The perks, the costs and the end of free charging?

Water John

Don't know which thread to stick this in.
You write an article on changing to EVs in Ireland, great. When you go to ask somebody in the industry, you pick the CEO of Toyota WTF? Toyota have no EV and are pushing a different concept. Good grief.
https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-cars-climate-action-plan-4692093-Jun2019/

Zenith74

Water John wrote: »

Don't know which thread to stick this in.
You write an article on changing to EVs in Ireland, great. When you go to ask somebody in the industry, you pick the CEO of Toyota WTF? Toyota have no EV and are pushing a different concept. Good grief.
https://www.thejournal.ie/electric-cars-climate-action-plan-4692093-Jun2019/

Toyota CEO/marketing team will almost certainly have contacted them, not the other way around. Most of the time when you see stuff like this it’s a deliberate effort by the company to get some PR. The company has a story they want to get out, or just wants some attention so pitched a story to the journalists. If they can give it enough of a veneer of an actual story it will get run.

Quite a few from Toyota specifically at the moment in the Irish press. Not sure if they’re worried about their choice to not have a pure EV or are just trying to ride the coat tales of the green wave with their perpetual motion self-charging hybrids :-)

Dardania

Zenith74 wrote: »

Toyota CEO/marketing team will almost certainly have contacted them, not the other way around. Most of the time when you see stuff like this it’s a deliberate effort by the company to get some PR. The company has a story they want to get out, or just wants some attention so pitched a story to the journalists. If they can give it enough of a veneer of an actual story it will get run.

Quite a few from Toyota specifically at the moment in the Irish press. Not sure if they’re worried about their choice to not have a pure EV or are just trying to ride the coat tales of the green wave with their perpetual motion self-charging hybrids :-)

You can see that lately too with the UCD study they sponsored about hybrid usage

Zenith74

Dardania wrote: »

You can see that lately too with the UCD study they sponsored about hybrid usage

Good point. Too be fair that was an interesting study and the percentage time spent on electric was much better than I’d expected.

What I would like to have seen though was testing done on cars of different ages. So for example how much time does a 10 year old Prius taxi with 200k on the clock spend on electric mode. Maybe I’m wrong, but I assume Prius batteries degrade like all other EVs so as they age they essentially get dirtier and dirtier. I know you can replace a battery in a Prius, but because you aren’t forced to like with an EV that has lost a load of range, I assume most just drive around as virtually petrol cars.

Would still be fully in-favour of a rapid ban on non-hybrid cars, once it’s not seen as the final solution, delaying the move to pure electric.

JohnC.

Toyota, with Suzuki, do have EVs coming. I think they are talking about an initial launch in China in 20 or 21 with the rest of the world to follow.

slave1

JohnC. wrote: »

Toyota, with Suzuki, do have EVs coming. I think they are talking about an initial launch in China in 20 or 21 with the rest of the world to follow.

Toyota had EV in the past, essentially a Tesla with a Rav4 everything else, they did not advertise it as (I think I'm safe in assuming) it was a compliance car where I'd say they did not want to sell in numbers

Toyota invested far too much in hydrogen with only one car no one wants to show for it, a huge embarrassment for Toyota!

biko

Moved to own thread, this is often the best option when in doubt where to post.

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Toyota had EV in the past, essentially a Tesla with a Rav4 everything else, they did not advertise it as (I think I'm safe in assuming) it was a compliance car where I'd say they did not want to sell in numbers

only sold in ZEV states. Did not even have chademo as an option (although you can get aftermarket jdemo kits)
I considered importing one at one point

Zenith74 wrote: »

Good point. Too be fair that was an interesting study and the percentage time spent on electric was much better than I’d expected.

What I would like to have seen though was testing done on cars of different ages. So for example how much time does a 10 year old Prius taxi with 200k on the clock spend on electric mode. Maybe I’m wrong, but I assume Prius batteries degrade like all other EVs so as they age they essentially get dirtier and dirtier. I know you can replace a battery in a Prius, but because you aren’t forced to like with an EV that has lost a load of range, I assume most just drive around as virtually petrol cars.

