PIRA founding member,Billy McKee dies (RIP)

_blaaz

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/founding-provisional-ira-member-billy-mckee-dies-930360.html



Not sure if this is right forum (sorry if not),

I tried avoid politics type forums so as to avoid a trainwreak thread

But whatever your views on the troubles,this is a notable death of someone who influenced the early troubles quite heavily

pedroeibar1

_blaaz wrote: »

......But whatever your views on the troubles,this is a notable death of someone who influenced the early troubles quite heavily

Not very notable - he was 97. Not everyone will miss him.

In recent years he defended some of the worst IRA atrocities which took place during his time of leadership, including the disappearance and murder of mother-of-10 Mrs McConville in west Belfast.


He also defended ‘Bloody Friday’ in 1972, when the IRA detonated 20 bombs in Belfast city centre in just over an hour, killing nine people, injuring 130 others and causing widespread terror.

_blaaz

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not very notable - he was 97. Not everyone will miss him.

In recent years he defended some of the worst IRA atrocities which took place during his time of leadership, including the disappearance and murder of mother-of-10 Mrs McConville in west Belfast.


He also defended ‘Bloody Friday’ in 1972, when the IRA detonated 20 bombs in Belfast city centre in just over an hour, killing nine people, injuring 130 others and causing widespread terror.

As ive said....be you agree or disagree with his actions

By being a founding member of the pira,he is a person of note through our shared history on this island



To say he wasnt a person of not is just denying history,because it deosnt suit you

_blaaz

_blaaz wrote: »

As ive said....be you agree or disagree with his actions

By being a founding member of the pira,he is a person of note through our shared history on this island



To say he wasnt a person of not is just denying history,because it deosnt suit you

ill agree he was a person of note alright

i wouldnt be adding any RIP sentiments

dundalkfc10

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Not very notable - he was 97. Not everyone will miss him.

In recent years he defended some of the worst IRA atrocities which took place during his time of leadership, including the disappearance and murder of mother-of-10 Mrs McConville in west Belfast.


He also defended ‘Bloody Friday’ in 1972, when the IRA detonated 20 bombs in Belfast city centre in just over an hour, killing nine people, injuring 130 others and causing widespread terror.

As big a scumbag as Michael Collins was

pedroeibar1

_blaaz wrote: »

To say he wasnt a person of not is just denying history,because it deosnt suit you

Go read your opening post. You wrote it was a ‘notable death’. It was not, other than for the longevity of his life, most males are dead by that age. If you meant he was a notable person you should have said so.

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

As big a scumbag as Michael Collins was

What an asinine comment. Collins fought a military war against military; while he had no hesitation in ordering the trigger to be squeezed it was against soldiers/police. He did not indiscriminately plant bombs to kill civilians or shoot innocents.

_blaaz

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Go read your opening post. You wrote it was a ‘notable death’. It was not, other than for the longevity of his life, most males are dead by that age. If you meant he was a notable person you should have said so.

Ok...if you think pira are irrelevant or not notable to modern irish history and death of one its founders is unnotable,thats up to you i guess?

What an asinine comment. Collins fought a military war against military; while he had no hesitation in ordering the trigger to be squeezed it was against soldiers/police. He did not indiscriminately plant bombs to kill civilians or shoot innocents.

Your very misinformed about collins,he was multiple times more ruthless than people appreciate....McKee would be cut from same old school republican cloth as him imho

BalcombeSt4

He took part in the Defense of the Short Strand (a small Nationalist enclave surroned by Loyalists) in June 1970, one of the PIRA's first battles, he was the O/C of the Belfast Brigade at the time and he was badly wounded in the battle, Short Strand would have been in the Belfast Brigades Third Battalion area along Ardoyne & The Markets area.
In 1972 he went on hunger strike for POW status & this was granted in July 1972 as "Special Categury" status which pretty much amounted to POW status, this was when the IRA delegation met British government officials, and then it was taken away when internment was phased out in 1976 & that was what the whole fuse was about in 1980/1981.

A decent man, but a little stuck in the past wth his religous views along with Sean MacStofain. He mus be the last member of the original PIRA Army Council to die unless John Kelly is still alive.

simongurnick

RIP

Boxing.Fan

RIP. He had a good innings.

