Reality of doing up ‘fixer-upper’

PropertyHunt

Hi all,
Been looking into purchasing a four bed home in Dublin for close on six months now, we are mortgage approved and good to go. We are not in a chain and don’t have to sell existing property etc. Obviously, not renting, so not dependent on landlord for accommodation.
We’ve decided to look at purchasing a house in a more settled estate, so not a new build.
Question I have is, I am far from an expert from DIY perspective, no practical skills and realise that in most of the cases of houses we see, they are homes previously housed retired folk etc, so homes need upgrade, varying from paint/windows/carpets etc.
So to people who have been in similar position, how has buying a property in need of work as outlined above, not talking serious structural issues but turning the look from 1970’s to modern enough for family to live in, worked out?
By that I mean how hard to get people to do the work? I’m hearing anecdotally that tradespeople etc only interested in big jobs/not one off houses, and that homes purchased to ‘do up’ are in fact hitting the market again.
Love to get peoples experiences/insight, viewed properties in lovely spots, but they’ve been in need of work so trying to get my head round how the process would work.
One friend of a friend, employed project manager etc, wondering is this the way to go, even if its costs a few bob extra.
Thoughts please.
Thanks in advance.

drunkmonkey

Depends on what has to be done, if it's habitable you can work away at your own pace if you think you can save a bit every now and again to do it bit by bit.
Wouldn't be afraid to live it it and then you'll figure out what you want to do, going in with a bulldozer and project manager could turn it expensive quickly.

Looly8726

PropertyHunt wrote: »

Hi all,
Been looking into purchasing a four bed home in Dublin for close on six months now, we are mortgage approved and good to go. We are not in a chain and don’t have to sell existing property etc. Obviously, not renting, so not dependent on landlord for accommodation.
We’ve decided to look at purchasing a house in a more settled estate, so not a new build.
Question I have is, I am far from an expert from DIY perspective, no practical skills and realise that in most of the cases of houses we see, they are homes previously housed retired folk etc, so homes need upgrade, varying from paint/windows/carpets etc.
So to people who have been in similar position, how has buying a property in need of work as outlined above, not talking serious structural issues but turning the look from 1970’s to modern enough for family to live in, worked out?
By that I mean how hard to get people to do the work? I’m hearing anecdotally that tradespeople etc only interested in big jobs/not one off houses, and that homes purchased to ‘do up’ are in fact hitting the market again.
Love to get peoples experiences/insight, viewed properties in lovely spots, but they’ve been in need of work so trying to get my head round how the process would work.
One friend of a friend, employed project manager etc, wondering is this the way to go, even if its costs a few bob extra.
Thoughts please.
Thanks in advance.

We bought our current house as a fixer upper and are currently sale agreed on a second larger fixer upper.
Our current house needed painting throughout, flooring redone, new bathrooms and tiling, new kitchen and heating system upgrade. Nothing structural or anything. We are very DIY savvy so it worked out well the first time - hence buying a second property needing around the same level of work. If not into DIY, try to get someone who is to look after it... maybe a handyman? Don’t know if a project manager would be interested in such small scale non structural renovations but I could be very wrong. My friend recently bought a fixer upper and neither of them are any way good with DIY... they hired a local handyman to work there mon to fri for about a month, he did most of the demolition type work like pulling out old doors and wood work, dismantling old kitchen and ripping our old bathroom suites, he looked after things like painting and tiling/flooring too. Then they got a kitchen guy in who looked after the kitchen and fitted wardrobes and also put in the new doors and woodwork. Plumber to install new bathrooms and sort out heating. It was a process for them but all worked out beautifully in the end.

PropertyHunt

Thanks a million both for replying so quick.
Your description of your current house sounds like us. If we could source a handyman through recommendations that sounds doable.
Good to know about the Project Manager, and fact a job like this would be too small for them. I should have known.
I think we’d probably stay where we are until works are done.

Looly8726

PropertyHunt wrote: »

Thanks a million both for replying so quick.
Your description of your current house sounds like us. If we could source a handyman through recommendations that sounds doable.
Good to know about the Project Manager, and fact a job like this would be too small for them. I should have known.
I think we’d probably stay where we are until works are done.

