Summons - No insurance, failing to produce

Kash

Hello legal eagles!

Late last year I was pulled over for touching my mobile phone while driving, and asked to produce my license. In my extremely flustered state, I didn't notice that my purse fell under the driver seat, so failed to do so. My insurance disk was in the car and up to date. The Garda was very nice to be fair, but asked me to produce my license and insurance at my nearest Garda Station within 10 days.

Thus began the saga of trying to comply:

• Attempt 1 - Day 7: 24H Garda Station is not open 24H
• Attempt 2 - Day 10: No Garda in (rural) Garda Station
• Attempt 3 - Day 10: Garda checks license but advises he needs insurance cert, not disk. Also advises summons could still go ahead as window now expired.
• Attempt 4 - Day 17: Garda checks license again but advises reprinted insurance cert has wrong dates on it (damn you Aviva!!)
• Attempt 5 - Day 20:Garda finally (FINALLY!) accepts the insurance disk, but now says the license will need to be reprinted as it is missing a corner (unchanged since the first visit)

After that, life took over and I kind of forgot about the whole series of events. Until I received 2 summons:

1. Driving without insurance
2. Failure to produce evidence of insurance

I've never been summoned to court before. I'm not sure if i need a solicitor, or evidence that I did the above, or if any of the above matters a jot.

The first offence is not true. The second is technically true, but as I had my insurance in the car at the time, I'm not sure why it was even looked at. Neither summons mention the license which was the sticking point.

Is there anything I should be doing to prepare?

...Ghost...

Not a legal eagle.

Summons does not mention phone, so don't mention it. Just say you were stopped and asked to produce etc etc.

Then explain what happened in the time line. You were insured and your license was valid. Should be easily sorted.

I would have given completely different advice until a recent event. 100% go talk to a solicitor and have him/her represent you in court. Don't listen to anyone that says otherwise.

Duffryman

Am not a legal eagle either, but based on what I’ve seen in covering hundreds of District Court sittings as a newspaper reporter –

The insurance cert that you now seem to have should be enough to see the count of driving without insurance being struck out, assuming of course that it shows your policy was valid on the day you were stopped.

As regards failing to produce – really depends on the Judge. In my experience, most strike these out in such circumstances too. However, some Judges sometimes impose a fine of maybe €50 to €100.

As an aside, it’s worth noting that producing your insurance disc, or having it displayed on the car at the time you were stopped, is not proof that you were insured to drive that vehicle yourself. It’s merely proof that a policy was in place for somebody for that vehicle at the time. That somebody isn’t necessarily the driver.

I agree with the advice talk to a solicitor. Might seem like an unnecessary expense, but is well worth it when you consider the consequences (financial and otherwise) of things possibly going wrong for you in court if you represent yourself. But if you do choose to represent yourself, all I’d say is make no reference or suggestion at all to how ‘life kind of took over, and I forgot about it’. Judges don’t tend to take too kindly to that type of thing.

nuac

Mod
Title amended

vandriver

Touching your phone is not an offence,holding it is

Del2005

vandriver wrote: »

Touching your phone is not an offence,holding it is

Looks like it is.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/act/23/section/3/enacted/en/html

ED E

Touching a mounted phone could lead to a charge if they sent/read a text message as per the 2014 change. Otherwise it'd up to the member to argue you were inattentive.

Otherwise you're issued an FCPN for holding as van driver says.

“ hold ”, in relation to a mobile phone, means holding the phone by hand or supporting or cradling it with another part of the body;

(Off topic)So yes you, mammy with phone on her lap with the gals whatsapp to read at every light, you're committing an offence. Put it away.

Kash

Thank you all. I'm not disputing at all the mobile phone part - I moved my phone from the seat to the holder while driving - I freely admit I was at fault there and have paid the fine and taken the three points.

I agree with the advice talk to a solicitor. Might seem like an unnecessary expense, but is well worth it when you consider the consequences (financial and otherwise) of things possibly going wrong for you in court if you represent yourself.

At the risk of sounding like a fool, where can I find the consequences of being convicted of either offence?

Also, how does one obtain a solicitor and how much is it likely to cost? I hate that cost is a factor, but unfortunately it is.

ED E

I'd like clarification from other posters on this but I believe if you presented at another station within the same Garda District you could have successfully recorded presenting on their log book in time. If this was the case then a Judge may be less sympathetic.

Kash

ED E wrote: »

I'd like clarification from other posters on this but I believe if you presented at another station within the same Garda District you could have successfully recorded presenting on their log book in time. If this was the case then a Judge may be less sympathetic.

I'm rural Clare though. Garda stations are few and far between and they are apparently not open at the time they say they will be on the website (Killaloe is supposedly 24H, but is actually morning and after 5pm). Or if they are open they may not have any Garda in the building. Both stations are a 25-30 minute drive away so I couldn't exactly pop back easily. I genuinely did try.

coylemj

Kash wrote: »

Late last year I was pulled over for touching my mobile phone while driving, and asked to produce my license. In my extremely flustered state, I didn't notice that my purse fell under the driver seat, so failed to do so. My insurance disk was in the car and up to date. The Garda was very nice to be fair, but asked me to produce my license and insurance at my nearest Garda Station within 10 days.

In your 'extremely flustered state' you may have misheard what the Garda said in relation to producing your documentation. You can nominate any Garda Station, it doesn't have to be your local station.

You asked about penalties. The penalty for failing to produce is a small amount of money - what you need to worry about is the offence of driving with no insurance which is a very serious offence. You won't get a jail sentence but there will be a very large fine and penalty points. And when you (as you are obliged to) report the conviction to your insurance company, you can expect a hefty loading on your next renewal.