BalcombeSt4

He was also one of , if not the main organizer of the Provos attacks on the Official IRA in 1975, which turned into a bloody feud, leaving something like nearly a dozen people dead people dead & dozens more injured. https://www.nytimes.com/1975/11/01/archives/two-are-shot-dead-in-belfast-as-factions-in-the-ira-feud.html https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/issues/violence/feudchron.htm

After the PIRA adopted the cell structure in 1977/78 he was slowly pushed out of the main parts of the movement alone with Seamus Twomey, Daithi O'Connell & Ruari O'Bradaigh and replaced with people like Adams, McGuinness, Danny Morrison, Kevin McKenna, Slab Murphy etc... and followed Ruari in the 1986 walkout and was a critic of the Adams leadership ever since up until his death.

Farawayhome

RIP. Brave man and someone who deserves great praise. Stood up to the extreme unionists and British security terror groups. Without men like him, we would have been looking at social cleansing in many parts of the north.

pedroeibar1

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

............

A decent man, but a little stuck in the past ......

To that and all the other claims for his 'worth' I reply that he was a brutal thug stuck in a mythical past shaped by his white Irish Catholicism, his own version of Republicanism and his warped imagination. This country in its near entirety shed not one single tear on the news of his death; he lived to a ripe old age unlike the almost 900 people murdered by the PIRA during his leadership. He was a man of extreme violence, a dinosaur, a bigot of the highest order who did not know what was the true meaning of being a ‘Republican’.

True Republicans have an agenda of uniting Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. Under McKee’s distorted outlook nobody, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter, woman or child was free from being murdered in his undemocratic pursuit of his version of a United Ireland.

McKee's bigotry and hatred were astounding and were more suited to the medieval Jesuits of the Inquisition. When PSNI officer Ronan Kerr was murdered in 2011, he told the Irish News that “Ronan Kerr knew when he donned that uniform what was in front of him... You can’t expect us to go down and start shedding tears for some of them. Not me.” Not long after that he was excoriated for the Bloody Friday / Belfast city centre bombing and his trite excuse was that it “didn’t come off as expected”. He did not have the courage to state how he expected the 20 bombs to ‘come off’ adding “I’m not going to condemn it or the men that carried it out,” he said. “No way.”

Similarly, to the end he had no sympathy for Mrs. McConville’s family, continuing to justify her killing because, according to him, “All I know is that Mrs McConville was found out... working for the Brits,” a claim denied by her family and reaffirmed by the Police Ombudsman as false.

Ireland is better off without people like him and his twisted supporters. Thankfully in decades to come history will view him for what he really was.

fryup

surprised he called himself "Billy"

Farawayhome

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

To that and all the other claims for his 'worth' I reply that he was a brutal thug stuck in a mythical past shaped by his white Irish Catholicism, his own version of Republicanism and his warped imagination. This country in its near entirety shed not one single tear on the news of his death; he lived to a ripe old age unlike the almost 900 people murdered by the PIRA during his leadership. He was a man of extreme violence, a dinosaur, a bigot of the highest order who did not know what was the true meaning of being a ‘Republican’.

True Republicans have an agenda of uniting Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. Under McKee’s distorted outlook nobody, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter, woman or child was free from being murdered in his undemocratic pursuit of his version of a United Ireland.

McKee's bigotry and hatred were astounding and were more suited to the medieval Jesuits of the Inquisition. When PSNI officer Ronan Kerr was murdered in 2011, he told the Irish News that “Ronan Kerr knew when he donned that uniform what was in front of him... You can’t expect us to go down and start shedding tears for some of them. Not me.” Not long after that he was excoriated for the Bloody Friday / Belfast city centre bombing and his trite excuse was that it “didn’t come off as expected”. He did not have the courage to state how he expected the 20 bombs to ‘come off’ adding “I’m not going to condemn it or the men that carried it out,” he said. “No way.”

Similarly, to the end he had no sympathy for Mrs. McConville’s family, continuing to justify her killing because, according to him, “All I know is that Mrs McConville was found out... working for the Brits,” a claim denied by her family and reaffirmed by the Police Ombudsman as false.

Ireland is better off without people like him and his twisted supporters. Thankfully in decades to come history will view him for what he really was.

