amount of variables that make up human movement.
    Only noticed today reading on phone that the biggest Stem company in the states funds their own stem studies, ugh, I will have to start over.

    They will get any result they want when they are paying for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    Only noticed today reading on phone that the biggest Stem company in the states funds their own stem studies, ugh, I will have to start over.

    They will get any result they want when they are paying for it.

    Do yourself a favour and go to " Functional Patterns" Dublin,, based in Donabate.
    I can guarantee you that will you will not have had any assessment or a rehabilitation plan like it done before .


  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Do yourself a favour and go to " Functional Patterns" Dublin,, based in Donabate.
    I can guarantee you that will you will not have had any assessment or a rehabilitation plan like it done before .

    Before or after the specialist Im now Waiting to see...heading for the pits of despair:(

    You're in similar boat to me just a little bit further back down the road, I'm assuming you went to that place you mention so what happened to you??

    I'm so pissed off....hours go by in what seem like minutes and I just sit here running through the affect this is going to have....:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    vargoo wrote: »
    Before or after the specialist Im now Waiting to see...heading for the pits of despair:(

    You're in similar boat to me just a little bit further back down the road, I'm assuming you went to that place you mention so what happened to you??

    I'm so pissed off....hours go by in what seem like minutes and I just sit here running through the affect this is going to have....:mad:

    Functional Patterns Dublin is run by 2 guys.
    One is a Physiotherapists the other is a sports injury therapist. Both are Functional patterns practioner.
    I am also a sports injury therapist and a Functional Patterns practioner.
    You may not have heard of FP before as there isn't many practioners in Ireland. Possible only 10 or so, but I can honestly say it change the way I look at the body as a therapist.
    As I said in a previous post, I have done courses with the guys on the youtube/facebook link.
    Yes I bias, but with good reason, as I've seen 1st hand the results FP practioners are getting world wide..
    I couldn't possibly go onto the "how" in a post here.
    I would certainly go before I seen the consultant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6132

    Results of 2 platelet rich plasma (PLP) studys doesnt argue well for the use of it at least in Achilles tendon injury...


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    I had a torn medial meniscus earlier this year and considered this at one point.
    I talked to the consultant I was seeing about this (a previous olympian and currently lecturing in UCD) and he felt that there wasnt much conclusive evidance that this treatment was effective (for knee injuries/pain). He recommended a course of hyaluronic acid injections in the knees instead which, in his exerience, gave much better pain relief in more patients and cost far less to boot.

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,507 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    Supercell wrote: »
    I had a torn medial meniscus earlier this year and considered this at one point.
    I talked to the consultant I was seeing about this (a previous olympian and currently lecturing in UCD) and he felt that there wasnt much conclusive evidance that this treatment was effective (for knee injuries/pain). He recommended a course of hyaluronic acid injections in the knees instead which, in his exerience, gave much better pain relief in more patients and cost far less to boot.

    Did you receive the Hyaluronic acid injections, If so what was the outcome.?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,313 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    Ceepo wrote: »
    Did you receive the Hyaluronic acid injections, If so what was the outcome.?

    Actually no, though I do regret it.
    He felt that my meniscus needed an operation though he was willing to try the injections first.
    The plan was to have the op followed by injections if needed about 2-3 months later. I did have the op but didn't need the injections afterwards.

    To be honest if i tore the meniscus in my other knee in a similar mannner I'd try the injections first as the recovery took several months and it was bloody painful afterwards. The strenghtening excercises the week after the op brought tears to my eyes. Running pain free took about three months I'd say though I was running about two weeks after the op, short distance but psychologically it meant the world to me to be out again.

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



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