Furniture in rental property

CrazySka

Hi,

Hoping for some advice or other perspectives if possible,

We are renting in RPZ in an apartment that we have been in for nearly 4 years.

When we moved in there were items of furniture which were in good condition or new but over the 4 years they are obviously less so, they are not wrecked by any means but have 4 years of wear and tear essentially.

These items would be basically bog standard apartment furniture if you know what i mean, lowest spec 2 seater couch and pretty standard table and chairs.

We are now keen to get some items replaced but would like to purchase them ourselves so that we can have them and potentially take them with us when we leave in a few years.

The problem comes when we are asking for these items to be removed, the lettings company is just basically saying that they can't remove them and there is no problem with us removing them but we would have to store them ourselves.

Is our request unreasonable or does anyone know what rights if any we have in this situation (I'm guessing none)?

We're kind of hoping for just a bit of helpfulness from the agency, they are a big company, coukd they really just not have anywhere to store this stuff?

Would really appreciate any info!

3DataModem

When I wanted to store a landlords furniture, I got it shifted and stored myself, then returned it when I moved out.

"They are a big company" is nonsense. Nobody has a place for sofas and tables and chairs to just sit there for several years!

A landlord with a lot of properties might be able to store or reallocate them (professional landlords sometimes have a few bits of extra stuff, and a place to store them), so ask the agent to ask the landlord, but otherwise I'd suggest calling a few storage companies.

The_Conductor

Even big companies- don't run furniture storage units.
Unfortunately- and particularly in the context of longer tenancies, we are not yet at a stage in tenancies in Ireland- where there is a sufficient demand for unfurnished units that people can go on to furnish themselves. If you go to the States- or continental Europe- unfurnished units are the norm- and tenants pick and choose their own furniture and bring it with them with them move on in time........

OP- if you want to store the landlord's furniture and get your own furniture in- thats entirely your prerogative- but unfortunately, you have no right or expectation that the landlord is going to store the furniture that is present in the unit.

Fol20

The_Conductor wrote: »

Even big companies- don't run furniture storage units.
Unfortunately- and particularly in the context of longer tenancies, we are not yet at a stage in tenancies in Ireland- where there is a sufficient demand for unfurnished units that people can go on to furnish themselves. If you go to the States- or continental Europe- unfurnished units are the norm- and tenants pick and choose their own furniture and bring it with them with them move on in time........

OP- if you want to store the landlord's furniture and get your own furniture in- thats entirely your prerogative- but unfortunately, you have no right or expectation that the landlord is going to store the furniture that is present in the unit.

Do you think we will ever get to that stage? Im sure a lot of ll want to let unfurnished however do to demand for furnished, they are forced to get them. What do you think the catalyst for this change would be?

3DataModem

Fol20 wrote: »

What do you think the catalyst for this change would be?

Long term tenancies.

The_Conductor

Fol20 wrote: »

Do you think we will ever get to that stage? Im sure a lot of ll want to let unfurnished however do to demand for furnished, they are forced to get them. What do you think the catalyst for this change would be?

The whole legislative framework is geared towards encouraging longer term tenancies. As such- the continental norm- where you rent a blank canvas, a freshly painted unit with minimal equipment- and you can paint it yourself, furnish it to your wildest whims- and simply return it- as a blank canvas, empty, clean and freshly painted at the end of tenancy- should become the norm.

There is a lot in this sort arrangement for both tenants and landlords- and it beggars belief that we haven't seriously explored this option before now.

Fol20

I agree. Im just wondering what tactics would actually change the nature of our current environment.

Fol20

3DataModem wrote: »

Long term tenancies.

We can already have long term tenancies. What would be different to our current setup

voluntary

Fol20 wrote: »

Do you think we will ever get to that stage? Im sure a lot of ll want to let unfurnished however do to demand for furnished, they are forced to get them. What do you think the catalyst for this change would be?

Catalyst would be popularity of long term rentals and long term rental price stability. So not going to happen in this country where properties are volatile and highly cyclical.

CrazySka

Thanks folks, really appreciate the replies.