Not the thread for this muck. You've already exposed yourself as a hypocrite and your analysis of those who stood up to British terrorism comes straight from the partitionist playbook, completely ignorant of the facts and what life was like for Nationalists in the north.

pedroeibar1

Farawayhome wrote: »

Not the thread for this muck. You've already exposed yourself as a hypocrite and your analysis of those who stood up to British terrorism comes straight from the partitionist playbook, completely ignorant of the facts and what life was like for Nationalists in the north.

My analysis of McKee comes from his own words and actions, all of which are readily available in decades of reputable media reports. A thug is a thug, Loyalist or Nationalist. I would write similar if anyone started praising Lenny Murphy or his ilk and saying what great people they were.

If you believe this is not the place to criticise historical actions and want to limit discussion to heaping praise on a dead person, perhaps you'd be better off on RIP.ie.

Farawayhome

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

My analysis of McKee comes from his own words and actions, all of which are readily available in decades of reputable media reports. A thug is a thug, Loyalist or Nationalist. I would write similar if anyone started praising Lenny Murphy or his ilk and saying what great people they were.

If you believe this is not the place to criticise historical actions and want to limit discussion to heaping praise on a dead person, perhaps you'd be better off on RIP.ie.

Again you are showing extreme ignorance. You don't have a clue what you are talking about. You've been educated by the independent newspaper. But as I said, this is not the thread for it, it's not an opportunity for you to spread your bile.

_blaaz

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

My analysis of McKee comes from his own words and actions, all of which are readily available in decades of reputable media reports. A thug is a thug.

Are you sure your not letting your personal.opioion cloud your judgement?


Calling the guy a thug is a personal opioion and surely its largly questionable as to wheter.its a fact or not,depending on ones worldview??




His actions have undoubtfully shaped modern ireland(wheter good or bad,depends on personal view)....but screaming thug over and over and shouting down anyone who wants to discuss the topic deosnt lend itself to debate??

BalcombeSt4

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Go read your opening post. You wrote it was a ‘notable death’. It was not, other than for the longevity of his life, most males are dead by that age. If you meant he was a notable person you should have said so.

What an asinine comment. Collins fought a military war against military; while he had no hesitation in ordering the trigger to be squeezed it was against soldiers/police. He did not indiscriminately plant bombs to kill civilians or shoot innocents.

And Billy McKee was interned by fairies was he? :rolleyes: McKee also had no hesitation in ordering (or pulling the trigger himself, something Collins failed to do during the WOI) against military police, soldiers & armed loyalists.

Every war is dirty, there is no serious war in the 20th century were both sides weren't guillty of at least dozens of killings of civilians. There's nomoral difference between Dunmanway or Kingsmill, you just want to paint the military leaders of the earliery massacre as some kind of godlike heroes with no faults, and paint the latter as sadists.

One difference is the men of the 20's were the vast majority carrying out a revolution with popular support & in the process of nation building. The men of McKee's time were a hated minority, trying to survive in a Orange Tyranny, which had the full backing of the state, British military, paramilitary police & loyalist death squads behind it, nothing that the men of the 20's had to deal with at all, for a start the Black & Tans & RIC were the main force they were fighting not the British Army. Simple fact is if Cllins & his men with the support of the nation behind him had carried out his job fully in 1918 - 1921, then there would have been no reason for men like McKee, Twomey & Cahill to carry out armed actions in the 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's.

BalcombeSt4

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

To that and all the other claims for his 'worth' I reply that he was a brutal thug stuck in a mythical past shaped by his white Irish Catholicism, his own version of Republicanism and his warped imagination. This country in its near entirety shed not one single tear on the news of his death; he lived to a ripe old age unlike the almost 900 people murdered by the PIRA during his leadership. He was a man of extreme violence, a dinosaur, a bigot of the highest order who did not know what was the true meaning of being a ‘Republican’.

True Republicans have an agenda of uniting Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter. Under McKee’s distorted outlook nobody, Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter, woman or child was free from being murdered in his undemocratic pursuit of his version of a United Ireland.

McKee's bigotry and hatred were astounding and were more suited to the medieval Jesuits of the Inquisition. When PSNI officer Ronan Kerr was murdered in 2011, he told the Irish News that “Ronan Kerr knew when he donned that uniform what was in front of him... You can’t expect us to go down and start shedding tears for some of them. Not me.” Not long after that he was excoriated for the Bloody Friday / Belfast city centre bombing and his trite excuse was that it “didn’t come off as expected”. He did not have the courage to state how he expected the 20 bombs to ‘come off’ adding “I’m not going to condemn it or the men that carried it out,” he said. “No way.”

