Unfair Dismissal

Damomc1986

Hi

I was dismissed from my Job a number of month's ago whilst working for a large Company.

I made a bad judgement call and when asked about it I initially claimed I had no knowledge of it. It was later discovered that I did have knowledge of the issue that arose. When asked about it by my Manager I panicked and initially denied knowing about it before confessing to my mistake. He advised me that He would speak with his Manager about this and get back to me.

I had become anxious in the role as I was working an earlier shift to the rest of my Colleagues and had become uncomfortable doing this Shift. I had previously expressed this to my Manager but was ignored as it was vital to have someone working this Shift and no one else would do it. I also expressed this concern to my Managers Manager which I have notes to prove my concern.

Nearly 6 Weeks later after I thought the mistake was forgotten about I was invited to a disciplinary meeting with my Manager and someone from HR. I put my case forward and advised that I had made a wrong assumption and apologized. I was never given an indication that this could result in my dismissal. The following Week a Colleague of mine started on the same earlier shift as I was on. I was happy about this as I finally felt I had some support. My colleague started the Shift on the Monday and I was dismissed on that Friday (Not a coincidence I would say). I believe once they had someone to cover this shift that they then were able to dismiss me.

I appealed the decision and brought up about how convenient it was that I was dismissed the same week that someone was able to take over my early shift. I felt that the HR Person involved in the appeal was trying to sidestep this and so did that person who was with me for my appeal. Obviously my appeal did not help me get my Job back. The day after my appeal was heard my old Job was advertised specifically asking to work on the early shift that I had been doing and dated for the following day. I did not get the results of my appeal until 2 weeks later.

I have a lot of information that I feel would help if I was to consult a solicitor about this. I am a bit concerned about bringing this further as if my real name was to get around other companies I feel it may hamper me getting work in the future. I have found a new job so am concerned if I bring this further they will get wind of it and let me go before my Probation period is up.

Does anyone know of a good Solicitor in Galway City or surrounding area. I would like to see where I stand before making a decision on whether to proceed with this.

Regards

Damomc

A couple of things. How long were you working there?

And this new job you've got, is it paying considerably less than what you were earning in the job you got dismissed from?

Actually, one more. How long were you out of work before getting the new job?

nuac

Mod
Sorry no solicitor recommendations allowed here
You should consult a solicitor about this
Leaving open for general discussion subject to forum rules on legal advice

Doff

Damomc1986 wrote: »

I made a bad judgement call and when asked about it I initially claimed I had no knowledge of it. It was later discovered that I did have knowledge of the issue that arose. When asked about it by my Manager I panicked and initially denied knowing about it before confessing to my mistake.

I'm not sure of the magnitude of this judgement call, but I would imagine the greater issue is you flat out lying about it.

Graham

What are you hoping the outcome will be if you do 'bring this further'.

On what basis was the dismissal unfair?

Graham

Graham wrote: »

What are you hoping the outcome will be if you do 'bring this further'.

On what basis was the dismissal unfair?

The OP goes to the trouble to write a long spiel and doesn't respond to help only a few minutes later. The likelihood of being genuine is not good.

Damomc1986

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The OP goes to the trouble to write a long spiel and doesn't respond to help only a few minutes later. The likelihood of being genuine is not good.

Hi

Apologies for the late reply. I worked for the company for 5 and a half years and was just under 2 years in the role.

The judgement call I made was due to something similar happening while in work and the decision within the team was that it was a temporary blip that usually resolves itself. Unfortunately in my case it did not resolve itself this time.

I have owned up to the fact I lied which was born out of panic and a feeling of isolation doing the early shift which I had previously advised my manager and his manager of before the incident. I must also add that my manager lied to me about a change he made to something I was supporting. When I asked him about it he gave me different answers.

The new job I am in is similar money wise but a little under what I was earning.

Regards

Damomc1986

Damomc1986

I was out of work about 10 weeks in total which was mainly due to HR not providing documentation I requested for my appeal and them also taking longer than expected to get back to me. I made my appeal without the full documentation I requested.

I must add that I suspect they are in breach of gdpr regulations as I had not got all the documentation till recently.

Regards

Damomc

Graham

Which parts of that make the dismissal unfair?

Genuine question OP, I'm not trying to deliberately give you a hard time here.

nuac

Any type of appeal or hearing can be stressful.
As your financial loss is small you might be as well to move on with your working life

The company doesn't seem to have followed fair procedure, so you may have a case.

The most you would get in compensation is to recompense you for what you lost out on financially or possibly reinstatement.

If a company doesn't follow correct procedures they are on a sticky wicket. That's on a technicality.

On the other hand you could own up that you also made a mistake and simply move on.

Damomc1986

@Graham. I would like to go into more detail but need to be careful. What I can say is my old job was advertised while I was appealing the decision which meant they were only listening to my appeal because the had to. There was no chance of my appeal being successful.

I accept my mistake but felt the lack of support contributed to my bad judgement call. I also know that my mistake did not result in any business impact as I spoke to a expert who was not aware of the issue as it was on going. If there was an impact they would know about it and engage the person who was on call in my team.

