Advice needed on electric cars

Meursault

HI All,

I have been looking through the threads on this forum and there is some very interesting information. By the looks of it, costs are going to increase for those of us driving diesel and petrol cars, so it seems electric cars will be a no brainer in the next 5 years.

I was hoping, therefore, that you could provide some advice on the following:

1. What is the best electric family car ( 2 parents, 2 kids) option in terms of reliability and price?

2. I live about 40kms from my workplace, so I am spending around 45 - 50 per month on unleaded. How much does it cost to charge an electric car at home, using a night rate?

3. How reliable are the batteries? Will you get 7 - 10 years from an electric car?

4. Do electric cars hold their value in comparison to petrol/diesel?

5. Aside from the cheaper car tax, are there any other financial benefits of buying a new electric car? For instance, are there tax breaks, grants, etc? This is just for personal, rather than business use.

6. If you were to take a Hyundai Ionic or similar car as an example. Are they fast/powerful? Silly question, but i assume a car like this is capable of doing 120km p/hr in an electric car on the motorway?

7. What are the major disadvantages of purchasing an electric car versus petrol/diesel?

Thanks

Meursault

*Correction on on question 2. That's 45 - 50 quid per week!!

slave1

They are all good questions, but all answered before but likely buried in various threads and your answers will be based on your budget as budget will lead to car recommendations.
I had all the same questions years back and I just sat on this forum for a solid two to three weeks to read the threads on the main cars, the likes of Ioniq and Leaf

Gumbo

Meursault wrote: »

HI All,

I have been looking through the threads on this forum and there is some very interesting information. By the looks of it, costs are going to increase for those of us driving diesel and petrol cars, so it seems electric cars will be a no brainer in the next 5 years.

I was hoping, therefore, that you could provide some advice on the following:

1. What is the best electric family car ( 2 parents, 2 kids) option in terms of reliability and price?

2. I live about 40kms from my workplace, so I am spending around 45 - 50 per month on unleaded. How much does it cost to charge an electric car at home, using a night rate?

3. How reliable are the batteries? Will you get 7 - 10 years from an electric car?

4. Do electric cars hold their value in comparison to petrol/diesel?

5. Aside from the cheaper car tax, are there any other financial benefits of buying a new electric car? For instance, are there tax breaks, grants, etc? This is just for personal, rather than business use.

6. If you were to take a Hyundai Ionic or similar car as an example. Are they fast/powerful? Silly question, but i assume a car like this is capable of doing 120km p/hr in an electric car on the motorway?

7. What are the major disadvantages of purchasing an electric car versus petrol/diesel?

Thanks

Every answer to every question there is on this forum already. Some answer are long winded, others not so.

1. Tesla Model S in my opinion. Depends on budget.
2. Get the kWh rate from your ESB bill and multiply it by the battery size for a close enough cost. 18c X 64kWh battery is €11.50 to fill and for that you should get 450km (Kona or similar). You can half that cost using a Night Rate Meter.
3. Yes. Look at the 2011 Nissan Leaf floating about. Their battery chemistry wouldn't be know to be good but they are till fully useable. With the larger battery cars, they will be even more useable to more of the population, even with 30% degradation.
4. Yes. In some cases, value has gone up.
5. Buying new, SEAI grant is already built in. There's a €600 grant towards a home charge point installation too.
6. Yes and more.
7. Personal circumstances. You have to decide if an EV within your budget can suit your needs.

Mickeroo

Meursault wrote: »

HI All,

I have been looking through the threads on this forum and there is some very interesting information. By the looks of it, costs are going to increase for those of us driving diesel and petrol cars, so it seems electric cars will be a no brainer in the next 5 years.

I was hoping, therefore, that you could provide some advice on the following:

1. What is the best electric family car ( 2 parents, 2 kids) option in terms of reliability and price?

For space practicality probably the Ioniq or Leaf, Kia E-Niro could also be an option (I'm not including Tesla, E-tron, I-Pace etc because they're crazy money)

2. I live about 40kms from my workplace, so I am spending around 45 - 50 per month on unleaded. How much does it cost to charge an electric car at home, using a night rate?