Similarly, to the end he had no sympathy for Mrs. McConville’s family, continuing to justify her killing because, according to him, “All I know is that Mrs McConville was found out... working for the Brits,” a claim denied by her family and reaffirmed by the Police Ombudsman as false.

Ireland is better off without people like him and his twisted supporters. Thankfully in decades to come history will view him for what he really was.

Your just pissed off at him because he saved the lives of the Nationalist people in the Short Strand, if it was left to your like it would have been a repeat of the 69 pogroms on a even larger scale with probably dozens of men, women & children murdered and thousands burned out of their homes.

pedroeibar1

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

And Billy McKee was interned by fairies was he? :rolleyes: McKee also had no hesitation in ordering (or pulling the trigger himself, something Collins failed to do during the WOI) against military police, soldiers & armed loyalists.

Every war is dirty, there is no serious war in the 20th century were both sides weren't guillty of at least dozens of killings of civilians. There's nomoral difference between Dunmanway or Kingsmill, you just want to paint the military leaders of the earliery massacre as some kind of godlike heroes with no faults, and paint the latter as sadists.

One difference is the men of the 20's were the vast majority carrying out a revolution with popular support & in the process of nation building. The men of McKee's time were a hated minority, trying to survive in a Orange Tyranny, which had the full backing of the state, British military, paramilitary police & loyalist death squads behind it, nothing that the men of the 20's had to deal with at all, for a start the Black & Tans & RIC were the main force they were fighting not the British Army. Simple fact is if Cllins & his men with the support of the nation behind him had carried out his job fully in 1918 - 1921, then there would have been no reason for men like McKee, Twomey & Cahill to carry out armed actions in the 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's.

More twisted logic there along with unfounded assertions and historical inaccuracies (even after you've edited out the most outlandish!).

There is a huge moral difference between an attack on armed personnel and the planting of bombs in public places that will indiscriminately kill innocent civilians. The War of Independence was fought by the IRA in a manner that met any moral code. The IRA of those years had the support of the people who wanted independence, which is how/why they won; the IRA of later years did not, even less so the PIRA because the people, North and South, saw that organisation as the drug-dealing bank robbing thugs it was – look at the laudatory mention in an earlier post of the criminal Slab Murphy. Furthermore, Collins was an elected leader with full support of the people. McKee and his murdering cronies did not have that support, and in your own words

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

“The men of McKee's time were a hated minority”

(you nailed it there!) Knee-capping is not the way to win friends or influence people.
There is no doubt that the Nationalist community suffered, there is no doubt that the RUC, B Specials and co. were bigots, and that the catholic community suffered, but the simple fact remains that in election after election the Sinn Fein / IRA/ ‘revolutionary’ candidates never achieved anything. You and those few who share your outlook fail to realise that this population does not want a 32 county socialist republic and that we regard your idols as self-serving thugs.

BalcombeSt4

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

More twisted logic there along with unfounded assertions and historical inaccuracies (even after you've edited out the most outlandish!).

There is a huge moral difference between an attack on armed personnel and the planting of bombs in public places that will indiscriminately kill innocent civilians. The War of Independence was fought by the IRA in a manner that met any moral code. The IRA of those years had the support of the people who wanted independence, which is how/why they won; the IRA of later years did not, even less so the PIRA because the people, North and South, saw that organisation as the drug-dealing bank robbing thugs it was – look at the laudatory mention in an earlier post of the criminal Slab Murphy. Furthermore, Collins was an elected leader with full support of the people. McKee and his murdering cronies did not have that support, and in your own words (you nailed it there!) Knee-capping is not the way to win friends or influence people.
There is no doubt that the Nationalist community suffered, there is no doubt that the RUC, B Specials and co. were bigots, and that the catholic community suffered, but the simple fact remains that in election after election the Sinn Fein / IRA/ ‘revolutionary’ candidates never achieved anything. You and those few who share your outlook fail to realise that this population does not want a 32 county socialist republic and that we regard your idols as self-serving thugs.

There called facts you should try using them. And when I said the "men of McKee's time" I mean't the Nationalist people of the North were a hated minority.

Oh, so you you speak for the whole 5+ million people now how very noble of you, why don't they just do away with any elections and let you make choices for them? You don't seem to share the view of anybody in this thread however.