There are two ways to deal with this situation.....

1. Go early to the court with the insurance cert. which shows that you were insured on the day you were pulled over. Get the prosecuting Garda's name from the summons and when you get to the court, ask one of the Gardai to identify your officer.

Take that oficer aside, briefly explain that there was a mixup (don't go into painful detail) so you didn't produce on time. Show him the cert and ask him to agree that you were covered on the day. When your case is called, step forward and identify yourself, stand there and let the Garda give evidence which hopefully includes the fact that he has inspected your cert and is now aware that you were insured on the day. If he gives a generic set of evidence and fails to mention that you showed him the cert. earlier, step forward, hand it to him and ask him to clarify the situation.

At that point, the judge may decide to strike out both charges or may ask you to explain why you didn't produce. As another poster has advised, don't go into details here, just make some excuse and leave it at that.

2. Get a solicitor.

Del2005

ED E wrote: »

Touching a mounted phone could lead to a charge if they sent/read a text message as per the 2014 change. Otherwise it'd up to the member to argue you were inattentive.

The statute I quoted above mentions accessing the Internet. They updated the law as I though the same till I Googled it

spc78

coylemj wrote: »

1. Go early to the court with the insurance cert. which shows that you were insured on the day you were pulled over. Get the prosecuting Garda's name from the summons and when you get to the court, ask one of the Gardai to identify your officer.

Take that officer aside, briefly explain that there was a mixup (don't go into painful detail) so you didn't produce on time. Show him the cert and ask him to agree that you were covered on the day. When your case is called, step forward and identify yourself, stand there and let the Garda give evidence which hopefully includes the fact that he has inspected your cert and is now aware that you were insured on the day. If he gives a generic set of evidence and fails to mention that you showed him the cert. earlier, step forward, hand it to him and ask him to clarify the situation.

At that point, the judge may decide to strike out both charges or may ask you to explain why you didn't produce. As another poster has advised, don't go into details here, just make some excuse and leave it at that.

2. Get a solicitor.

I had a somewhat similar problem a few years back. Tax checkpoint - tax was out of date by 2 weeks, asked to present valid tax disk at Garda Station within 10 days. Presented within 10 days but found the Garda on duty in the station checking it seemed to be very loose about the whole thing, writing it in a messy log book with loads of other scrawls on it - i was concerned that the Garda who should view it would not actually see it so I asked the Garda to write me out a "receipt" which he reluctantly did. I filed the receipt away and thought no more of it until 3 years later I went to renew my drivers licence and found that it had been cancelled by a district court case 2 years prior - summons sent to nonsense address, obviously I never showed up - summons was for driving without INSURANCE not tax - so in my absence, Judge struck out my licence.

My solicitor served a summons on the superintendent of the Garda Station so I got a hearing in the District Court 2 days later to get the ruling expunged - had documentation from insurance company to show I had insurance on the dates and amazingly I was able to find my receipt from 3 years prior. My solicitor spoke to the court attending Garda prior to the case being called and showed all the docs and explained their f**k up and when the judge called the case, the Garda stood up and stated they wouldn't be challenging it and the Judge expunged the previous ruling. I was able to renew my drivers licence about 2 days after that.

My advice - whenever you have to show anything in a Garda Station - make them sign something to say you showed it.

If you go to court with all your docs in order, and show it to the Garda beforehand as per advice no.1, they will ask the judge to drop it to avoid embarassment for them - they should have never let it go to a summons wasting court time.

coylemj

spc78 wrote: »

If you go to court with all your docs in order, and show it to the Garda beforehand as per advice no.1, they will ask the judge to drop it to avoid embarassment for them - they should have never let it go to a summons wasting court time.

I'd disagree with that statement. The prosecuting Garda is very seldom the cause of the mixup so come the day of the court, he or she is not asking the judge to strike out to avoid embarassment for themselves, they are doing so because they have become aware that the defendant has no case to answer.

If a Garda asks a motorist to produce and they do within the time but 10 days later, through incompetence or bad housekeeping, the nominated station has no record that the documents were produced, you can't blame the original Garda for issuing the appropriate summons.

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

The statute I quoted above mentions accessing the Internet. They updated the law as I though the same till I Googled it

There is no offence related to accessing the internet.

Only the following are offences:-

1. Holding a phone - which as already posted is:-

“hold”, in relation to a mobile phone, means
holding the phone by hand or supporting or
cradling it with another part of the body

2. Reading a SMS, MMS or e-mail.
3. Sending a SMS, MMS or e-mail (but only if actually done via touch).

Simply touching a phone, in a cradle for example, is not an offence, unless your doing so for 3 above.

2 and 3 (which are offences issued under regulations) are problematic and there has never been a successful prosecution for them as there are extreme difficulties proving them, for example 2 is virtually impossible to prove unless you admit reading it.

Del2005

GM228 wrote: »

There is no offence related to accessing the internet.

Only the following are offences:-

1. Holding a phone.
2. Reading a SMS, MMS or e-mail.
3. Sending a SMS, MMS or e-mail (but only if actually done via touch).

2 and 3 (which are offences issued under regulations) are problematic and there has never been a successful prosecution for them as there are extreme difficulties proving them, for example 2 is virtually impossible to prove unless you admit reading it.

Section 3.9 of the statute I posted says Internet access. If it's not an offence why is there a €2k fine?

GM228

Del2005 wrote: »

Section 3.9 of the statute I posted says Internet access. If it's not an offence why is there a €2k fine?

S3 (9) simply defines that an interactive communication function includes accessing the internet, no part of the Act or Regulations issued under it prescribes any offences for accessing the internet or making an interactive communication.

The only offences in the section are under S3 (1) or (4).