Classics and banditry ??

Without mentioning the location. Can anything be done about Classics and out and out banditry. Guys putting a team together and basically going around playing classics and cleaning up. Their home club doesn't seem to be doing anything about their handicaps.

Can the organisers of Classics tell them, sorry you are not welcome as you are affecting the numbers of ordinary golfers willing to enter.

Trampas

Without even going to bandits there’s a lot of pure honesty goes into it also. A team of 4 with nobody checking scores as they play

callaway92

Aren’t you supposed to put up Classic scores etc too now? They should be impacting your handicap

callaway92

callaway92 wrote: »

Aren’t you supposed to put up Classic scores etc too now? They should be impacting your handicap

I hadn't heard that.

I haven't entered any this year yet. I played a lot last year but I'm playing of the lowest handicap I've ever been off now so I feel it's too hard to compete against the guys with 'shots to spare'.

FixdePitchmark

Deleted User wrote: »

I hadn't heard that.

I haven't entered any this year yet. I played a lot last year but I'm playing of the lowest handicap I've ever been off now so I feel it's too hard to compete against the guys with 'shots to spare'.

Went to a few but scoring put me off going again.

One team from South of Ireland . I know their names and all . Never even played in club.

Embarrassing stuff.

Anything I ever enter I want to win. But simply no point in them . I know that is an unusual attitude . But just the way I am.

slave1

Classics should be considered for charity and a nice day out, never even think of prizes in these things, we had an unreal dovetail round a few years back in New Forest, forget the score exactly but convinced we'd get a winning call, didn't finish in the top 15

tritriagain

Gone to the stage now where even four balls are crazy in our club. Fellas who never place in a singles winning every week. Our club now penalise any winners of a team event by cutting them 3 shots in the next team event.

FixdePitchmark

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Went to a few but scoring put me off going again.

One team from South of Ireland . I know their names and all . Never even played in club.

Embarrassing stuff.

Anything I ever enter I want to win. But simply no point in them . I know that is an unusual attitude . But just the way I am.

Same here, I love to compete. But it's too hard when up against a team who may have 10 or 12 shot advantage before even teeing up.

thewobbler

Here we go again. The everyone-else-is-a-cheat thread. Might well be the most recurring thread on boards .

You all need to consider a few things.

Take these conditions:

A warmish summer’s day.

Little or no breeze.

A relaxed atmosphere.

Forward tees.

No pressure to score individually.

Everyone in your group slapping your back for doing anything half right.

No need to beat yourself over a mistake as there’s another 3 men to go, and only 2 scores count.

Getting continual opportunities to score pressure free “bonus” points for your team, with 4-5 points already securely in the bag on the hole.

——

As a concept it suits inconsistent golfers. Most of the things that bury their chances in singles play do not exist.


If you have 35 teams out in those sort of conditions, and 25 of them are replete with medium to high handicappers, then I would go so far as to say 95 points should be expected in a two-highest scores per hole format.

Make the weather less favourable, the pace of play slower, the course a little longer, and things begin to tilt slowly back towards better golfers.

But only slowly.

Remember a 24 handicapper who hits a par on indexes 1-6 gets rewarded with 4 points. A team with this scoring power that dovetails well will always outscore low men.

It’s not cheating though. It’s just a format that suits inconsistent higher handicappers.

FixdePitchmark

Thewobbler

I get your general point . But there are scores of more like 105 + in a 3 person team 2 to count.

These were particularly epic around 2013/2014/2015.

You can go well , teams can have a freak round , yes as a once off .

But most of these teams were from Clare / Tipperary area and the same clubs.

Yes your points are valid for general team competitions . But the Atlantic Coast Challenge had to change scoring format and tried to come up with other ideas to solve issue .

Apparently some of these clubs were investigated by the GUI.

thewobbler

Fixd, I get what you’re saying too.

I just don’t believe that the 105 pts from a threeball scenario is what’s winning the majority of these classics.

I’ve played in dozens of them, and organised a few, over the past 3 years and haven’t heard of scoring like that.

Generally 90 points in a fourball format will put you close, and 95-96 is needed in a large field / good weather situation.

I’ve been in a fourball that hit 52 for the front nine before imploding. So I would generally trust that these cards are being honestly marked (ie if there’s mistakes, they’re honest ones).

——

Or maybe us Nordies are just more honest lol.

mike12

I play a lot of them and if u look up the results there is one parkland course that is just super at the 3 day links events.