It should roughly cost a tenth of that not accounting for other trips you do outside of your commute.

3. How reliable are the batteries? Will you get 7 - 10 years from an electric car?

Absolutely, Hyundai for example have an 8 year/200,000km warranty on the battery. The battery will degrade though but will probably outlast the car itself in the long run.

4. Do electric cars hold their value in comparison to petrol/diesel?

They hold their value better at the moment, this will likely change once supply and demand become less of an issue.

5. Aside from the cheaper car tax, are there any other financial benefits of buying a new electric car? For instance, are there tax breaks, grants, etc? This is just for personal, rather than business use.

There's a grant to install a charger at home, that's it really. Motor tax is only 120 for the year.

6. If you were to take a Hyundai Ionic or similar car as an example. Are they fast/powerful? Silly question, but i assume a car like this is capable of doing 120km p/hr in an electric car on the motorway?

In general yes. They are very quick from a standing start, even the less powerful ones like the Ioniq. Everyone who's had a spin in my Ioniq is always impressed by the power. They have no issues driving at 120mkph but you would have to be concious that your battery will drain qucker.

7. What are the major disadvantages of purchasing an electric car versus petrol/diesel?

If you have to do regular long trips I would advise against an EV but if the range covers the vast majority of your diving there aren't any disadvantages tbh, quite the opposite.

Thanks

I've attempted to answer your questions in bold there.

KCross

kceire wrote: »

2. Get the kWh rate from your ESB bill and multiply it by the battery size for a close enough cost. 18c X 64kWh battery is €11.50 to fill and for that you should get 450km (Kona or similar).

Small correction... he mentioned night rate so half that cost.... 9c X 64kWh

krissovo

Meursault wrote: »

HI All,

1. What is the best electric family car ( 2 parents, 2 kids) option in terms of reliability and price?

6. If you were to take a Hyundai Ionic or similar car as an example. Are they fast/powerful? Silly question, but i assume a car like this is capable of doing 120km p/hr in an electric car on the motorway?

I have 2 kids (10 & 5) and we test drove a lot of cars. The eNiro was a great all rounder and ticked a lot of boxes practical, great drive chain/range. The Leaf 40kw was great as well with a great seating position in the rear where they can actually see out of the rear really well. Model 3 as long as you do not have push chairs is fine for 2 kids. Ioniq ticked a lot of boxes as well as well as the I3 so I would try them all to see what suits you. Kona sucked for the kids as they were cramped in the back but great with everything else.

I have a background of 6 & 8 cylinder German cars matched to 7 & 9 speed automatic gearboxes, a EV car pulls like a train with a lot torque available at anytime just like a big German luxobarge so it is a nice driving experience:)

KCross

Meursault wrote: »

I was hoping, therefore, that you could provide some advice on the following:

1. What is the best electric family car ( 2 parents, 2 kids) option in terms of reliability and price?

Since you are a family of 4 that also puts you in the right bracket for a BMW i3 or an Ampera since both of those only have 4 seats.


As others have said, you need to give a guide on your budget as there is too broad a range to pick from otherwise.


Also, can you confirm that you have a driveway and that you will be able to charge at home each night. Thats critical to owning an EV right now.

Meursault wrote: »

5. Aside from the cheaper car tax, are there any other financial benefits of buying a new electric car? For instance, are there tax breaks, grants, etc? This is just for personal, rather than business use.

Cheaper tolls (limited to €500 per year) but you have to sign up for a toll tag to benefit. If you rarely use tolls its not worth the bother.

Meursault wrote: »

7. What are the major disadvantages of purchasing an electric car versus petrol/diesel?

Main one, right now, has to be the ability to reliably charge while doing long journeys. Its a short term problem as 2 new charging networks are currently being rolled out across the country. Things should improve alot in the next 12 months.

And the other issue is price... they are still expensive and going up in price (even secondhand!) but that is also likely to mean it will hold its value well in the years ahead too as carbon taxes on petrol/diesel take hold.

