Bad fuel

mp3guy

Car has been in the garage 10 days and they just told me it was a bad fuel mix that's the cause of orange engine light it has had. What's my recourse here? Will the garage I fueled up in have any of it or am I just screwed ultimately?

Cordell

You need more that your mechanic saying. Technically speaking, bad fuel don't cause engine light, but it will cause a condition that can trigger the engine light. And you need to know that condition (i.e. some sort of knock detected or misfire error) before blaming it on the fuel.

But if your mechanic is dead serious about it, it's worth going to the garage and have a chat.
If it's a case of petrol in diesel it can be detected by the smell.

Toyotafanboi

Fairly unlikely to be bad fuel, but never say never. Too many garages put a fault down to "bad fuel" rather than conclusively find the issue.

What car, year, engine? Who is working on it and what are they looking to replace?

mp3guy

Cordell wrote: »

You need more that your mechanic saying. Technically speaking, bad fuel don't cause engine light, but it will cause a condition that can trigger the engine light. And you need to know that condition (i.e. some sort of knock detected or misfire error) before blaming it on the fuel.

But if your mechanic is dead serious about it, it's worth going to the garage and have a chat.
If it's a case of petrol in diesel it can be detected by the smell.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Fairly unlikely to be bad fuel, but never say never. Too many garages put a fault down to "bad fuel" rather than conclusively find the issue.

What car, year, engine? Who is working on it and what are they looking to replace?

Engine light caused by oxygen sensor for emissions. They replaced it and the light came on again.

2019 Yaris Hybrid Petrol. Toyota garage has had it for 10 days. After first sensor replacement they gave it back to me and light was back on again at 25km.

Cordell

So a new car under warranty. Did they replace it under warranty or asked you to pay? Did they provide you with a written diagnostics?

Toyotafanboi

Obviously this is just speculation but it sounds terribly unlikely that that's caused from bad fuel. I thought you were going to say a ten year old Passat diesel or something.

Are they looking at fitting another o2 sensor now at your expense or what's the plan? No chance i'd be going along with that based on what you've said anyway, tbh.

mp3guy

Cordell wrote: »

So a new car under warranty. Did they replace it under warranty or asked you to pay? Did they provide you with a written diagnostics?

They replaced the sensor twice, just rang me to say they reckon it's bad fuel and they have to now check how much I'll have to pay given it's not covered by warranty. No written diagnostics yet, planning to ask for it.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Obviously this is just speculation but it sounds terribly unlikely that that's caused from bad fuel. I thought you were going to say a ten year old Passat diesel or something.

Are they looking at fitting another o2 sensor now at your expense or what's the plan? No chance i'd be going along with that based on what you've said anyway, tbh.

They've fit 2 at this stage and they keep flagging up for them apparently, now determining if I'll have to pay.

It wasn't my usual petrol station and the light did come on about 25km after refueling at the garage from an empty tank.

Cordell

Bad fuel can void your engine warranty (and other components like the exhaust) so I'll be very careful in accepting such a diagnostic without proper paperwork including fuel analysis.

Alanstrainor

Completely agree with others, I was expecting you to say this was a 10 year old car with plenty of miles, not something brand new. The excuse of 'bad fuel' is 99.9% of the time nonsense to be honest.

They should be able to read exactly what the o2 sensors are reading and determine if they are faulty. Replacing them twice would lead you to believe that they are not faulty, or that there is something else wrong causing them to fail. More information required, and it sounds like a terrible customer experience from a dealer.

Toyotafanboi

mp3guy wrote: »

They've fit 2 at this stage and they keep flagging up for them apparently, now determining if I'll have to pay.

It wasn't my usual petrol station and the light did come on about 25km after refueling at the garage from an empty tank.

Don't rule out that it could be bad fuel, but it is highly unlikely. If you bought from a brand name, modern station, it's very unlikely. You should be able to get an initial impression from the look and smell of a sample.

The definition of stupidity here would be to fit a third o2 sensor it seems, so I definitely wouldn't be entertaining it at my cost, for now. Sounds like they need to do a little more troubleshooting, have they escalated this to the manufacturer?

alias no.9

Until they have had the fuel analysed in a reputable lab and found to be contaminated, you have a problem with an unknown cause. When you try to fix problems like this without finding the root cause, success rates are low.

mp3guy

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Don't rule out that it could be bad fuel, but it is highly unlikely. If you bought from a brand name, modern station, it's very unlikely. You should be able to get an initial impression from the look and smell of a sample.

