Linkedin: Public v Private Sector

dusty bin

First of all Disclosure: I'm a serving civil servant in the 15-20 years service bracket.

We had a discussion today regarding loyalty in the Civil Service and if it is still a thing. Someone had mentioned that the civil service is a great place for upskilling due to the various courses/qualifications available to members of staff. Another colleague pointed out that they attended a Revenue Graduation in Limerick where staff members got a degree after a 5 year course. Apparently somewhere between 10-20 of those who graduated are no longer within the revenue department. A small few had moved onto to other departments via promotion whilst the majority had left the civil service entirely and moved to the private sector. Apparently there is no barrier once you pass and you can move on when you like.The consensus @ our round table was that public monies are being wasted here in these situations. Should some sort of contract be entered into when undertaking these 'free courses'?

It got me thinking and I googled a number of senior managers (heo and ap level) and discovered lots of them with linkedin accounts showing their employment history. The majority of those with accounts had less than 10 years service, plenty with less than 5.

My question is :Would having a linkedin account display a lack of loyalty, especially if employed as a civil servant? Most of us around the table are what you would call 'lifers' and i do not begrudge anyone moving on to something better in life/career, however I just wanted to raise the topic outside the work place.

I personally do think that managers with a linkedin account show a lack of loyalty, but everyones situations are different. I definitely think that those who undertake courses provided by their department should stay in a role for a defined period of time or else fork out the costs themselves. Degree and Diploma courses are not cheap.

ParkRunner

If the upskilling was self funded there are no contract issues. If the course was paid for or part paid for, the money will be recouped if the person leaves within a specified time. This is part of the terms of the courses being financed which the person would have to sign

dusty bin

ParkRunner wrote: »

If the upskilling was self funded there are no contract issues. If the course was paid for or part paid for, the money will be recouped if the person leaves within a specified time. This is part of the terms of the courses being financed which the person would have to sign

But there is no contracts entered into? As far as I'm aware, none of those who completed their degrees/diplomas had any restriction, apart from staying in their departments until the course was finished. I myself have a couple of qualifications through the years and I only ever had to pass the course to get it for free (my courses were done through refund of fees scheme). There was no barrier to me staying once I had passed. Other govt departments have different rules but my colleague who attended that particular graduation was adament that those who had moved on between course completion and graduation were not out of pocket.

howardmarks

Generally you have to stay for a period equal or greater than the course paid for after completion or failing that pay the costs on leaving. So a 4 year degree means if you leave within 4 years after you obtain your qualifications u have to pay the cost back.
Hearing something from a colleague does not make it true. The organization gets the benefit of staff being up skilled during this period.

Riskymove

dusty bin wrote: »

My question is :Would having a linkedin account display a lack of loyalty, especially if employed as a civil servant?

why would they?

While LinkedIn is used for recruitment and headhunting it is also a professional networking app

I have an account but am not looking to be recruited. I use it to connect to other public servants and use it as a communication tool for my area of work.

Should some sort of contract be entered into when undertaking these 'free courses'?

In the civil service it is a condition of the refund of educational fees that they be repaid if you leave within a few years.

howardmarks

howardmarks wrote: »

Generally you have to stay for a period equal or greater than the course paid for after completion or failing that pay the costs on leaving. So a 4 year degree means if you leave within 4 years after you obtain your qualifications u have to pay the cost back.
Hearing something from a colleague does not make it true. The organization gets the benefit of staff being up skilled during this period.

possibly in a smaller org that is hived off (the kind that arent eligible for interdepartmental comps etc) but in the wider service its not practicible to set strict conditions like this

i have seen it mentioned about releasability, but i would think that this applies only to secondment/transfer. a dept is very unlikely (even if theoretically able) to stand in the way of a promotion or demand repayment in such circumstances.

i only read it last month, youd think id remember it more clearly ....

Sir Guy who smiles

From Department of finance circular:

Circular 23/07: Post-Entry Education - Refund of Fees. Studv Leave and Examination Leave
"


each officer to whom a payment is made is required to sign a standard form of

undertaking committing himself/herself to return the payment in full in the event

of leaving the Civil Service before completing one year's service (i.e. twelve

months) in respect of each academic year/course period for which a payment has

been made. The academic years/course periods do not themselves reckon as

service in this context. For example, an officer undertaking a three year course

will be required to provide three years service after completion of the course;"

cee_jay

From the letter of undertaking signed by a civil servant in commencing a course under the Refund of Fees:

Now in consideration of the premise I hereby undertake that should I leave the public service before I have completed twelve months service in respect of each academic year or corresponding period of the said course for which a
refund of fees shall have been made to me (such service not to commence until the completion of said course), I will repay the Minister/Head of Office such sum as shall be the amount of the fees refunded to me as aforesaid for each and any academic year or corresponding course period in respect of which I shall not have completed twelve months service hereinbefore provided.

https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/2007/23.pdf

dusty bin

howardmarks wrote: »

Generally you have to stay for a period equal or greater than the course paid for after completion or failing that pay the costs on leaving. So a 4 year degree means if you leave within 4 years after you obtain your qualifications u have to pay the cost back.
Hearing something from a colleague does not make it true. The organization gets the benefit of staff being up skilled during this period.