I am not trying to absolve myself of blame but felt it was extremely harsh considering someone previously reported for verbal abuse of another person in that company kept their job.

Damomc1986

Graham wrote: »

Which parts of that make the dismissal unfair?

Genuine question OP, I'm not trying to deliberately give you a hard time here.

Hi Graham

I appreciate your input as you are giving an objective view which I find helpful. I never came looking for sympathy and if I felt the decision was fully justified I would of accepted it and moved on. There are other people who are aware of the situation and felt it was extremely harsh. These are people who would give me their honest opinion so I know they are not saying something they think I would like to hear.

Regards

Damomc

Time

Have you contacted the WRC? You can take a case their anonymously and it does sound like proper procedure wasn't followed, and assuming you had no disciplinary record against you the sanction seems extreme, so you may have a case. The fact that your job was advertised while you were appealing looks really bad too.

Graham

It's a tough one OP. While the decision may have been harsh I can see how lying to cover up a mistake could be seen as gross misconduct.

While you might be able to argue procedures weren't followed fully, it's hard to see what the upside would be for you even if you won that argument. You've already expressed concern that word may get around to other companies, potentially having a much bigger impact on your career.

Given the potentially huge downsides and very limited upside, it's hard to see how it would be a good idea to pursue this.

That's not legal advice btw, it's the kind of advice I'd give to a friend who found themselves in the position you've described.

Best of luck with it whatever you decide OP.

Time

Time wrote: »

The fact that your job was advertised while you were appealing looks really bad too.

I wonder if there's precedent for that being relevant or not? It could be argued that a company was being prudent in putting in place the necessary steps to replace the person going through the disciplinary process if required. It's arguably different to hiring somebody before dismissing someone.

Anyway OP, the max you will make is approx 1/5th your old annual salary, and it's likely to be two years before you see any money if successful. You may win on a technicality based on what you have said. There is also a risk you will lose - no case is guaranteed - and incur significant legal costs.

blackwhite

Damomc1986 wrote: »

@Graham. I would like to go into more detail but need to be careful. What I can say is my old job was advertised while I was appealing the decision which meant they were only listening to my appeal because the had to. There was no chance of my appeal being successful.

I accept my mistake but felt the lack of support contributed to my bad judgement call. I also know that my mistake did not result in any business impact as I spoke to a expert who was not aware of the issue as it was on going. If there was an impact they would know about it and engage the person who was on call in my team.

I am not trying to absolve myself of blame but felt it was extremely harsh considering someone previously reported for verbal abuse of another person in that company kept their job.

Advertising for a replacement before an appeal isn't indicative of anything I'm afraid - especially if they hadn't actually hired a replacement. Once they've held the disciplinary meeting and made the initial decision to dismiss, then they can begin the recruitment process on the basis that no replacement would be in place prior to conclusion of the appeals process.

It would be different if they started advertising before the disciplinary meeting where the decision to dismiss was "made".

Lying to cover up a mistake would generally be considered gross misconduct in a lot of workplaces, so challenging on the severity of the findings/sanction could be tough to win - certainly not something I'd advise a friend or colleague in your exact situation to do.

However, if you've evidence that they 1) didn't follow their own disciplinary process correctly, or 2) had made a decision on the outcome of the disciplinary process before giving a fair hearing then you'd have a stronger case to pursue - but you'd be better to talk to a solicitor before deciding how strong such evidence actually is.

BattleCorp

Did your company only find out about the lie six weeks after the lie was told or did they know immediately but did nothing for six weeks?

It's fair practice to tell employees that the result of any disciplinary meetings could result in dismissal. You should have been told this in advance or at the start of your meeting.

Were you allowed representation at your disciplinary meeting? It's normal practice for an employee to be allowed to bring a colleague to act as a witness.

_Brian

Moving straight to dismissal is a brave move, how can they possibly show due process ??

Was your lying considered gross misconduct ??

We’re you already on a disciplinary for anything else ??

No verbal, no written and straight to dismissal is a brave move, possibly foolish.

Samuel T. Cogley

I'd say dishonesty would be gross misconduct but there do seem to be procedural issues. Speak to a solicitor or as nuac suggests simply move on.

BrokenArrows

Based on the description given by the OP i gather that:

1. They have worked in the company for 5 years, 2 years in the current role and still don't feel confident in doing their job at specific hours of the day.

2. Made a mistake at work of an unknown severity (i assume it was serious).

3. When questioned about the mistake they lied about it multiple times saying they didn't know anything about it.

4. Eventually owned up to the mistake once caught.

Based on the above, and especially the 1st issue i think that your employer just wanted to get rid of you because you were not competent in the role.

Im assuming the mistake was serious enough to cause the company financial or reputation loss.

The company brought you to disciplinary because you lied. You tried to hide the fact that you messed up.

You complain that you were only fired once they had someone to fill the role. Well yes, of course, the company isnt going to shoot themselves in the foot. They needed someone to replace you. Nothing illegal about this.

Everyone makes mistakes at work but you have to be willing to own up to it. (Ive made mistakes at work costing us 20+k in loss, but because i followed procedure and told the necessary people asap it was treated as a mistake and not something requiring disciplinary action and it was never mentioned again (apart from work drinks of people taking the piss out of me for it. )).