The definition of stupidity here would be to fit a third o2 sensor it seems, so I definitely wouldn't be entertaining it at my cost, for now. Sounds like they need to do a little more troubleshooting, have they escalated this to the manufacturer?

It was a brand name station with an independent name attached to it, on a very busy road in and out of a city.

They've been talking with "Toyota up in Dublin" about it the whole time.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

mp3guy wrote: »

It was a brand name station with an independent name attached to it, on a very busy road in and out of a city.

They've been talking with "Toyota up in Dublin" about it the whole time.

I know you want to be careful about naming places as you're still in early stages but a brand name and independent name means nothing .

Could be anyone or anything.


But in regards to bad fuel, if it is (not saying it is or isn't) it is a possibility.

When I worked in a garage we had a few cars come in with fuel issues from the same brand of fuel company. To the point we were draining tanks , flushing etc. And using fuel from elsewhere and solving the issue.

Again I'm not saying this is your issue but it could be possible.

For reference what was your last car and did you fuel in same place and what issues did that car have ?

Also remembering co2 sensors are supposed to tell of issues regarding emissions etc and because this is a brand new hybrid, it's very possible it's doing its job here.

mp3guy

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I know you want to be careful about naming places as you're still in early stages but a brand name and independent name means nothing .

Could be anyone or anything.


But in regards to bad fuel, if it is (not saying it is or isn't) it is a possibility.

When I worked in a garage we had a few cars come in with fuel issues from the same brand of fuel company. To the point we were draining tanks , flushing etc. And using fuel from elsewhere and solving the issue.

Again I'm not saying this is your issue but it could be possible.

For reference what was your last car and did you fuel in same place and what issues did that car have ?

Also remembering co2 sensors are supposed to tell of issues regarding emissions etc and because this is a brand new hybrid, it's very possible it's doing its job here.

Never fueled at this particular station before, was just opportune.

_Brian

Fuel needs to be tested and then get another sample from the garage ASAP hopefully before they refill tanks.

If it is bad fuel there will be more punters in trouble so you need to see can you contact any.

Bad fuel won’t just affect one car.

mp3guy

_Brian wrote: »

Fuel needs to be tested and then get another sample from the garage ASAP hopefully before they refill tanks.

If it is bad fuel there will be more punters in trouble so you need to see can you contact any.

Bad fuel won’t just affect one car.

It's almost two weeks since I fueled up there, any point going by now?

Vic_08

So this is a new car and they are already at the blame someone else/it's not covered by warranty/you're going to have to pay for our repairs stage.

Bad fuel is a top bullsh*t excuse for this sort of nonsense, I would require an independent lab analysis before even entertaining any claim for them not to be covering all costs of repairing this car.


If as they claim it was bad fuel I assume they drained the tank, cleaned out the fuel lines and refilled with top quality Toyota Dealer Fuel then?

mp3guy

Vic_08 wrote: »

So this is a new car and they are already at the blame someone else/it's not covered by warranty/you're going to have to pay for our repairs stage.

Bad fuel is a top bullsh*t excuse for this sort of nonsense, I would require an independent lab analysis before even entertaining any claim for them not to be covering all costs of repairing this car.


If as they claim it was bad fuel I assume they drained the tank, cleaned out the fuel lines and refilled with top quality Toyota Dealer Fuel then?

I'm not sure if they have already drained it, they called me half an hour before the garage closes to tell me their diagnosis. Not sure what I should do if I ring tomorrow and that's the case.

Sneak

Happened to my father recently. There was construction work going on adjacent to the underground fuel tanks. Water had been leaking in to them. Large number of vehicles effected. Just by pure luck he happened to keep the fuel receipt from the day he bought it otherwise your man was having none of it. I doubt you'll be the only one if this is the case.

Rows Grower

mp3guy wrote: »

It's almost two weeks since I fueled up there, any point going by now?

Go back and buy a few litres in a container, and then tell the owner of the petrol station of your experience.

harr

I have seen a ford garage try this before with a neighbor of mine, 2 month old car was in work shop for two weeks and they couldn’t find the fault and suddenly it was bad fuel and said warranty would not cover it and he would have to chase the petrol station for the cost.
He contacted garage owner and explained what ford had said and they were having none of it and said of the 200+ customers that day not one had complained but he did offer to get the fuel independently tested to be 100% and told him to get a sample from his car and to get it tested.
Conveniently the ford dealership said they had drained so the called dodgy fuel..forecourt made contact with ford ireland and sent them lab reports and solicitors letter.
In the end ford had no choice but to fix the issue which they couldn’t so neighbors got a replacement car.