We lived in our current home while we did most of the work... It was a labour of love and truthfully took us about 2 years all in all lol! But we were young and excited about it all... this time we are staying put until the new house is done so I definitely think you’re right to do that if it’s an option. Things tend to get put on the long finger after you move in!
Maybe look up Facebook pages for local handymen or ask around for recommendations. It’s not terribly complicated really what needs to be done and would fall into more of a redecorating category than really renovating. Most costly aspect may be plumbing and heating, also can be difficult to source labour in this respect but the rest I think you should be fine.

ScallionAyter

The biggest misconception we had was that you could do up one room at a time, and therefore do the work over a period of years. That's not really possible if there's plumbing, wiring, internal insulation or plastering to be done. Everything has to be done in the proper sequence, and you may have to live without carpet/wood floors for a good long time to avoid them being destroyed. You'll need to be available at the drop of a hat to let tradesmen into the house and make decisions there and then. You need to get good at anticipating problems / questions. You'll need to learn about every aspect of everything that goes into your house to avoid making bad decisions. Take a new en-suite for example - Power shower or Electric? Can your supply take it? Does your tank have enough hot water capacity? What makes are good? Are there any components of the shower that must go into the ceiling or behind the wall? Do i want a false wall for a niche insert shelf? Should the plasterer skim the wall before tiling or tile straight onto plasterboard? Does the plumber tank it or the tiler? Where do i store all the new tiles until the tiler is ready? Do i have to re-enforce the stud wall if i want a fancy floating sink? Am i limited in the kind of light i can put up?

That's just an en-suite.

You'll have to be prepared for a renovation to take over your life until it's complete.

drunkmonkey

lol, power shower, new tank and pump...know that feeling...completely worth it though.

PropertyHunt

PropertyHunt wrote: »

Hi all,
Been looking into purchasing a four bed home in Dublin for close on six months now, we are mortgage approved and good to go. We are not in a chain and don’t have to sell existing property etc. Obviously, not renting, so not dependent on landlord for accommodation.
We’ve decided to look at purchasing a house in a more settled estate, so not a new build.
Question I have is, I am far from an expert from DIY perspective, no practical skills and realise that in most of the cases of houses we see, they are homes previously housed retired folk etc, so homes need upgrade, varying from paint/windows/carpets etc.
So to people who have been in similar position, how has buying a property in need of work as outlined above, not talking serious structural issues but turning the look from 1970’s to modern enough for family to live in, worked out?
By that I mean how hard to get people to do the work? I’m hearing anecdotally that tradespeople etc only interested in big jobs/not one off houses, and that homes purchased to ‘do up’ are in fact hitting the market again.
Love to get peoples experiences/insight, viewed properties in lovely spots, but they’ve been in need of work so trying to get my head round how the process would work.
One friend of a friend, employed project manager etc, wondering is this the way to go, even if its costs a few bob extra.
Thoughts please.
Thanks in advance.

Go in with your eyes wide open. Get an engineer on board and figure out what needs to be done. If it's a 1970s house that hasn't had much done to it, chances are it needs to be rewired, replumbed, needs to be insulated, heating system needs to be changed etc. On top of that, new kitchen, bathrooms, flooring? The list is endless.

My point is that a house of that age often needs a huge amount of investment to bring it up to scratch.

We bought a four bedroom house that was built in 1971 in a mature estate and have just come out the other end of a major refurb with all of the above, as well as a two storey extension. We decided to get all the work done straight away as we had a baby on the way and didn't want to move into a cold house and then have to move out after.

A friend of mine was bidding on a similar property recently and asked me to go through his budget for the works he wanted to do and he had vastly underestimated the cost and would have ended up in trouble had he gone ahead with the purchase.

Dolbhad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Go in with your eyes wide open. Get an engineer on board and figure out what needs to be done. If it's a 1970s house that hasn't had much done to it, chances are it needs to be rewired, replumbed, needs to be insulated, heating system needs to be changed etc. On top of that, new kitchen, bathrooms, flooring? The list is endless.

My point is that a house of that age often needs a huge amount of investment to bring it up to scratch.

We bought a four bedroom house that was built in 1971 in a mature estate and have just come out the other end of a major refurb with all of the above, as well as a two storey extension. We decided to get all the work done straight away as we had a baby on the way and didn't want to move into a cold house and then have to move out after.