The social media events are generally played where they mix up the groups scoring is always more reasonable.

Golfhead65

Any golf comp where you Mark your own card is open to let's say The rubber pencil ! The only way to combat any irregularities is for the GUI to make it mandatory that these scores are made available for handicap considerations

FixdePitchmark

thewobbler wrote: »

Fixd, I get what you’re saying too.

I just don’t believe that the 105 pts from a threeball scenario is what’s winning the majority of these classics.

I’ve played in dozens of them, and organised a few, over the past 3 years and haven’t heard of scoring like that.

Generally 90 points in a fourball format will put you close, and 95-96 is needed in a large field / good weather situation.

I’ve been in a fourball that hit 52 for the front nine before imploding. So I would generally trust that these cards are being honestly marked (ie if there’s mistakes, they’re honest ones).

——

Or maybe us Nordies are just more honest lol.

Your talking about 4 balls

again - these are 3 balls that can post the scores that you are talking about.

Yes the Nordies are more honest than this crowd.

Russman

thewobbler wrote: »

Here we go again. The everyone-else-is-a-cheat thread. Might well be the most recurring thread on boards .
You all need to consider a few things.
Take these conditions:
A warmish summer’s day.
Little or no breeze.
A relaxed atmosphere.
Forward tees.
No pressure to score individually.
Everyone in your group slapping your back for doing anything half right.
No need to beat yourself over a mistake as there’s another 3 men to go, and only 2 scores count.
Getting continual opportunities to score pressure free “bonus” points for your team, with 4-5 points already securely in the bag on the hole.
——
As a concept it suits inconsistent golfers. Most of the things that bury their chances in singles play do not exist.

If you have 35 teams out in those sort of conditions, and 25 of them are replete with medium to high handicappers, then I would go so far as to say 95 points should be expected in a two-highest scores per hole format.
Make the weather less favourable, the pace of play slower, the course a little longer, and things begin to tilt slowly back towards better golfers.
But only slowly.
Remember a 24 handicapper who hits a par on indexes 1-6 gets rewarded with 4 points. A team with this scoring power that dovetails well will always outscore low men.
It’s not cheating though. It’s just a format that suits inconsistent higher handicappers.

Now you know there's no need for sensible talk in a bandits thread
You make some very good points though and they're equally applicable to a fourball as a team event imo. For example, I'd guess that most, if not all, 18 handicappers don't score 18 bogeys in a round, they're far more likely to have 5, 6, 7 or more pars and its the double and triple bogeys that ruin their cards, by and large. In these formats those car crash holes are mostly eliminated so you're left with only having to "use" that person's good golf, or the good half of their round, whereas their handicap is about their 18 holes score in singles. Its apples and oranges.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Thewobbler

I get your general point . But there are scores of more like 105 + in a 3 person team 2 to count.
These were particularly epic around 2013/2014/2015.
You can go well , teams can have a freak round , yes as a once off .
But most of these teams were from Clare / Tipperary area and the same clubs.
Yes your points are valid for general team competitions . But the Atlantic Coast Challenge had to change scoring format and tried to come up with other ideas to solve issue .
Apparently some of these clubs were investigated by the GUI.

I totally get your point too Fix. When its the same players/clubs doing the winning with mad scores, there's clearly an issue. We can all name the well known clubs for it. I didn't know there was an investigation, so hopefully something might change, but I won't hold my breath. Maybe its just cute hoorism at its finest and that a cultural thing that's never going to change quickly as it leads to a "if you can't beat them, join them" kind of mentality.

As regards one off scores, out of 35 teams someone is going to win, so I wouldn't tar all winners, but yes, when there's a pattern there's a problem.

slingerz

surely the only way is the take 3 teams say on the timesheet at 9.00, 9.08 & 9.16 and put one from every group into each time slot. That way everyone is accountable, they play their own ball, return their own score and handicaps are adjusted as a result.

Russman

slingerz wrote: »

surely the only way is the take 3 teams say on the timesheet at 9.00, 9.08 & 9.16 and put one from every group into each time slot. That way everyone is accountable, they play their own ball, return their own score and handicaps are adjusted as a result.