Of course the possibility is there that the fuel was the issue but it’s definitely unlikely.

phill106

Unless the garage has a lab report, which can be verified by an independent lab of your choosing, I wouldnt accept that answer.
May as well say aliens did it!

If they stand behind saying it is bad fuel, they have to provide the proof. If the proof exists, its then up to the petrol station to pay for the costs. If no proof exists, then it is still with the garage for blame.

Rows Grower

I remember a friend of mine bought a brand new car and after a couple of months I asked how it was going, she listed off all the problems she had and how many times it had been back to the garage since she bought it, every time they gave her a great replacement car on loan until they eventually replaced the car she bought with another new one.

The explanation and apology she got was she got a "Monday morning car".

mp3guy

Alright here's the update. I spoke to the mechanic working on the car this morning and he said it is indeed bad fuel. They took a sample of the fuel out and burned it, it was smoking a bit when burning and left a greasy oily residue.

The drained the lines, cleaned the tank, put a full tank of new petrol in, drove the car 60km and had no issues.

I asked for a sample to lab test and they said no problem, they always keep samples and I can pick one up with the car. They also said they'll provide a written diagnostics stating that the fuel was contaminated.

They said they've 7 hours labor on the car already but will only be charging me for 3.5 as the work won't be covered under warranty.

So, is it bad fuel? Either they're lying and will give me a made up bad sample or it was truly bad and I go after the petrol station now?

bucketybuck

mp3guy wrote: »

So, is it bad fuel?

Nobody here can answer that.

I can tell you that it is certainly possible that the fuel was bad, I've seen a lot of bad fuel in my time (though our customers are slightly different and many have their own fuel tanks).

If they are giving you a sample and a lot of paperwork stating it was bad fuel then I imagine they are confident that there was an issue there, simply because if the fault reoccurs in the next few weeks despite good fuel in the vehicle, they know it will be straight back on their shoulders as a misdiagnosis.

I know if there was a fault happening every 25km, that if bad fuel would cause that fault, and that when they flushed the system that the fault stopped happening, then occams razor would say that it was actually bad fuel.

You have a sample, and not many garages keep bad fuel with a specific problem in jars just for the chance to screw over a customer. Get it tested if you don't believe them, but I would put some miles on the car before doing any thing else, see if that fault reoccurs again or not.

mp3guy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Nobody here can answer that.

I can tell you that it is certainly possible that the fuel was bad, I've seen a lot of bad fuel in my time (though our customers are slightly different and many have their own fuel tanks).

If they are giving you a sample and a lot of paperwork stating it was bad fuel then I imagine they are confident that there was an issue there, simply because if the fault reoccurs in the next few weeks despite good fuel in the vehicle, they know it will be straight back on their shoulders as a misdiagnosis.

I know if there was a fault happening every 25km, that if bad fuel would cause that fault, and that when they flushed the system that the fault stopped happening, then occams razor would say that it was actually bad fuel.

You have a sample, and not many garages keep bad fuel with a specific problem in jars just for the chance to screw over a customer. Get it tested if you don't believe them, but I would put some miles on the car before doing any thing else, see if that fault reoccurs again or not.

Mostly a rhetorical question admittedly. In terms of evidence the fuel is from the petrol station in question, I only have the visa debit transaction line on my bank statement. I might have dashcam footage of myself driving into the station to fuel up too, if it hasn't been written over at this point.

pippip

Well if it truly is bad fuel the petrol station must be inundated given how many filled up.

Good luck. Hopefully manager is honest if this is the case.

harr

pippip wrote: »

Well if it truly is bad fuel the petrol station must be inundated given how many filled up.

Good luck. Hopefully manager is honest if this is the case.

This , you won’t be the only one if it was bad fuel . Probably dozens of cars affected if in fact it was the fuel. Contact the forecourt now and explain what has happened and ask if they had an issue the day you filled up. I still would not be 100% confident the fuel the mechanic gives you is from your car, very easy for them to contaminate a sample and give it to you.

bucketybuck

harr wrote: »

I still would not be 100% confident the fuel the mechanic gives you is from your car, very easy for them to contaminate a sample and give it to you.