Definitely seems that we will need to either take a hit on the stuff if its thrown away or else take a hit on storing it.

I guess where this stands and it probably happens a lot is when a tenancy turns into a long term tenancy.

You kinda want to think about buying your own stuff at some point if what is supplied is not of a certain standard or even isn't exactly what you want.

I can't do that at the moment (without arranging storage myself) as the furniture isn't damaged or unusable just worn and tired, it has to be damaged or unusable to be replaced and I don't want the landlord to replace it anyway, just to take it away to allow me to replace it.

In my head this was a good outcome for them as it wouldn't be being used while they stored it but there's no storage available anyway.

Its an odd situation as the furniture is probably of very little value today but conceptually retains the same value that it had at the beginning of the tenancy.

The_Conductor

CrazySka wrote: »

Its an odd situation as the furniture is probably of very little value today but conceptually retains the same value that it had at the beginning of the tenancy.

Legally the furniture is depreciated on a flatline basis over 8 years- at 12.5% per annum. As the furniture is 4 years old- it is legally worth half what it cost to buy it. It may be tired and used- however, that is how it is valued. You can thank the Revenue Commissioners for that.

CrazySka

The_Conductor wrote: »

Legally the furniture is depreciated on a flatline basis over 8 years- at 12.5% per annum. As the furniture is 4 years old- it is legally worth half what it cost to buy it. It may be tired and used- however, that is how it is valued. You can thank the Revenue Commissioners for that.

That’s really good to know, thanks Conductor.
Interesting calculation in these days of mass produced items as well, 8 years is a long lifecycle for items now where maybe it wasn’t really before.

.......

CrazySka wrote: »

That’s really good to know, thanks Conductor.
Interesting calculation in these days of mass produced items as well, 8 years is a long lifecycle for items now where maybe it wasn’t really before.

Its the opposite.

Furniture is far more disposable than it ever was. An 8 year old couch wasnt end of life 40 years ago.

Graces7

Could you maybe donate it to a Vincent de Paul furniture shop then buy similar from there when you leave this rental? Many of us buy items there and are grateful to donors.

Just a thought..

Fol20

CrazySka wrote: »

Thanks folks, really appreciate the replies.

Definitely seems that we will need to either take a hit on the stuff if its thrown away or else take a hit on storing it.

I guess where this stands and it probably happens a lot is when a tenancy turns into a long term tenancy.

You kinda want to think about buying your own stuff at some point if what is supplied is not of a certain standard or even isn't exactly what you want.

I can't do that at the moment (without arranging storage myself) as the furniture isn't damaged or unusable just worn and tired, it has to be damaged or unusable to be replaced and I don't want the landlord to replace it anyway, just to take it away to allow me to replace it.

In my head this was a good outcome for them as it wouldn't be being used while they stored it but there's no storage available anyway.

Its an odd situation as the furniture is probably of very little value today but conceptually retains the same value that it had at the beginning of the tenancy.

Its no benefit to the ll.

It costs them money to remove it.
It will cost them money on a monthly basis to store it
It will cost the money to move it back into the property.

voluntary

The_Conductor wrote: »

Legally the furniture is depreciated on a flatline basis over 8 years- at 12.5% per annum. As the furniture is 4 years old- it is legally worth half what it cost to buy it. It may be tired and used- however, that is how it is valued. You can thank the Revenue Commissioners for that.

For tax purposes yes, for calculating EOL of home equipment you'd dig deeper than that. Cheap carpets may have an estimated lifetime of 5 years while expensive/commerical grade may be expected to last 10 years or even 15.
Cheap 100 euro bed mattress from Argos would be expected to last maybe 2 years, while a 1k eur mattress would be expected to last at least 10 years.
Same apply to floors, blinds and furnitures.

It's also important whether an item is worn or damaged due to extensive use, or has it been damaged/broken due to an accident or malicious act (if furnitures disappear then I'd call it a malicious act). In case of the later tenant may be needed to compensate or fit the property with similar item. Even if let's say a sofa is 8 years old (so in terms of Revenue holds no more value), tenant can't simply get rid of it.