Meursault

Thanks All. Some great info there. Very much appreciated.

Seems like a no-brainer alright.

With regard to the installation of the charger at home, is that expensive?

I think once you can get from Dublin to Cork on a fully charged car, without have to stop on the way, I'd be happy to switch over.

Gumbo

Meursault wrote: »

With regard to the installation of the charger at home, is that expensive?

Depends on the unit picked. It can cost €1100 or it can cost, €350 total.
I actually made a profit from my install.

Meursault wrote: »

I think once you can get from Dublin to Cork on a fully charged car, without have to stop on the way, I'd be happy to switch over.

That has already happened. You can do that in many of the current crop of EV's.

mr chips

The 40kWh Leaf and the current 28 kWh Ioniq should both do your Dublin to Cork trip without having to charge if you stick to 110 kmh (EDIT - NOPE!), but little more than that unless you compromise on cruising speed and have decent driving conditions. Longer-range versions of both those cars are due out soon, but with an accompanying price hike. More options are due to become available in the near future from VW/Seat/Skoda which will be Golf-sized in terms of their footprint, but more like Passat-sized in terms of the cabin space. For me that would be ideal, but pricing will be the big question there - if any of them start at under €30k they'll really buck the trend.

As your kids are (both?) out of car seats but still primary school age, you might be able to live with the next size of car down from the Leaf/Ioniq etc. EV superminis are being brought out by the likes of Peugeot, Opel et al and there's a new and much-improved Renault Zoe on the way too. This may be a good way to keep a ceiling on the purchase price.

Other than that, the Kia eSoul may also be worth a look - slightly smaller & cheaper than the eNiro but better equipped AFAIK. Others who are parents can advise as to whether the BMW i3 is practical enough for regular family use - some seem to find the rear doors a PITA. And if you don't mind waiting till November, the MG ZS is supposed to start at GBP £25k and have an extra-urban range of 240+ km (NB could be a lot more, the small print in that page is interesting). Might be the one to tick all the boxes in terms of price, range and practicality.

Assuming you can easily charge overnight, the upfront purchase price is probably the biggest barrier to getting a brand-new EV with decent range, so you'll have to wait a while to notice the substantial savings to be made in terms of fuel and other running costs (mainly tax & servicing). The more mileage you do, the greater the savings so if you're spending €5-6k a year on petrol now, it's only going to take you a couple of years to get ahead. Info I saw recently estimated that batteries should still be usable up to 20 years after production, i.e. will outlast the expected lifetime of the rest of the car before having to be repurposed for grid storage, so you shouldn't have any concerns there.

Mickeroo

mr chips wrote: »

The 40kWh Leaf and the current 28 kWh Ioniq should both do your Dublin to Cork trip without having to charge if you stick to 110 kmh, but little more than that unless you compromise on cruising speed and have decent driving conditions. Longer-range versions of both those cars are due out soon, but with an accompanying price hike. More options are due to become available in the near future from VW/Seat/Skoda which will be Golf-sized in terms of their footprint, but more like Passat-sized in terms of the cabin space. For me that would be ideal, but pricing will be the big question there - if any of them start at under €30k they'll really buck the trend.

.

That's 260km or so isn't it? Not a chance in hell of either car doing that at 110km/h.

mr chips

Apologies, I thought it was only 220km or so - not a trip I ever do! Just checked and you're right, it's around 260 so neither of those cars would manage it at that speed, if at all.

Mike9832

Mickeroo wrote: »

That's 260km or so isn't it? Not a chance in hell of either car doing that at 110km/h.

:pac:

Leaf wouldn't do that trip @ 50km/h

OP look at the Zoe too, it's small but it's pretty decent value when you do the sums

Talked to a dealer on the phone today and outgoing model he offered me €25,500 for decent spec Dynamique

It's 0% interest and if you keep it say 5 years it will surely be worth what €10,000?