What do they do when the fault reoccurs?

mp3guy

bucketybuck wrote: »

What do they do when the fault reoccurs?

*Hypothetically* make the excuse I put bad fuel in once and it caused damage?

bucketybuck

mp3guy wrote: »

*Hypothetically* make the excuse I put bad fuel in once and it caused damage?

Absolutely. Bad fuel can cause ongoing issues with fuel systems.

But what is the suggestion here? That the fuel was fine but that the garage is trying to scam money out of the customer?

If they haven't fixed the fault and are just saying it was fuel anyway, then the fault will just keep happening and they know it will be a serious argument with the customer down the line. They will know their paperwork will be going back to the fuel supplier in the first place, and they know if the car is brought elsewhere and fixed properly then they will be shown up. That has solicitor written all over it and so just wouldn't be worth it if it were my garage.

Is it that they have fixed the fault, have claimed that aspect from warranty but also want to make a bit on the side from the customer by claiming fuel contamination? Its possible, just unlikely because who needs that bloody hassle, I'm a long time in this trade and for various reasons I wouldn't see it done.

Or is it that the fuel was bad, caused a few faults, that flushing the system has done the trick and they are confident enough to give samples and put their name to a report on the repair?

mp3guy

bucketybuck wrote: »

Absolutely. Bad fuel can cause ongoing issues with fuel systems.

But what is the suggestion here? That the fuel was fine but that the garage is trying to scam money out of the customer?

If they haven't fixed the fault and are just saying it was fuel anyway, then the fault will just keep happening and they know it will be a serious argument with the customer down the line. They will know their paperwork will be going back to the fuel supplier in the first place, and they know if the car is brought elsewhere and fixed properly then they will be shown up. That has solicitor written all over it and so just wouldn't be worth it if it were my garage.

Is it that they have fixed the fault, have claimed that aspect from warranty but also want to make a bit on the side from the customer by claiming fuel contamination? Its possible, just unlikely because who needs that bloody hassle, I'm a long time in this trade and for various reasons I wouldn't see it done.

Or is it that the fuel was bad, caused a few faults, that flushing the system has done the trick and they are confident enough to give samples and put their name to a report on the repair?

This is a good breakdown of all possible scenarios.

I picked up the car, written diagnostic, fuel sample and bill

Car was in the garage for 10 days, they changed the oxygen sensor twice I think and then did the tank clean / line flush for €360.

What's my next steps? I drive it about 50km a day and the problem showed up at about 40km in the past so I'd imagine I'll encounter it pretty soon if it's still there. And they say they drove it 60km yesterday without issues on fresh fuel.

If it was bad fuel, which is seeming more likely, the car was driven about 100km on it. I asked about my warranty being intact and the mechanic said "I don't know". He said he wasn't going to report to Toyota that it was fuel contamination, but obviously if permanent damage has been done beyond overheating and blowing the sensors in the catalytic converter, there's a big question sitting over the warranty as fundamentally it's my fault. I took it as, if it's fine now you're fine, if it's not you're not.

The fuel sample itself looks and smells alright as he told me when he gave it to me, but he said it's when it burns it leaves a greasy oily residue. Any recommendations on where/how to get it tested? I found this crowd but I'm not sure they're what I want? https://tellab.ie/fuel-enigine-oil/

ohnonotgmail

mp3guy wrote: »

This is a good breakdown of all possible scenarios.

I picked up the car, written diagnostic, fuel sample and bill

Car was in the garage for 10 days, they changed the oxygen sensor twice I think and then did the tank clean / line flush for €360.

What's my next steps? I drive it about 50km a day and the problem showed up at about 40km in the past so I'd imagine I'll encounter it pretty soon if it's still there. And they say they drove it 60km yesterday without issues on fresh fuel.

If it was bad fuel, which is seeming more likely, the car was driven about 100km on it. I asked about my warranty being intact and the mechanic said "I don't know". He said he wasn't going to report to Toyota that it was fuel contamination, but obviously if permanent damage has been done beyond overheating and blowing the sensors in the catalytic converter, there's a big question sitting over the warranty as fundamentally it's my fault. I took it as, if it's fine now you're fine, if it's not you're not.