I believe each case would need to be looked into individually and run through an arbitrage in case the landlord and tenant can't agree a mutual stance.

voluntary

CrazySka wrote: »

Is our request unreasonable or does anyone know what rights if any we have in this situation (I'm guessing none)?

My honest advice would be to wait through the rental crisis and just move to a nicer property when you get a chance. I don't think there's much you can do unless you're prepaid to pay for the storage.

Fol20

Another route you can take is talk to agency, offer to buy a new couch, pay for removal of old couch and leave this couch when you leave. They may also have to have an opinion on the “style” of couch. This way depending on how long you intend to live there is mutually beneficial for both parties.

antoinolachtnai

The_Conductor wrote: »

Legally the furniture is depreciated on a flatline basis over 8 years- at 12.5% per annum. As the furniture is 4 years old- it is legally worth half what it cost to buy it. It may be tired and used- however, that is how it is valued. You can thank the Revenue Commissioners for that.

This is untrue.

The Revenue make no provision for depreciation on goods in a rental, legally binding or otherwise.

Just because something was depreciated to half original value it does not mean it would be ‘legally worth half’. All this tells you is the net book value. The net book value is an accounting concept, not a legal concept.

Claw Hammer

The_Conductor wrote: »

Legally the furniture is depreciated on a flatline basis over 8 years- at 12.5% per annum. As the furniture is 4 years old- it is legally worth half what it cost to buy it. It may be tired and used- however, that is how it is valued. You can thank the Revenue Commissioners for that.

This is just a convention applied by the Revenue. It was 7 years at one time. Some items will have a nil value after 4 years and others may have in increased value. A mattress of 5 years old is almost certainly worthless whereas a painting may even have increased in value. In deposit retention cases the RTB take into account a missing or damaged item may have had to be replaced and will adjust the compensation accordingly.

Moomintroll99

The furniture in rentals thing is unique to Ireland, at least in terms of other countries I have lived in. As a foreigner I found it baffling and was delighted when we bought our place to leave behind the yucky rental furniture.

I would just do as a PP suggested & sell off the old furniture, buy your nice new new furniture, then when you leave just get some sofas and things of equal status to the ones you got rid of to re-furnish the rental. There is a pretty big market in crappy rental furniture from what I can see, as a lot of people have this issue.

(Your original sofa, having been bought by a landlord and re-sold by tenants who hate it a thousand times over, will probably be there waiting for you...)

Fol20

Moomintroll99 wrote: »

The furniture in rentals thing is unique to Ireland, at least in terms of other countries I have lived in. As a foreigner I found it baffling and was delighted when we bought our place to leave behind the yucky rental furniture.

I would just do as a PP suggested & sell off the old furniture, buy your nice new new furniture, then when you leave just get some sofas and things of equal status to the ones you got rid of to re-furnish the rental. There is a pretty big market in crappy rental furniture from what I can see, as a lot of people have this issue.

(Your original sofa, having been bought by a landlord and re-sold by tenants who hate it a thousand times over, will probably be there waiting for you...)

Do not do this without express permission from the ll. You do not know how much the sofa originally cost. Condition can be subjective. If i was your ll and i found out you dumped some of my possessions especially something that is 4 years old, i would look at your deposit for compensation and in affect stealing my item. I may not provide a “glowing” reference either.

Glass fused light

Moomintroll99 wrote: »

The furniture in rentals thing is unique to Ireland, at least in terms of other countries I have lived in. As a foreigner I found it baffling and was delighted when we bought our place to leave behind the yucky rental furniture.

I would just do as a PP suggested & sell off the old furniture, buy your nice new new furniture, then when you leave just get some sofas and things of equal status to the ones you got rid of to re-furnish the rental. There is a pretty big market in crappy rental furniture from what I can see, as a lot of people have this issue.

(Your original sofa, having been bought by a landlord and re-sold by tenants who hate it a thousand times over, will probably be there waiting for you...)

The property is not the propert of the OP. Theft and money laundering are usually poor life choices.