A friend of mine was bidding on a similar property recently and asked me to go through his budget for the works he wanted to do and he had vastly underestimated the cost and would have ended up in trouble had he gone ahead with the purchase.

I’d ideally like that kinda of house - but have seen some that to need work. How much all in roughly extra did you spend to get it up to that standard? My main concern is retro fitting the house when your dealing with an E1 BER rating. Not sure how easy it is to do.

JustMe,K

I have a friend who bought a similar house recently. The builder acted as PM in so far as they organised all the other tradesmen (if you want a recommendation, message me). Your survey should have recommendations in respect of work you might have overlooked.

There are economies of scale when doing up the house - if you need new windows you will find it easier to get someone to do the whole house rather than just one or two rooms at a time. You would absolutely want to sort your electrics and plumbing before replastering walls etc, if you are putting extra insulation in you would want to do that at the same time across the house as well rather than room by room. If you are getting a tiler in to do your kitchen and bathrooms, they are more likely to come and do it all together rather than slot in a half day for a small en suite.

It might be worth getting a quantity surveyor in to price the work you think you are going to do, then at least when you are speaking with tradesmen/handymen about doing particular jobs you have a baseline price to work towards and can pick off certain jobs based on your finances.

tvjunki

Dolbhad wrote: »

I’d ideally like that kinda of house - but have seen some that to need work. How much all in roughly extra did you spend to get it up to that standard? My mine concern is retro fitting the house when your dealing with an E1 BET rating. Not sure how easy it is to do.

We did the same thing in 2008 bought a 1970's house that was rented out and very tired as a boiler for an apartment was put into a 4bed house. Gives you an idea as to how bad the house was.

You need to work out what you want and how bad the house is. It can be expensive to rewire and replumb.

You spend in one area and save in others, deals in fixtures fittings, flooring insulation. You go to local material supplier and see if they can come to an agreement with rates.

Get an engineer to view the property and give you a rough costing. If the house is in bits you can gut the place insulate well new wiring plumbing boiler and you will definately move up the ber rating.

We used 7 skips gutting the house(internal walls, flooring was chipboard,plumbing, kitchen removed) you have to take up the floors for plumbing and wiring. We insulated under the raised floor and it now toasty before it was like a fridge.

If you have a e rating you can change the rating easily by changing the boiler but pointless if you dont insulate the walls and attic. Every new item will increase by a point of two. Better to do all in one go than living in that situation.

My sister in law got a guy to build an extension and the main support(load baring wall) was cut out. She would not wait to get it done by someone she knew and went for the is guy as he had no work at the time.

My husband had to go over with props to stop the house from caving in. The upstairs floor dropped by 4inches within a few weeks. She had no kitchen for 5months as it was pulled out by this bad builder. You cannot live in that working environment.

By the way for being transparent my husband is a builder.

LirW

Don't underestimate the amount of money these projects can swallow.
Often there are unexpected things turning up and that can run into the thousands easily.
Get the best engineer on board you can, we found a pretty bad one and after closing we found out the wiring in the house was lethal because the previous owner tinkered with it. One evening my son had a shower and there was water coming through the ceiling. So we knew room-by-room is off the table and a lot more needs to be done than anticipated.
During the work we took off plastered decoration on the chimney breast only to find an exposed flue pipe, a big hole in the wall and everything around it was black from smoke - a proper fire hazard.
The heating system didn't work, as in didn't work at all, because the guy before us ripped his oil tank out and put a back boiler stove in (not properly) and hooked that to the existing system.

Just saying, that's all the fun stuff that can come up and this can turn out very expensive. We still haven't done windows or insulation because we had to allocate money to the more urgent things and couldn't afford more.

But buying in a nice old settled estate in a good location is really hard to beat.

tvjunki

LirW wrote: »

Don't underestimate the amount of money these projects can swallow.
Often there are unexpected things turning up and that can run into the thousands easily.
Get the best engineer on board you can, we found a pretty bad one and after closing we found out the wiring in the house was lethal because the previous owner tinkered with it. One evening my son had a shower and there was water coming through the ceiling. So we knew room-by-room is off the table and a lot more needs to be done than anticipated.
During the work we took off plastered decoration on the chimney breast only to find an exposed flue pipe, a big hole in the wall and everything around it was black from smoke - a proper fire hazard.
The heating system didn't work, as in didn't work at all, because the guy before us ripped his oil tank out and put a back boiler stove in (not properly) and hooked that to the existing system.