The fuel sample itself looks and smells alright as he told me when he gave it to me, but he said it's when it burns it leaves a greasy oily residue. Any recommendations on where/how to get it tested? I found this crowd but I'm not sure they're what I want? https://tellab.ie/fuel-enigine-oil/

that is the lab that the IRPA use so they should be able to test it for you. whether they will do it as a one-off is another matter. contact them and ask.

gctest50

http://www.indlab.ie/

too, someone on here uses them

seagull

Have you been back to the petrol station to get a sample?

bucketybuck

gctest50 wrote: »

http://www.indlab.ie/

too, someone on here uses them

We also use them, found them a bit pricy though, €90-120 as I recall.

mp3guy

seagull wrote: »

Have you been back to the petrol station to get a sample?

Literally just collected 4 litres in a can from the same pump, with a receipt.

bucketybuck

mp3guy wrote: »

If it was bad fuel, which is seeming more likely, the car was driven about 100km on it. I asked about my warranty being intact and the mechanic said "I don't know". He said he wasn't going to report to Toyota that it was fuel contamination, but obviously if permanent damage has been done beyond overheating and blowing the sensors in the catalytic converter, there's a big question sitting over the warranty as fundamentally it's my fault. I took it as, if it's fine now you're fine, if it's not you're not.

Thats all they really can say unfortunately. I have seen vehicles with contaminated fuel give a lot of trouble and end up with a lot of parts replaced, and I have seen vehicles get flushed and then hear no more about it. Its very hard to know the extent of any damage and since nobody is just going to replace everything as a preventative measure then the only option is to wait and see. My gut would say that you'll probably be fine now, but it really depends. I think if you are doing 50km a day then you should see a recurrence pretty soon if it is going to happen.

What I would do is go to the fuel station and speak to them now. State your case, give them a sample of your sample and ask them to cover the cost of the repair. Not so much to reclaim the €360, but more so that if the fault does reoccur and you end up with a bill of thousands, that you have a record of reporting this to them at the time, that could be important in any possible future legal action.

harr

Any update OP ...car still running and what way did the forecourt deal with it ?

mp3guy

Car is running perfectly, must have driven 200km on it now. Haven't had a chance to get back to them yet.

mp3guy

I finally have an update for everyone.

After securing the written diagnostic and fuel sample I decided to email the head office of the forecourt chain before wasting my time and money on getting it tested.

They emailed back same day saying they don't manage any stations directly and offered to forward my email to the owner, also saying they hope it gets resolved.

The owner emailed back the next day saying he will deal with it immediately and contact the garage that discovered the problem.

A week later I had heard nothing so emailed him asking for an update and got the following response;

Good morning mp3guy,
Yes I believe we have the possible answer.We received a delivery from <supplier> on that Saturday morning.Having spoken to the supervisor in <garage> that worked on your car ,it appears that there was an excessive amount of Bio-fuel in the sample that they extracted.This Bio-fuel is added to the petrol in the terminal as per govt regulation but judging by the sample it appears not to have been mixed through sufficiently .On a positve note as this is added to all unleaded and diesel sold in Ireland it does not cause any lasting damage once flushed through.Can you confirm that the car is working ok now.Obviously this is an issue that <supplier> will have to take responsiblity for.Therefore I will re-imburse you for any out of pocket expenses that you have and I will take it up with <supplier> thereafter.
I can either leave a cheque for you behind the counter in the garage or post it ,whichever is more convenient.<garage> had disposed of the sample in their garage so if you still have it can I get it off you as the oil company want to see how this error could have happened.I am not in the business of pulling the wool over peoples eyes,the fact that we had just received a delivery before you filled leads me to believe this is the only logical conclusion.Subsequent samples indicate that all is fine since.
Please accept my apologies mp3guy for this unfortunate event.It seems to have been a case of bad timing.
Regards
<owner>

Sure enough I picked up the cheque this morning and dropped off half of the sample I had.

honda boi

Fair play happy days!!

Odyssey 2005

A very honest reply. Great result ,well done OP.

CoBo55

That's great, garage owner sounds like a decent guy.

gonko

Very good garage owner and no messing around. Great outcome.

corks finest

mp3guy wrote:

Sure enough I picked up the cheque this morning and dropped off half of the sample I had.

Well delighted there's an honest business man left and you got sorted

pippip

Have you got any clarification from the garage who repaired the car as to whether this will effect your warranty in the future?

Could it come up as an excuse if you have another issue with the engine in the future. I know the forecourt said it shouldn't cause any damage but have the garage agreed with that. You don't want a situation where they blame this incident on something else and you have to go back to forecourt, they may not be as willing to cough up next time.

If your warranty is effected then you're gonna need a solicitor.