That's a cost to you of €15,000 or €3,000 a year or €60 a week

If your paying €50 a week in diesel, the brand new Zoe40 is practically free

It's got more than current Leaf or Ioniq

If your good you might be able to get an even better deal once the new Zoe50 comes out, Renault will surely have old models on forecourt

Professor Moriarty

A linked question. I have a 182 diesel car. Intend to keep it for another three years but I'm wondering when/if resale or trade-in values will drop because of EVs?

listermint

I want to buy an EV but have loads of questions - Sticky. Time ? ?

Mike9832

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A linked question. I have a 182 diesel car. Intend to keep it for another three years but I'm wondering when/if resale or trade-in values will drop because of EVs?

Already doing so

EV's are practially in negative depreciation

Clever people that bought Ioniqs etc for €26,000 few years ago and they are still worth €23,000

Gumbo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A linked question. I have a 182 diesel car. Intend to keep it for another three years but I'm wondering when/if resale or trade-in values will drop because of EVs?

Can’t answer that.
Bought leaf 2 years ago. Sold it this year for 1k more than I bought.

Negative depreciation

Gumbo

Mike9832 wrote: »

:pac:

Leaf wouldn't do that trip @ 50km/h

OP look at the Zoe too, it's small but it's pretty decent value when you do the sums

Talked to a dealer on the phone today and outgoing model he offered me €25,500 for decent spec Dynamique

It's 0% interest and if you keep it say 5 years it will surely be worth what €10,000?

That's a cost to you of €15,000 or €3,000 a year or €60 a week

If your paying €50 a week in diesel, the brand new Zoe40 is practically free

It's got more than current Leaf or Ioniq

If your good you might be able to get an even better deal once the new Zoe50 comes out, Renault will surely have old models on forecourt

Not a chance I’d have a Zoe as the only family car with 2 kids.
It’s too small. Even my i3 would be tight but we have the F10 for bigger jobs.

Professor Moriarty

kceire wrote: »

Can’t answer that.
Bought leaf 2 years ago. Sold it this year for 1k more than I bought.

Negative appreciation

Negative depreciation surely...

Gumbo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Negative depreciation surely...

Yeah, that also.

Thanks

Good luck with selection of your electric car op. Last year I bought a new hybrid Lexus CT200, which I am so pleased with. I would have gone for an all electric, but that I live in an apartment complex and don’t have the option of fitting an outlet. However, I will be making the suggestion that owners on the estate might have the option of paying for installation of such. If they got a company to do a mass installation at an affordable price I would go for it and make my next car an EV, what’s more it is a future-proof investment even for landlords as it would be a selling point.

If suitable space wise the i3 is a great car with the Rex , the Rex is a 600 Cc 40 odd HP generator that sits under the boot and does nothing until you need more range or your battery runs down, it means no queuing at charge points or charging at charge points at all if you don't want to and is great when on long trips with the family who will tolerate some charging but not a potential 2 hr wait, this is what you're up against , the charging infrastructure is terrible and slowly getting better, very slow.

I've seen Model S and Kona queuing for chargers so no matter how many Kwh you carry around you inevitably end up needing the charging infrastructure.

The i3 was released in 2014 and will have suffered some range loss like most electrics at the time but if you got the Rex it doesn't really matter because you should still have about 100 Km range on EV only. It's the only plug in with so much EV range and with an engine that has no mechanical connection to the wheels what so ever.

I saw a 2015 i3 Rex for sale on carzone for 22 K 82,000 Kms , red. Decent spec too, got the good sat nav , and the auto Cruise and I think it steers at slow speed too.

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bmw/i3/used-2015-152-bmw-i3-bmw-i3-60ah-with-cork-fpa-201905288411772
22 K EV and no charging worries and it's a solid car and a lot of fun to drive.

It had a battery upgrade around the Autumn 2016 and gives a range of 150-230 Kms, the upper end being regional roads no motorway speeds and in warmer weather, I could have got more but got home with about 11 % remaining.

If you can get the 94 Ah Rex from 2016 at a decent price and it suits then give it serious consideration, it also has a more powerful Rex but the trick is to turn on the Rex before your battery runs too low most people wait until it's almost depleted which you can also do but I like to leave some battery for slower roads and town driving and the Rex at high speeds on the motorway when driving longer distances , you don't have to slow down either.