Just saying, that's all the fun stuff that can come up and this can turn out very expensive. We still haven't done windows or insulation because we had to allocate money to the more urgent things and couldn't afford more.

But buying in a nice old settled estate in a good location is really hard to beat.

Our house the electric was tinkered with as well. The microwave was wired by the tenant into the cooker power source. One plug socket in the kitchen with 3 double adapters linked in together. Madness. Had to get esb to cut supply. Then our electrician reworked and certified the house. All safe now.

L1011

Have taken a 1972 house from an F to a C3 BER over 7 years - and that should be higher again now due to replacing the door with a higher rated composite/triple glazed, no letterbox and also no vented dryer anymore putting holes in the walls. But its nowhere near done yet - haven't rewired yet but its next on the list as other stuff is dependent on it.

ScallionAyters post about needing to get stuff done in order is the absolute number one thing to do. If you can't stand bare floors for years while you're waiting for the last time they get lifted look for second hand carpet tiles on Adverts or something - I'm still stuck with them in some rooms.

Be prepared for things you never thought of - my main water tank was steel and in relatively poor condition so could have burst and taken down the ceilings upstairs and possibly even downstairs if left long enough; that cost ~500 to get replaced as an addendum to another plumbing job; would have been more on its own.

Sleepy

We bought a 1930's house that was in rag order and have been working away at it for almost 3 years as time and funds allow. We were lucky enough that the plumbing and electrics had been redone back in the 00's when the extension was built but we're still a long way from where we'd eventually like the house to be. We re-painted every room, replastered the front two rooms downstairs where the plaster had come away from the wall, gutted the kitchen and bathroom, re-floored most of the house, replaced the boiler and upgraded the controls (the SEAI grant helped with this) and lots of other bits and pieces: doing what we can do ourselves where we can and getting in trades as necessary. We've been living in it from a few days after we got the plastering done (bare walls for a while).

It'll never get an A+ BER but I think many people are over-prioritising low energy bills at the moment. Simple things like Attic insulation, double-glazing, draft proofing, a boiler upgrade etc. go a long way towards making a house warm enough with reasonable energy bills imho.

I do regret not getting the plastererers to skim a few other rooms while we had them (and the house empty) and not replacing the skirting / architrave in a few of the rooms at the same time but it was an unexpected job at the time and we had to cut our cloth to our measure. I'm now hoping to get some of this work done when we get the windows done (as you usually need a plasterer involved then anyway). We still have one room to do in it's entirety (a downstairs bathroom that's tiled floor to ceiling in an awful brown) and dozens of smaller jobs that we'll get around to as funds allow (I'm currently sorting out the front garden for example - a job that involves hundreds of hours but very little cost).

I think a lot of people over-reach when buying for the first time: a house can be a perfectly comfortable home without a perfect BER rating and showroom condition decoration. A bit of polyfilla, a good coat of paint and a cheap carpet / laminate wooden flooring and new curtains can make a huge difference to a grotty bedroom. The "perfect job" of skimming the walls, replacing the doors and skirting, putting in fitted wardrobes etc. can be put off until funds are there to do them. Buy a house with "good bones" in the best area you can afford and you'll rarely regret it. Buying something A rated and in showroom condition in a less desirable location is far more likely to end in tears imo.

Cyrus

the reality of this work and the scale of it isn't to be underestimated. its pretty easy to spend a lot of money some on items you will have budgeted for and some on items you wont have.

what are you expecting to be able to refresh a house for cost wise?

PropertyHunt

Hi all.

Thanks so much for everyone’s responses, and experiences, it’s been an eye opener. I’d imagine it could be circa 50-100k. Lovely to know what typical rate is? That’s before electrics/re-wiring.

Looly8726 – Plan is we’ll stay in current abode while we do up new home, that can’t have been easy!

ScallionAyter – ‘You'll have to be prepared for a renovation to take over your life until it's complete’, yes, I don’t how this works when two people are in full time jobs and kids, do you get calls on the mobile while at work etc?! I’m probably better off not fully knowing! Ha!

dancinpants – How do I come up with budget for new build? What is the process? Tell estate agent you are interested but want to bring who exactly to view it? An engineer? I’m genuinely clueless.

tvjunki – That is scary regarding the props. Mother of god.