But then its not a team event though ? Players wouldn't know how their partners are doing etc. It effectively becomes a singles and you may as well randomly draw cards together at the end to make up teams. Unless I've misunderstood your point completely !

slingerz

Russman wrote: »

But then its not a team event though ? Players wouldn't know how their partners are doing etc. It effectively becomes a singles and you may as well randomly draw cards together at the end to make up teams. Unless I've misunderstood your point completely !

no your close enough, it is still a 'team' as your scores can be combined at the end and the best 2 on each hole counted but it would be more work for comp organisers.

i take your point that it removes the social, fun aspect of a classic but the amount of people who get worked up over scores and results in this is unreal. I saw a side win our one last year with a 1, 7 & 10 handicap and people were calling them bandits

Seve OB

now yiz are gone from the concept of banditary to pointing the finger at out and out cheating

I genuinely don't think there is a lot indeed if any cheating going on in events like this.

people with (lets just say unethical) distance handicaps etc though that is another story.

PhuckHugh22

Seve OB wrote: »

now yiz are gone from the concept of banditary to pointing the finger at out and out cheating

I genuinely don't think there is a lot indeed if any cheating going on in events like this.

people with (lets just say unethical) distance handicaps etc though that is another story.

Can you explain what you mean by this and why it is unethical?

PhuckHugh22

Russman wrote: »

But then its not a team event though ? Players wouldn't know how their partners are doing etc. It effectively becomes a singles and you may as well randomly draw cards together at the end to make up teams. Unless I've misunderstood your point completely !

Isnt this what they are doing in the JP Pro Am comps they are running all over the place.
Bit of a joke if you ask me.

spacecoyote

Seve OB wrote: »

now yiz are gone from the concept of banditary to pointing the finger at out and out cheating

I genuinely don't think there is a lot indeed if any cheating going on in events like this.

people with (lets just say unethical) distance handicaps etc though that is another story.

Would having an "unethical" handicap not, in essence, amount to cheating?

Russman

slingerz wrote: »

no your close enough, it is still a 'team' as your scores can be combined at the end and the best 2 on each hole counted but it would be more work for comp organisers.

i take your point that it removes the social, fun aspect of a classic but the amount of people who get worked up over scores and results in this is unreal. I saw a side win our one last year with a 1, 7 & 10 handicap and people were calling them bandits

That's it exactly, on their day, with a "going for everything" mentality, a group like that can get hot and legitimately shoot a crazy number.
I do accept there's an issue, big or small, with classics etc., but I also think part of it is old fashioned begrudgery.

IMO people shouldn't take classics so seriously, everyone goes into them with their eyes open. Maybe reducing the level of prizes would help ? or each event coming up with some extra requirement for entry that might weed out the chancers - maybe max handicap or must have a Class 1 player or something, I dunno tbh.

Seve OB

spacecoyote wrote: »

Would having an "unethical" handicap not, in essence, amount to cheating?

yea but no.

proper cheating which is described above with people (with rubber pencils )having to be split up because it is not believed they shot the scores they say they did. So they say they had a par, it is not believed and chances are they had a 5 or 6 and put themselves down for a score they did not have. well these are real cheats that something can be done about. however, i'm not really sure this is all that common.

as for the fella who plays off 18 out of ballygobackwards who last played a qualifying round in 2014, but has been playing every week since and can go around the course beside his house in Dublin in a mere 5 over...…. well, there is not a lot you can do about these guys.

New handicap rules will be interesting. Because in other places around the world who already have similar setups to the proposed changes, well when you play a 4ball or team comp etc, you are still required to finish out and submit your score for handicap purposes. will that be a requirement of the new rules???? remains to be seen I guess

RoadRunner

Seve OB wrote: »

New handicap rules will be interesting

from my very basic understanding of them, I thought that it looked that handicaps will become more volatile. Rising and lowering more quickly. Making it easier and quicker to build your HC - if that's what you want to do

Seve OB

RoadRunner wrote: »

from my very basic understanding of them, I thought that it looked that handicaps will become more volatile. Rising and lowering more quickly. Making it easier and quicker to build your HC - if that's what you want to do

unless there is going to be some kind of cap on how much you can go up. ie currently we can only go up a single shot in a year, will the new system have such restrictions? we don't know yet because they haven't told us all the rules yet. lets hope that there will be some sort of common sense thrown in

gypsy79

There will be a memory factor in the new handicap system that remembers how low you have been and how long ago

Exact workings were tbd last time I read about it

But in theory without this memory handicaps could fly all over place. Theis will make it more stable I guess