You might be able to claim unfair dismissal and get a few thousand in damages to cover your losses on a technicality but the full details of the case will be available to the public detailing how you lied at work to cover yourself which will not work well for you if future employers google your name.

My suggestion is for you to move on with your life, and learn from your mistakes.

If you make a work mistake then tell the necessary people(team leads, managers) and follow whatever procedures are in place.

blackwhite

_Brian wrote: »

Moving straight to dismissal is a brave move, how can they possibly show due process ??

Was your lying considered gross misconduct ??

We’re you already on a disciplinary for anything else ??

No verbal, no written and straight to dismissal is a brave move, possibly foolish.

Due process is following the documented internal disciplinary process (usually investigative meeting, followed by disciplinary hearing if necessary, followed by sanction if appropriate, followed by appeal if requested). The sanction ultimately decided upon at the end of the process has no bearing on whether due process was followed or not.

The escalation of verbal warning, to written warning, to dismissal generally only applies for multiple instances of minor or simple misconduct. Pretty much every company with a documented disciplinary process will reserve the right of dismissal for first offences of gross misconduct.

Lying to cover up mistakes would be deemed either serious or gross misconduct in the vast majority of workplaces, so the OPs best bet is to challenge the process followed (depending on what evidence he does/doesn't have) - challenging the outcome itself wouldn't appear the strongest avenue to me.

PGE1970

Regardless of whether the behaviour warranted dismissal, breaching procedure is enough to bring home an UD case. The decisions in the Lyons and McKelvey cases are relevant.


OP - you will have to bear your own costs in the WRC process. If you quickly moved to a new job on near enough wages than you left, the value of your award, should you succeed, could be minimal.



Future employers might also find out that you have sued your former employer (justified or not).


You should consider this but good luck whatever you do.

BrokenArrows

PGE1970 wrote: »

Future employers might also find out that you have sued your former employer (justified or not).
.

This exactly. If you were actually unfairly dismissed due to no fault of your own or something like that then fair enough.

But if you are looking to win a case based on a technicality then thats what your future employers will see. They will see you made a mistake at work and lied.

Time

BrokenArrows wrote: »

But if you are looking to win a case based on a technicality then thats what your future employers will see. They will see you made a mistake at work and lied.

Thats why the WRC is anonymised, to prevent people who take cases from having it come back to haunt them.

GreeBo

Would it be normal that the employer would effectively replace the OP with someone else before the decision is reached?
I know they only advertised it after the decision, but they put someone else on the OP's shift...
does that prejudice the resulting decision?

Damomc1986

I was asked about the incident 3 days after it happened. I asked for it to be resolved as soon as possible but was told it may take longer due to it happening shortly before Christmas shutdown. I was made aware by my colleague that they would be starting the early shift 2 or 3 weeks before. At this stage I was not invited to a disciplinary meeting.

After dismissal I was getting advice from someone working in HR who felt certain procedures were not properly followed and advised that it is fairly common for large companies to not correctly follow procedure.

At the moment I am swaying towards letting it lie. It is not about compensation for me but a feeling of been ignored by my manager when expressing my concerns which eventually led to a bad decision from me. I understand that I was long enough in the job that I should of been familiar with the app that I messed up with but when you are been ignored and not included in the work it can have a negative impact over time.

My manager had mentioned about a previous issue that had happened. To this day He has never advised me what that issue was even though I asked him to explain it. I have performance review documents that clearly show me asking for more information on this issue. I still don't know what I was accused of.

Thanks for all the comments. I have found this very beneficial.

Damomc1986

Damomc1986 wrote: »

I was asked about the incident 3 days after it happened. I asked for it to be resolved as soon as possible but was told it may take longer due to it happening shortly before Christmas shutdown. I was made aware by my colleague that they would be starting the early shift 2 or 3 weeks before. At this stage I was not invited to a disciplinary meeting.

After dismissal I was getting advice from someone working in HR who felt certain procedures were not properly followed and advised that it is fairly common for large companies to not correctly follow procedure.

At the moment I am swaying towards letting it lie. It is not about compensation for me but a feeling of been ignored by my manager when expressing my concerns which eventually led to a bad decision from me. I understand that I was long enough in the job that I should of been familiar with the app that I messed up with but when you are been ignored and not included in the work it can have a negative impact over time.

Thanks for all the comments. I have found this very beneficial.

For what it's worth I think you're making the right decision. Well done on finding the follow up job. I'm sure it was a nerve wracking 10 weeks. Your previous company would seem to have not treated you fairly, but think of it as a good thing to have got out of there. Good luck.

nuac

Mod
OK, propose closing this unless someone else has a comment

Red Hare

What was the "bad judgment call" that caused the disciplinary?
Also - if you are taking unfair dismissals claim it will need to be within 6 month of the dismissal unless the you have a good reason for the delay/

nuac

Time wrote: »

Thats why the WRC is anonymised, to prevent people who take cases from having it come back to haunt them.

It is a small country; word gets around