Cyrus – Totally get that point re underestimate. In terms of cost, at a glance of a walk through we’d want to paint the whole house, rip up carpet, either floor or paint it inside and out, new kitchen, new windows whole house. What are we looking at for that

Dolbhad

Dolbhad wrote: »

I’d ideally like that kinda of house - but have seen some that to need work. How much all in roughly extra did you spend to get it up to that standard? My main concern is retro fitting the house when your dealing with an E1 BER rating. Not sure how easy it is to do.

180k to a main contractor. Project came in on time and on budget but even now we have to landscape the garden, build a patio, put in fencing and loads of other bits and pieces. It took over our lives for about 18 months between the purchase and then a long build, but it has been worth it as you can't buy what we have now on the market - large 4/5 bed on a big spacious plot in the city which is very close to everything we need.

PropertyHunt

PropertyHunt wrote: »

Hi all.

Thanks so much for everyone’s responses, and experiences, it’s been an eye opener. I’d imagine it could be circa 50-100k. Lovely to know what typical rate is? That’s before electrics/re-wiring.

Looly8726 – Plan is we’ll stay in current abode while we do up new home, that can’t have been easy!

ScallionAyter – ‘You'll have to be prepared for a renovation to take over your life until it's complete’, yes, I don’t how this works when two people are in full time jobs and kids, do you get calls on the mobile while at work etc?! I’m probably better off not fully knowing! Ha!

dancinpants – How do I come up with budget for new build? What is the process? Tell estate agent you are interested but want to bring who exactly to view it? An engineer? I’m genuinely clueless.

tvjunki – That is scary regarding the props. Mother of god.

Cyrus – Totally get that point re underestimate. In terms of cost, at a glance of a walk through we’d want to paint the whole house, rip up carpet, either floor or paint it inside and out, new kitchen, new windows whole house. What are we looking at for that

If you are interested, get an engineer in to survey the house - he'll produce a report for about 400e and advise on structure and any other obvious issues.

If at that stage you are still interested, decide if you are going to need an architect, engineer or both to design and manage the project. A QS will cost what you want done and get you a price. If you are using a contractor (always advisable under supervision of trustworthy engineer if as you say you are inexperienced) then send job out to tender and you will get the true cost of the job in the current market.

You have to decide what your budget is and be ruthless in sticking to it. A friend budgeted 70k for a similar project but changed so much during the project it cost 150k. As I said, we decided to get as much as we could done while the house was being ripped apart and we came in exactly on budget so we planned for everything and there were no surprises.

SozBbz

I went to view a fixer upper yesterday and to be honest the potential for it to be a money pit kinda of terrified me.

Its a 1940s bungalow (semi d, on a corner plot) in a mature, leafy area. Circa 140m2.

Things I don't like...
- corner plot (back garden is smaller than ideal and the front garden is lovely but would probably take a lot of work to maintain and I just don't see the point in front gardens really)
- They did the upstairs and put in 2 bedrooms and a shower room but I don't think they're done a great job. The shower room in particular is extremely small and awkward.
- The overall layout. Even the way the stair case was put in to access upstairs is awkward. I'd also think the garrage (which is probably to small for modern cars anyway) could do wiht being absorded into the house to make the kitchen/dining room a decent size.
Not sure how I feel about having bedrooms downstairs.

Its on at €575k, and has already been reduced by €50k but I couldnt see it costing less than €100k I'd want to strip it back to its bones and redesign the entire layout, and then of course. Part of me thinks that we could through in a cheeky offer of €500k but couldnt justify paying more than that. I've no real idea how much stuff costs but I'd have to think a lot.

There are a lot of neighbouring houses on the road that are modern and look recently done, and they look lovely, but I'm not sure we're up for the risk/hassle of it all.

Cyrus

PropertyHunt wrote: »

Cyrus – Totally get that point re underestimate. In terms of cost, at a glance of a walk through we’d want to paint the whole house, rip up carpet, either floor or paint it inside and out, new kitchen, new windows whole house. What are we looking at for that

its kind of a piece of string qn,

paint the whole house, depends on the quality of paint and quality of painter, do you need all the woodwork done as well? internal only or external as well, literally could be anything from say 5k to 15k

flooring - laminate, solid wood or engineered, tiles? all depend again on what you want, solid wood flooring budget 100-110 a sqm fitted.

