Attic Conversion - do we have to put a door at top of the stairs?

dancarter8

Hi,

We own a 3 storey townhouse that has a large unconverted attic (500sq ft) area on forth floor with preexisting dormer window.

We are looking at converting the attic into non-habitable room - for games room / study (no ensuite, will have elec, internet and tv connections)

With a new full return tapered stairs being installed from third floor to attic (taper stairs will match the existing tapered stairs below it).


3 questions :

Do we need to put a door at top/bottom of the stairs to the non-habitable room? We would prefer to just leave it open plan (no door)?

We don't need planning permission - but do need engineer certificate of compliance?

What else do we need to install? Should we fire rate the third floor bedroom ceiling to 30 min?

We will have linked 10 year battery operated fire alarms on each of the 4 floors, self closing firedoors throughout the property, 30 min fire rated corridor to exit (meets standards when townhouse was developed in the 90's).

Thanks

Gumbo

Technical Guidance Document Part B
2017 dwelling houses.

Will this now be a 4 storey house?
If so there are further requirements such as external stairs, sprinklers possible?

o1s1n

kceire wrote: »

Technical Guidance Document Part B
2017 dwelling houses.

Will this now be a 4 storey house?
If so there are further requirements such as external stairs, sprinklers possible?

They did say 'non-habitable room' though.

Gumbo

o1s1n wrote: »

They did say 'non-habitable room' though.

Makes no difference.
You may just be able to argue this in a 3 storey house with fire rated escape stairs as the New Part B allows for non habitable family rooms at the third storey that don’t need alternative means of escape, but in a 4 storey house, forget about it.

RORY O CONNOR

If you have no door at the top of the stairs then you do not comply with one of the many rules in place for use a habitable space so it can't be certifed as such. You may only get certification that is exempt from planning so long as any Velux is to the rear and then it can only legally be used a storage space.

Gumbo

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

If you have no door at the top of the stairs then you do not comply with one of the many rules in place for use a habitable space so it can't be certifed as such. You may only get certification that is exempt from planning so long as any Velux is to the rear and then it can only legally be used a storage space.

Even as storage space, how can you certify the now 4 storey building with full access to the 4th floor as confirmed by the OP in compliance with the building regulations?

RORY O CONNOR

kceire wrote: »

Even as storage space, how can you certify the now 4 storey building with full access to the 4th floor as confirmed by the OP in compliance with the building regulations?

You can't-it can only be certifed as exempt from planning permission. I never suggested it could be certifed for building regulations.

dancarter8

kceire wrote: »

Technical Guidance Document Part B
2017 dwelling houses.

Will this now be a 4 storey house?
If so there are further requirements such as external stairs, sprinklers possible?

Yes attic is in forth storey (1)ground floor, 2)first floor 3)second floor and 4) attic

There is no possibility of putting in external stairs.

Are these required for non habitable room?

dancarter8

RORY O CONNOR wrote: »

If you have no door at the top of the stairs then you do not comply with one of the many rules in place for use a habitable space so it can't be certifed as such. You may only get certification that is exempt from planning so long as any Velux is to the rear and then it can only legally be used a storage space.

Thanks for the reply Rory .. if we use the space as non habitable is door at top/bottom of stairs required?

Large 6x4ft window is already in the attic space since originally constructed - so no need to add velux. We would assume we don’t need to seek planning permission for adding none habitable room ?

gctest50

The problem is (especially with a window up there), the whole thing will turn into a giant chimney if there is a fire

Gumbo

dancarter8 wrote: »

Yes attic is in forth storey (1)ground floor, 2)first floor 3)second floor and 4) attic

There is no possibility of putting in external stairs.

Are these required for non habitable room?

Some form of Fire Safety Compliance is required.
When was the house originally built?

dancarter8 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Rory .. if we use the space as non habitable is door at top/bottom of stairs required?

Large 6x4ft window is already in the attic space since originally constructed - so no need to add velux. We would assume we don’t need to seek planning permission for adding none habitable room ?

Non Habitable makes no difference, do not get hung up on this. Will the room be accessible by a fixed staircase? Yes, so its an additional storey to the dwelling, thus its a 4 storey dwelling, thus 4 storey fire regs apply. TGD Part B clarifies that Habitable means :

A room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 m2, a bathroom, toilet or shower room

It also goes on to clarify what an additional storey is :

Storey-means any of the parts into which a dwelling house is divided horizontally above or below ground level including a gallery, but excluding any part of a dwelling house situated above the level of the roof space which has not been adapted to be used for habitable purposes

So in other words, if its used as purely storage, it would have to appear that way. If you heat the space, provide outlet sockets etc then its habitable, and if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck etc

Its worth noting that the Fire door and the associated fire resistance construction as required in Diagram 3d on Page 20 show FR construction all the way to the ground floor, and by doing this you can remove the external escape route.

Planning may not be required, but that's separate legislation and nothing got to do with the Building Regulations.

Have a look at Page 19, 20 & 21 of this document - https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/technical_guidance_document_b_fire_safety_volume_2_dwelling_houses.pdf