Would still be fully in-favour of a rapid ban on non-hybrid cars, once it’s not seen as the final solution, delaying the move to pure electric.

Our prius has 250k on the clock (2008 mk2) and still does a lot of driving in EV mode. We (well I - herself isnt bothered hypermiling) get over 70mpg around town

kanuseeme

“From our perspective the best potential to achieve the 2030 goal lies in a mix of alternatively powered vehicles. As such, over the coming years we will continue the development of our hybrid electric vehicles (which you don’t need to plug-in), which are already delivering the lowest CO2 output of any car brand in Europe and have a major role to play in the next decade,”

I love the " which you don't need to plug-in" bit, is it a shame to plug something in? When I had my lexus ct, I would get into it and see the battery nearly empty in it, I knew that it would take petrol to charge the battery, most of you hybrid/electric guys know how to do one foot driving and an empty battery was common occurrence with me, I would have plugged it in if there was an option on it, I know it was only 1.2 kwh or near it, but why waste petrol on self charging.

unkel

It's Toyota marketing behind it. They advertise hybrids as "self-charging" cars in Ireland and seem to get away with it. These ads have been banned in other countries as they are not truthful.

The reason Toyota are selling hybrids and not EVs is a bit complex, but mainly because of:

1. Toyota reckoned hydrogen would be the next step, not EVs. They invested a lot of money in it, and still don't seem to want to let go. The world will never see mass hydrogen cars. EV has won the battle

2. Toyota can only get their hands on very limited battery supply. If they offered to sell EVs, they could only sell a few. There is only 1kWh or so in a hybrid, so you can spread it thinly

3. Toyota can't make decent modern diesels. They've outsourced it to BMW, but that costs them. More profitable to sell an in house built hybrid

4. Some people claim Toyota is already a step ahead and want to install supercapacitors in cars instead of batteries. They are ahead of the rest of the world on this. I have my doubts on this one. Toyota has never been on the leading edge of technology before

...Ghost...

kanuseeme wrote: »

SNIP

I love the " which you don't need to plug-in" bit, is it a shame to plug something in?
SNIP

The thing is...you do need to plug it in. You need to plug in a smelly fossil fuel hose and pay through the nose for the privilege. I will take an EV plug in every day of the week.

Looking at car rentals, the biggest put off right now (aside from price for a big family) is the thought of putting diesel into it. I may well just get a transfer to the hotel.

Water John

Insured my Leaf today in my Co for €300. That's a keen price and I can offset it as a business cost.

stimpson

unkel wrote: »

It's Toyota marketing behind it. They advertise hybrids as "self-charging" cars in Ireland and seem to get away with it. These ads have been banned in other countries as they are not truthful.

The reason Toyota are selling hybrids and not EVs is a bit complex, but mainly because of:

1. Toyota reckoned hydrogen would be the next step, not EVs. They invested a lot of money in it, and still don't seem to want to let go. The world will never see mass hydrogen cars. EV has won the battle

2. Toyota can only get their hands on very limited battery supply. If they offered to sell EVs, they could only sell a few. There is only 1kWh or so in a hybrid, so you can spread it thinly

3. Toyota can't make decent modern diesels. They've outsourced it to BMW, but that costs them. More profitable to sell an in house built hybrid

4. Some people claim Toyota is already a step ahead and want to install supercapacitors in cars instead of batteries. They are ahead of the rest of the world on this. I have my doubts on this one. Toyota has never been on the leading edge of technology before

I have many issues with Toyota (having been a customer for 10 years/3 new cars), but they have to be commended on a lot:

1. Making a success of Hybrids. the Toyota hybrids are extremely reliable and were the thin end of the wedge for EV. The first gen Prius is over 20 years old!
2. They have finished with the BMW engines and dumped diesel across the range. This alone deserves a gold star in my book.
3. The petrol hybrids rival diesel in economy and emissions, while being far nicer to drive
4. By spreading their batteries thinly across all of their range, as they are doing now, they are likely reducing total CO2 emissions by more than any other manufacturer.
5. I can see why they (and Honda) bet big on hydrogen and while it hasn't paid off, I am still hopeful we will see Hydrogen vehicles as there are many benefits if they can get it right.

