Unpicking lock on parking clamp; opinion?

Irishphotodesk

I believe I may have stumbled on to a somewhat legal loophole,

Question: is it illegal to pick a lock?

Scenario: vehicle has been clamped, lock is picked, no criminal damage, clamp is returned to its owners.

I have queried this with Dublin clampers and was told that if a clamp is removed without payment, the car will be lifted on next occasion, this is the point at which I responded in jest that they would be opening themselves up for litigation as there would be zero proof I had opened the lock or even removed it and removal of the vehicle would be a disproportionate punishment.

There are people who have an interest in lock picking as a hobby, not for any criminal activities.... it’s an area that interests me although I have little experience/knowledge .

deandean

The only time I was ever clamped, the clampers didn't securely fit the clamp. I kicked it out of frustration and saw that I could pull the clamp off the wheel!
I checked it out at the time; I was liable for the fine regardless of whether or not the clamp was affixed to my car.
So if the lock was picked & clamp removed - no difference, the clampee is still on the hook for the fine.

jimmycrackcorm

I wonder about the justification for lifting a car though based only on a previous clamp removal. Unless the car had been parked in an obstructive or illegal manner, this would be simply theft.

I.e. lifting a car parked on single yellow lines during the day is justified but lifting it from a residential parking area that utilises clamping is very dubious

GM228

Lock picking in and of itself is not illegal, however having lock picking tools on your person can be depending on the circumstances. There is an argument to be made (and I made it before) that lock picking could amount to criminal damage in certain circumstances including a clamp, that's certainly the case in the UK but never tested here.

That aside, removing or attempting to remove a clamp placed by a local authority or an agent of an authority is a criminal offence weather or not it is damaged.

When a vehicle is illegally parked clamping is not mandatory, it is optional, they have lawful authority to remove the vehicle if they so wish.

spaceHopper

If it were a private clamper there is no fine it's a removal fee, if you removed it yourself so what. They could go after you but there a lower effort ways of making money like clamping somebody else. I've a set of lock picks and a clear plastic lock, got them for fun and to show my son how locks work. It's not as easy and you think and they use good locks. You might get lucky but I guess you end up paying the release fee.

whippet

Has there ever been a case in Ireland where a private clamping company pursued someone for removing a clamp?

Claw Hammer

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

The case originated when a clamp was removed from a car by its owner on January 5th last year. The judge ruled that the owner was entitled to remove something that was stuck to his car by whatever means and if it damages his car, he was entitled to claim damages.

While there where notices up in the car park informing motorists that clamping was in operation, Judge Harnett ruled that there were no laws to support that notice before dismissing the case.

WITSU expects that WIT will seek legal clarification on this matter and that clamping will continue for now. WITSU welcomes the ruling that clamping is illegal, however does not encourage motorists to park in dangerous or unhelpful positions.

Victor

Claw Hammer wrote: »

district court

Such decisions don't form a precedent. I would also refer you to the Vehicle Clamping Act 2015.

Eric Cartman

there have been cases in the UK where various people have claimed locks were damaged by pickers and ended up with payouts for it. However its about proving you did it I suppose....

L1011

WIT case precedes the commencement of the clamping act. Theres been no challenges to it that I'm aware of let alone precedent setting ones

GM228

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Judge ruled clamping illegal at WIT 18/1/2007
Judge William Harnett ruled at Waterford district court last week that WIT has no authority to clamp the Vehicles of people who park illegally at its cork road campus.

First thing to note is the DC can't make any precedent, such "rulings" basically mean nothing, also that was 12 years ago and things have changed.

Second is the Supreme Court held in the Hussey vs Twomey [2009] 3 IR 293 case that the principles of volenti non fit injuria which are applicable legal principles which can come into play in private clamping still apply in the state.

Third is the Vehicle Clamping Act 2015 provides for both statutory and non-statutory clamping.

Pickman

There are other ways to get the clamp off without damaging it picking would be fastest and cleanest, i honestly cant see how someone could damage a lock with a pick unless they used it to stab it open or it was a uncommon temperseal style lock.

So long as its a private clamping company ,you dont damage the clamp and most importantly give it back and just tell them they need lessons on how to fit them correctly they cant do anything.

They can try scare you about a fine or towing but they wont bother as you gave everything back and probably cant prove the put it on right in the first place. I would still be careful where you park afterwords they might try clamp again.

Ethically you should only pick a lock that belongs to you and is not in use, you should also not be an ass by clamping peoples cars so i guess it evens out in this case.

Claw Hammer

Victor wrote: »

Such decisions don't form a precedent. I would also refer you to the Vehicle Clamping Act 2015.

Who said they formed a precedent? I was replying to a poster who asked if a private clamper had ever pursued anyone. The vehicle Clamping Act 2015 is irrelevant to that question.

Claw Hammer

Pickman wrote: »

There are other ways to get the clamp off without damaging it picking would be fastest and cleanest, i honestly cant see how someone could damage a lock with a pick unless they used it to stab it open or it was a uncommon temperseal style lock.

So long as its a private clamping company ,you dont damage the clamp and most importantly give it back and just tell them they need lessons on how to fit them correctly they cant do anything.

They can try scare you about a fine or towing but they wont bother as you gave everything back and probably cant prove the put it on right in the first place. I would still be careful where you park afterwords they might try clamp again.

Ethically you should only pick a lock that belongs to you and is not in use, you should also not be an ass by clamping peoples cars so i guess it evens out in this case.

You would be an awful idiot to give it back. You would be better off leaving the clamp there. they wouldn't know who took it off and whether it had been locked properly in the first place.

Pickman

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You would be an awful idiot to give it back. You would be better off leaving the clamp there. they wouldn't know who took it off and whether it had been locked properly in the first place.

In the time you leave the clamp and they return to it, it could be stolen or damaged, im sure noone would mind parking ontop of a clamp... and if your unlucky it could be blamed on you.

Claw Hammer

Pickman wrote: »

In the time you leave the clamp and they return to it, it could be stolen or damaged, im sure noone would mind parking ontop of a clamp... and if your unlucky it could be blamed on you.

Rubbish. They have the details of the car they clamped. They take a photo of every clamped car. If someone comes along in a different car and there is a clamp there how can the blame it on that person. They should have a photo with the clam on that car before they could claim that the driver took off the clamp. They won't be coming back anyway because there will be no call for a release.

Nobelium

This is how you deal with scumbag clampers, they even turned up the middle of him removing it, and tried to threaten and intimidate him, but it didn't work. His method was sound, even if the "freeman" stuff was bull.

theteal

“What clamp???”

Carawaystick

GM228 wrote: »

That aside, removing or attempting to remove a clamp placed by a local authority or an agent of an authority is a criminal offence weather or not it is damaged.

When a vehicle is illegally parked clamping is not mandatory, it is optional, they have lawful authority to remove the vehicle if they so wish.

Lets say your car is clamped, and I'm walking along the street and decide ( for whatever reason) to remove it.

If I lift your car, and take the clamp away with the car, is that a criminal offence?
how would a prosecutor prove I knew the clamp was placed by a local authority or its agent?

Peregrinus

Carawaystick wrote: »

Lets say your car is clamped, and I'm walking along the street and decide ( for whatever reason) to remove it.

If I lift your car, and take the clamp away with the car, is that a criminal offence?

Theft of both the clamp and the car, unless I'm missing something. But why, after removing the clamp, would you then take it away with the car? If that's your intention, removing the clamp seems unnecessary.

Carawaystick wrote: »

how would a prosecutor prove I knew the clamp was placed by a local authority or its agent?

A clamp is usually accompanied by a notice setting out who attached the clamp, why, and what can be done about it.