And the Irish people acting as a single unit were never given a chance to vote on a whether or not they wanted a 32 county Reoublic. But of course they have fascists like you to tell them want they want. The Irish people didn't vote on austerity either but they still got it.

Collins & his cronies who followed after he was killed, murdered more people in the space of 4 & half years than the Provos did in 30. Were does dragging out POW,s tieing them to land mines & then blowing them to pieces fit into your theory of a good clean war? or exectuting three times the numbers of POW's in 11 months than the British did in a year?

BalcombeSt4

And your statement that the Old IRA never usede bombs is also a lie. During the last few months of the WOI & the Civil War they planted hundreds of bombs & mines, killings dozens & injuring hundreds.

BalcombeSt4

_blaaz wrote: »

Are you sure your not letting your personal.opioion cloud your judgement?


Calling the guy a thug is a personal opioioHis actions have undoubtfully shaped mn and surely its largly questionable as to wheter.its a fact or not,depending on ones worldview??




odern ireland(wheter good or bad,depends on personal view)....but screaming thug over and over and shouting down anyone who wants to discuss the topic deosnt lend itself to debate??

Well that's how most fascists operate.

_blaaz

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well that's how most fascists operate.

Hes basically ruined what could been an interesting subject matter by screaming over everyone else and shouting down any debate here


Why bother starting threads on recent irish history,if its allowed descend into a mess like this

pedroeibar1

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

There called facts you should try using them. And when I said the "men of McKee's time" I mean't the Nationalist people of the North were a hated minority.

If you cannot spell or write lucid English that is your issue – you said McKee and his ilk were a ‘hated minority’ – you were correct and I simply agreed because McKee & Co did not have the support of the people as illustrated by the fact they operated in tiny cells, they had to do this for fear of informers and infiltration. They had almost no public support. Compare that with the IRA of the War of Indep, where 90% of the population supported them, which allowed a Brigade structure for part-timers and for flying columns to live among them. I have written elsewhere of how after Burntollet there was considerable support for the IRA but they lost it very quickly through their actions, particularly those of people like McKee.

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Oh, so you you speak for the whole 5+ million people now how very noble of you, why don't they just do away with any elections and let you make choices for them? You don't seem to share the view of anybody in this thread however.
And the Irish people acting as a single unit were never given a chance to vote on a whether or not they wanted a 32 county Reoublic. But of course they have fascists like you to tell them want they want. The Irish people didn't vote on austerity either but they still got it.

You’re dreaming again. I never made those claims. However, lots of people share my view, just like this forum, where many just don’t bother when you post rubbish. I like facts and when I see people like you trying to whitewash history I point out the stupidities.

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Collins & his cronies who followed after he was killed, murdered more people in the space of 4 & half years than the Provos did in 30. Were does dragging out POW,s tieing them to land mines & then blowing them to pieces fit into your theory of a good clean war? or exectuting three times the numbers of POW's in 11 months than the British did in a year?

Very odd and badly wrong assertions there. I never said Collins/Old IRA fought a clean war, I said the fought a military one. Your claim that Collins & followers killed more people that the Provos is plain silly. It shows your complete ignorance of the subject matter. It is estimated that during the WoI era the IRA killed about 250 British soldiers and about 350 RIC. Civilians shot were a few hundred, mainly in the belief that they were informers. Say 1,000 at most. The IRA during the post-1969 troubles killed more than 2,000, including some of their own (splinter groups) and people who interfered with their drug-dealing rackets. As a fan of McKee you should at least get his body count attribution correct!

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

And your statement that the Old IRA never usede bombs is also a lie. During the last few months of the WOI & the Civil War they planted hundreds of bombs & mines, killings dozens & injuring hundreds.

Wrong again. I never claimed the IRA did not plant bombs, I said they did not plant bombs indiscriminately. Those are facts. You do realise that the YouTube clip you showed/linked has again proved my point as it shows a bomb attack on a British troop train? Do you recall a previous thread where you pointed out that the IRA had removed a bomb/road mine because a local funeral was going to take that route?
The more you write Balcombe the more you show your ignorance of historical fact and your skewed blinkered outlook. You and sidekick Blaaz’s name-calling (I'm not a fascist BTW) and posting stupidities are the reasons why this thread has gone nowhere, coupled with people’s total disinterest in those setting out to glorify a dead nonagenarian who has very bloody hands.