KCross

stimpson wrote: »

4. By spreading their batteries thinly across all of their range, as they are doing now, they are likely reducing total CO2 emissions by more than any other manufacturer.

I think they will be the only ones that meet (or almost meet) the new emissions targets and hence they will have little or no fines. So, from a shareholders perspective I'd say they are happy that Toyota are ahead of the game in that regard.

I'd bet they will be able to turn out EV's when they decide the time is right. They clearly have the expertise, build quality and the ability to scale like VAG.

They just dont happen to believe in Li-ion. I reckon they are waiting for solid state(or some other battery tech) to be a reality and then they will go all-in.... whether thats too late or not is anyones guess.

stimpson wrote: »

5. I can see why they (and Honda) bet big on hydrogen and while it hasn't paid off, I am still hopeful we will see Hydrogen vehicles as there are many benefits if they can get it right.

Toyota have convinced the Chinese govt to cut EV subsidies and back hydrogen so I'm not sure its a dead tech yet.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/companies/china-scales-back-subsidies-for-electric-cars-to-spur-innovation/ar-BBVf38W

I dont see how they can make it work for cars though. Even if they can solve the safety issues the efficiency figures are poor for hydrogen. However, when China decides the world has to listen and lets be honest the rest of the govts of the world would prefer hydrogen too as its much easier to tax.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

lets be honest the rest of the govts of the world would prefer hydrogen too as its much easier to tax.

They sure can't tax the electricity I produce with my solar panels that I can use to charge my car

Water John

What is the tax take on a car? Let's assume the Govn't will put VRT back on EVs at some point. So basically its road tax and tax on petrol/diesel.
My Mazda diesel was Band A = €200
Ev = €120
Not a lot and easy to alter Bands.
What is the take on a litre 80 cent?
Car goes 16,000 Km/year. At 6L per 100km, that's 960L @ 80 Cent = €768/year.
€15 per week tax they have to get off me in some other way, not necessarily in relation to transport.

unkel

Water John wrote: »

What is the tax take on a car? Let's assume the Govn't will put VRT back on EVs at some point.

They never did that when everyone switched to diesels in 2008. The motor tax and VRT on diesels stayed low. This has been costing the Govn't a billion a year or so ever since. I guess general taxation is making up for it

Same will probably happen with EVs until they figure out charging per mile driven

I expect taxation on ICE cars (excise duty / carbon tax / VRT / motor tax) to go up significantly though over the next decade

Dardania

unkel wrote: »

They never did that when everyone switched to diesels in 2008. The motor tax and VRT on diesels stayed low. This has been costing the Govn't a billion a year or so ever since. I guess general taxation is making up for it

Same will probably happen with EVs until they figure out charging per mile driven

I expect taxation on ICE cars (excise duty / carbon tax / VRT / motor tax) to go up significantly though over the next decade

I reckon tax on electricity will go up sharply, generally. And tax on ICE cars will go up even sharper to compensate.

Water John

Can't see it as per mileage each year. If they want the same tax take, they simply have to figure how to get €15/wk off me. It could be anything. Carbon tax will I presume actually be giving that yield at least. Our leccie is quite dear, compared to EU countries so don't see that rising.

wonski

I don't mind Toyota hybrid cars, but the self charging term is a new level. Lexus does the same obviously.

It is as self charging as my petrol car is self sufficient, as long as there is a petrol in the tank.

Sure instead of solar power you can have self charging battery powered by generator providing power for your home.

Marketing gimmick, seen one Toyota dealer car with this slogan written on it at the petrol station today, I kid you not

n97 mini

Water John wrote: »

Can't see it as per mileage each year. If they want the same tax take, they simply have to figure how to get €15/wk off me. It could be anything. Carbon tax will I presume actually be giving that yield at least. Our leccie is quite dear, compared to EU countries so don't see that rising.

Govt collects just over €2 billion in excise duties on fuel. That's not a huge amount when expenditure is €74 billion.

Look at some of the areas of expenditure here. With a little bit of tweaking the €2 billion could easily be absorbed.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/2018/