New kitchen - ikea or upmarket 5k - 55k!

new windows - upvc or aluclad again massive price differential

Toyotafanboi

This thread caught my eye.

We were in the same boat around 18 months ago, new build A rated semi-d or there was a 60's bungalow on a half an acre that hadn't seen any updating since the day it was built, structurally mostly ok but needed re-wiring, re-plumbing, heating, insulating, complete decorating, kitchen, bathrooms etc. Like yourself, we were lucky in that we weren't renting so weren't under huge time or financial constraints that way. Both houses were priced within 10k of each other.

The best advice that I read on here was to double your intended refurb budget and quadruple your intended refurb time frame and if your still ok with the idea, then go for it. At the time I thought it was crap advice :pac: but 12 months into the works and it's pretty accurate IMO. We didn't go with a builder or architect, we have been managing everything ourselves.

No regrets and would highly recommend it. It has certainly been testing between the two of us, physically, mentally, financially and any other way you can think of. It's also all consuming, we often joke now about "what will we ever talk about when the house is finished", it's every conversation over breakfast, lunch, dinner, phone call. Every free hour is something to do with the build, whether shifting rubble on site or in the builders providers paying €200 for 10 boxes of screws to hang €800 worth of timbers that you've never heard of and are never going to see again. The other ball breaker that gets worse over time is paying a mortgage for a number of months or years, knowing you are a home owner and having to continually tip toe around living back with your parents or in-laws until the house is habitable.

The below also seems like very good advice. Every screw, nail and washer has to be chosen by you. Doing things one room at a time in terms of the mechanical refurb isn't really practical as heating/ plumbing/ wiring/ plastering is all easier and cheaper done as one bulk lot. The only thing that can be done room by room is decorating and finishing and in all reality, by the time you get to this point, there'll be SFA left in your budget for it anyway. You'll be aiming to have the kitchen, master bedroom and en-suite done and to hell with the rest.

ScallionAyter wrote: »

The biggest misconception we had was that you could do up one room at a time, and therefore do the work over a period of years. That's not really possible if there's plumbing, wiring, internal insulation or plastering to be done. Everything has to be done in the proper sequence, and you may have to live without carpet/wood floors for a good long time to avoid them being destroyed. You'll need to be available at the drop of a hat to let tradesmen into the house and make decisions there and then. You need to get good at anticipating problems / questions. You'll need to learn about every aspect of everything that goes into your house to avoid making bad decisions. Take a new en-suite for example - Power shower or Electric? Can your supply take it? Does your tank have enough hot water capacity? What makes are good? Are there any components of the shower that must go into the ceiling or behind the wall? Do i want a false wall for a niche insert shelf? Should the plasterer skim the wall before tiling or tile straight onto plasterboard? Does the plumber tank it or the tiler? Where do i store all the new tiles until the tiler is ready? Do i have to re-enforce the stud wall if i want a fancy floating sink? Am i limited in the kind of light i can put up?

That's just an en-suite.

You'll have to be prepared for a renovation to take over your life until it's complete.

drunkmonkey

Put in a pressurised water system, big ass water tank that can handle rain showers. That's a new water tank, water pump and some plumbing.
Wouldn't bother spending anything on the heating system unless it packs in. It's a long pay off on switching from oil. Money would be better spent on some insulation starting off as it'll need to be done anyway
Toyota's right, bedroom, kitchen, bathroom the rest can wait. That much could be 50k alone though.
About 6yrs in and still main bathroom and 1 ensuite left to modernize, but I've kinda become attached to the 20yr old tiles, very Greek looking with young maidens pouring water on each other, the Mrs hates it.
Cosmetically running around painting everything brown into white can knock years off a place.
If it's got wooden floors look at saving them rather than ripping them all out and replacing with tiles/laminate, it's a crime in my book.

ednwireland

bought our house 22 years ago only last summer did we get the funds to rip out the upstairs of the old house (it had been rewired and re-plumbed), also got the tarmac done nd the bathroom replaced !

in my defence we just didnt have the money we got the house to a liveable spec, where heating and electrics were done, didnt even have tiled floors (that took 5 years)

depends what you want

oh the house did only cost 30k (plus the same again in initial renovations plus a chunk to keep the other house rentable plus the same again now to get the other bits done