So I3 Rex = no queuing at chargers

Rex eliminates cold battery charging on DC which can add 20 mins, charging as little as 25 Kw from 55 according to the readout on the charger, handy when staying away for a weekend and you just want to get in and go home and not look for fast chargers.

There are other electrics of course, I also drove a 24 Kwh 2015 Leaf for 3 years and 85,000 kms and would not do it again, range too low and charging network is poor + charging a cold battery is slow but it charges slow anyway even on a fast charger.

The 94 Ah i3 charges faster than the 64 Ah when the battery is warm.

The 30 Kwh Leaf charges faster than the 24 Kwh Leaf when the battery is warm.

All electrics will slow charging considerably when the battery is very cold something to be aware of.

I should also add that we're a family of 4 but also have the Outlander Diesel should we need a lot more space and we brought that to the U.K last year and probably will again this year, the extra space is handy, we could do it in the i3 and at times I think the more space we have the more crap we will think we need to bring lol.

Shefwedfan

THe biggest question to answer is your budget, that will dictate what you can buy!

krissovo

Deleted User wrote: »

I saw a 2015 i3 Rex for sale on carzone for 22 K 82,000 Kms , red. Decent spec too, got the good sat nav , and the auto Cruise and I think it steers at slow speed too.

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bmw/i3/used-2015-152-bmw-i3-bmw-i3-60ah-with-cork-fpa-201905288411772
22 K EV and no charging worries and it's a solid car and a lot of fun to drive.

It had a battery upgrade around the Autumn 2016 and gives a range of 150-230 Kms, the upper end being regional roads no motorway speeds and in warmer weather, I could have got more but got home with about 11 % remaining.

.

Do you know the car? That could be a contender for my son's car

Mike9832

krissovo wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I saw a 2015 i3 Rex for sale on carzone for 22 K 82,000 Kms , red. Decent spec too, got the good sat nav , and the auto Cruise and I think it steers at slow speed too.

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/bmw/i3/used-2015-152-bmw-i3-bmw-i3-60ah-with-cork-fpa-201905288411772
22 K EV and no charging worries and it's a solid car and a lot of fun to drive.

It had a battery upgrade around the Autumn 2016 and gives a range of 150-230 Kms, the upper end being regional roads no motorway speeds and in warmer weather, I could have got more but got home with about 11 % remaining.

.

Do you know the car? That could be a contender for my son's car

Thanks Dad

Meursault

listermint wrote: »

I want to buy an EV but have loads of questions - Sticky. Time ? ?

I think the interest in this topic is going to explode, so it mightn’t be a bad idea! All over the news today.

Meursault

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Good luck with selection of your electric car op. Last year I bought a new hybrid Lexus CT200, which I am so pleased with. I would have gone for an all electric, but that I live in an apartment complex and don’t have the option of fitting an outlet. However, I will be making the suggestion that owners on the estate might have the option of paying for installation of such. If they got a company to do a mass installation at an affordable price I would go for it and make my next car an EV, what’s more it is a future-proof investment even for landlords as it would be a selling point.

Thanks again, and thanks to all posters for the advice!

Zenith74

Mike9832 wrote: »

:pac:
Leaf wouldn't do that trip @ 50km/h

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYYZLPu3Zg

245km at ~80km/h by Bjorn. Guessing you might get closer to 300km at 50km/h. Not that you would ever want to do that, but just interesting...

krissovo

krissovo wrote: »

Do you know the car? That could be a contender for my son's car

No just saw it there when I searched, good car, good spec for an Irish i3.

And the petrol backup make all the difference in the world.

monseiur

No wishing to hijack thread, but has anyone owned/driven the E Golf. What's it's actual range on full charge ? How does it compare to say Leaf?
A 2018 one caught my eye on Auto Trader earlier, had 5,000 miles Price £25,000 (that's sterling!) no VRT Spec seems reasonable enough.

M.