Fair enough regarding my colleague, hopefully he can get more definitive details from the persons who's grad he attended.

But as i mentioned, I myself have undertaken courses throughout the years and the only barrier I had was that I must pass the course. Failed and I had to pay up, pass and I was upskilled free of charge. I've never changed departments anyway, but I know of some people who left within 5 years of a 5 year degree course and werent out of pocket so your statement, unless it can be backed up, does not make it true either.

howardmarks

dusty bin wrote: »

Fair enough regarding my colleague, hopefully he can get more definitive details from the persons who's grad he attended.

But as i mentioned, I myself have undertaken courses throughout the years and the only barrier I had was that I must pass the course. Failed and I had to pay up, pass and I was upskilled free of charge. I've never changed departments anyway, but I know of some people who left within 5 years of a 5 year degree course and werent out of pocket so your statement, unless it can be backed up, does not make it true either.

There’s a drive towards mobility and sharing of resources (ie people) in the civil service at present.
Moving departments if you look at the organization as a whole is simply benefiting another part of it and it’s reciprocal for staff coming the other way.

Your outlook on free courses as you put it does not take into account the work involved for the individual taking them on, mostly in their own time which benefits the overall organization with a smarter more efficient workforce. Nothing is free.
If you compare it to private industry depending on the sector there is constant upskilling (IT, accounting etc) which is paid by most employers.
I don’t see any issue here. Should no costs be covered for up skilling staff unless they sign they’re names away for as you put it as a ‘lifer’

Sir Guy who smiles

dusty bin wrote: »

Fair enough regarding my colleague, hopefully he can get more definitive details from the persons who's grad he attended.

But as i mentioned, I myself have undertaken courses throughout the years and the only barrier I had was that I must pass the course. Failed and I had to pay up, pass and I was upskilled free of charge. I've never changed departments anyway, but I know of some people who left within 5 years of a 5 year degree course and werent out of pocket so your statement, unless it can be backed up, does not make it true either.

Cee-Jay and I have quoted circulars that backed up his statement.
Now the Finance one I quoted leaves it up to individual departments to implement, so maybe you work for a department that doesn't implement it properly.

That's if you're sure you read everything you signed when applying fot the refund of fees !

Note also it says you pay back if you leave the civil service, so if you transfer form Finance to Foreign Affairs you don't have to pay anything.

doc22

The Revenue course when have been part of on the job training not just a course that the civil servant applied for so that's the difference. You do a 5 year degree as a civil servant you have to stay 5 years after completion if you don't want to repay it

fly_agaric

dusty bin wrote: »

My question is :Would having a linkedin account display a lack of loyalty, especially if employed as a civil servant? Most of us around the table are what you would call 'lifers' and i do not begrudge anyone moving on to something better in life/career, however I just wanted to raise the topic outside the work place.

I personally do think that managers with a linkedin account show a lack of loyalty, but everyones situations are different.

I don't see why. It's a work/profession/business related social networking tool. Having a profile up on it does not necessarily mean they are touting for a new/better job (if you are considering that as disloyalty).
So long as they don't post stuff up to it they should not (given restrictions they would be under as civil servants) there should be no problem.

Jupiter Mulligan

dusty bin wrote: »

Fair enough regarding my colleague, hopefully he can get more definitive details from the persons who's grad he attended.

But as i mentioned, I myself have undertaken courses throughout the years and the only barrier I had was that I must pass the course. Failed and I had to pay up, pass and I was upskilled free of charge. I've never changed departments anyway, but I know of some people who left within 5 years of a 5 year degree course and werent out of pocket so your statement, unless it can be backed up, does not make it true either.

My understanding is that when the day comes when a serving or former civil servant applies for their civil service pension this possibility will be looked at! As too will the possibility of someone having taken paid leave over and above what they were entitled to!

If any such items are spotted, then the Lump Sum is tweaked appropriately!

Jupiter Mulligan

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

My understanding is that when the day comes when a serving or former civil servant applies for their civil service pension this possibility will be looked at! As too will the possibility of someone having taken paid leave over and above what they were entitled to!

If any such items are spotted, then the Lump Sum is tweaked appropriately!

leave ive seen, and a few other items as well (overpayments would be a big one)

'garnish', a beautiful word!

never saw it for this but looking at the wording that others have brought to the thread it would certainly seem possible should the dept in question seek it